pregnancy podcast | Gold Coast Doulas

Gold Coast Doulas Saturday Series: Comfort Measures for Labor, Breastfeeding, and Newborn Survival Classes. goldcoastdoulas.com/events

Saturday Series of Classes: Podcast Episode #102

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Classes / Alyssa Veneklase / babies, babycare class, birth doula, birth support, bottle feeding, breastfeeding, breastfeeding class, childbirth classes, childbirth education, gold coast doulas, IBCLC, kelly emery, lactation consultant, newborn care, parenting class, pregnancy podcast

Kristin Revere, Kelly Emery, and Alyssa Veneklase talk about their Saturday Series of classes offered through Gold Coast Doulas. Each goes in to detail about what their classes cover including Comfort Measures for Labor, Breastfeeding, and Newborn Survival. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I am Kristin, and I’m here today with Alyssa and Kelly, and the three of us teach our Saturday Series of classes. So we’re going to talk about what each of our classes are and a bit about what we’re doing during COVID. So welcome, Kelly, and welcome, Alyssa.

Kelly: Thank you.

Alyssa: Hey. So, yeah, we could kind of talk first about why we — so we used to teach all of our classes separately and have different days and different times, but then we had clients who were taking a breastfeeding class and my newborn class, and they would be on separate days, separate times, and we know how hard it is for people to coordinate their schedules. So doing them all at once in a series on Saturday, and then Kristin adding on her comfort measures — you know, having three classes — it’s hard to find three nights in a week that either a pregnant person or a couple can both get off to take these classes.

Kristin: Right, and some of our clients work nights, and if they have other children at home, childcare has been easier to find on a Saturday than a weeknight. So that’s part of why we adapted to this format, and it’s also helpful that the Saturday Series is ala cart, so a client or student could sign up for just Kelly’s breastfeeding class or, you know, just the newborn class or all three. Or they can take them at different times, since we offer the classes every couple months. A client could take a class in September and then down the road later in the year take breastfeeding, for example, as it gets closer to their due date.

Alyssa: And for the students who do choose all three and do them on the same date, it can definitely be a long day. When we were doing the classes in person, we had a lunch break and then another break in between. But the feedback we’ve gotten so far is that people really like knocking these out one after another. And then because of COVID, they’ve been virtual, so that’s actually been kind of nice. They don’t have to leave their sofa. They can feel a little bit more relaxed, grab snacks. So that’s worked out well, too. But our next series is in September, and we plan on doing it in person for the first time since COVID, but that could change at any minute, depending on…

Kristin: Right. And our office is in Eastown, and we’ve talked about having a smaller class size and how we’re going to pivot due to COVID and all of, you know, the sanitation that will need to be done. But our Zoom classes have been going well. I wasn’t so sure about the fact that Comfort Measures is so hands-on, how that would work virtually, but the students seem to enjoy it, and they were hands-on as I instructed virtually. So it went over pretty well the first time.

Alyssa: Same with breastfeeding. How does that — you know, you had said, Kelly, that it was going well virtually, but were you a little bit nervous at first about, you know, like, how do you show a position and, you know, what a proper latch might look like, through a computer?

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, that was something — speaking of pivoting, we had to do pretty quickly because people were still having babies and they’re still learning to breastfeed. That is not something in life that can just stop. So, yeah, getting up and going on the Zoom and all the technology was rapid, and it was — it’s pretty slick. You know, what I do is just like in the in-person classes, I show videos, and so I can share my screen. I show videos, clips of things that — it will make more sense when they actually have their baby, but I think instead of me just talking about it, showing a visual and the videos and all of the pictures that I have. I have just a slew of pictures over my 20-some years of doing this, so it’s able — the people are able to really see what I’m talking about better when I share my screen. So it’s all actually working out, and the parents love it. And, you know, they love being together in a class together, but also I’ve gotten great feedback about the Zoom classes, that they love that they can just sit on their own couch in their pajamas and eat dinner, you know, or eat a meal and have Dad be right there with them, as well. So it’s all working out.

Alyssa: Well, Kristin, do you want to talk about — so the series kind of starts with the Comfort Measures. Then it’s Breastfeeding, and then Newborn Survival. So you want to maybe in that order talk about each of our classes and what they’re about?

Kristin: Yes. So Comfort Measures is a hands-on class that the couple is encouraged to attend, but certainly I’ve had the birthing person attend without a partner, as well. And so we go over breathing, relaxation, and it definitely doesn’t replace a traditional comprehensive childbirth class. I’m not going to cover the stages of labor in two hours. But it’s more about different positions that will relieve discomfort, both while they’re at home, if they’re birthing in the hospital, in the early stages of labor, or positions to utilize further along in labor in the active stage as well as the pushing stage. And we do cover breathing, as well.

Alyssa: So is it more to have the partner understand what’s going on and allow the partner to offer these comfort measures?

Kristin: The partner does learn how to do some of the different measures. Hands-on massage, light touch massage is covered. We go over hip squeezes and a lot of the doula tools, just a variety of positions, like hands and knees and leaning up against a wall and dancing, sort of rocking in labor, as well as, you know, using the birthing ball. And then we talk about different positions that they could consider pushing in, like squatting and sidelying. And I answer questions, and there are some handouts that they use to just get a comfort level for where the partner and the birthing person are at as far as what their expectations of birth are and how comfortable they are supporting a partner. So there’s a lot of communication in the short class, as well.

Alyssa: And Kelly, what about your class?

Kelly: It’s called Breastfeeding: Getting a Strong Start, and it’s a lot about — my goal, anyway, is to get the mom and her partner comfortable and feeling confident about at least starting out. You know, I think it’s sometimes overwhelming. It is a three-hour class, so it is a long time, and a lot of content is covered, but my goal is not to, like, overwhelm the parents with, like, what to do over the next, like, two years of breastfeeding or whatever, like that. Because I think people in this moment when you’re pregnant, especially, you can take little chunks of information that are going to be relevant to you in the moment. And so just getting off to a strong start, at least to get you through those first early days and weeks, you know, of breastfeeding, and then let you exhale a little bit and kind of find your answers as they are relevant to you is something that I’ve found over the years of doing this, honing, about what moms really want to know and what they need to know in the beginning. So I might go over — I’m a really strong proponent of going over anatomy in the beginning, just because I think if moms know how their breasts work and how their babies work, they can figure out — they can put a lot of these dots together and make it make sense for them in their situation. So, for instance, one of the first things I talk about in anatomy is, like, in our middle school health ed class, we skipped right over the breasts, I’m quite sure. You know, they talk about your periods and, you know, maybe some birth control. I don’t know. I don’t even remember what they all talked about. But I don’t remember talking about lactation or anything about the breasts other than that they get bigger, and then you wear a bra. That’s about it. And so I’m like, wait, wait, wait. This is an incredible two glands we have here that sustain life. They have so much to do and so much to contribute, and they’re kind of a natural next stage of being pregnant is lactating. So it’s kind of all jumbled up together there, and I feel like in our society we kind of — as women, we’ve kind of not learned a lot about our breasts. So I talk about what’s happening while we’re pregnant, what happens in the first couple days after delivery, and then how lactation and how their breasts change and make milk and all these other wonderful things that they do in the days and weeks, you know, after delivery. Yeah. So I’m big on helping women know about their bodies and then seeing how it works, and then I think it’s less of a mystery when things unfold because we just — you’re like, oh, yeah, we talked about. That’s what I’m supposed to be doing, or that’s what my breasts are supposed to be doing. Those little bumps on my areola, they mean something and they do play a role.

Alyssa: What do those mean?

Kelly: Those are your Montgomery glands, and they enlarge, you know, when you’re pregnant. They secrete a couple things. One is — it’s almost like a self-cleaning oven. One is that they secrete the substance that kind of — it’s an antimicrobial, so kills bacteria. It kind of keeps your nipples clean and your areola clean so you don’t have to scrub them. A long time ago, like back in the ’50s, we used to think you had to scrub your nipples, and believe it or not, we would put alcohol on them before the baby would — like, we would sterilize your nipples, like we did with bottle nipples, before we would put the baby on you. Just ridiculous. And come to find out, you know, Mother Nature’s already taken care of that with those Montgomery glands. Another thing that they do is they secrete — it’s an exocrine gland, which means it excretes something, you know, kind of like a sweat gland. So they also secrete something that kind of keeps your nipple from drying out. Keeps it kind of supple and moist.

Alyssa: Kind of lubricated a little bit?

Kelly: Yeah. So all of those things — and one of the reasons I mention that is when moms think, oh, I have to buy some lanolin or some nipple ointment, those things are fine if you want to use them, but just use them just on your nipple. You don’t have to smear it all over your areola because they can — if you smear up too much, they can block off those Montgomery glands, and then they can’t do their job. So that’s one of the first things I talk about because it’s one of the most visible things you see when you get pregnant is your areola gets the little bumps on them, and then they darken and, you know, all of these things happening. And then the next thing, the other part, huge part of the class, is getting the partner involved. The baby’s other parent is going to be a huge part of breastfeeding, and I go over the research of how statistically, whether breastfeeding works or not has a lot to do with the mother’s partner and the worth that they feel and that togetherness. And I joke that, you know, they’re going to be with you at 2:00 a.m., not me, and they’re the ones who know what motivationally you need to hear in the moment. You know, what gets you — what makes you feel better. What kind of cookies do you like? What do you need in that moment? And the partner is more tuned into that than I am, of course, you know. So I can give some technical advice if I’m working with you postpartum to help with breastfeeding, but the partner is going to be there to be the other really important team member, and so that’s why I super, super encourage them to come to the class. The in-person class or the Zoom class, any kind of class, so there’s four ears listening to all of this and not just two. For the mom to have to listen to it and then go back and regurgitate it all, you know, it’s another burned on her, and she may forget things. And I spend a lot of the time giving advice about what dads and partners can do to be helpful because I think they feel like they’re on the sidelines and they can’t be a part of breastfeeding. And so I totally dispel that, and I give them lots of things, you know, concrete things that they can do that can be very helpful to breastfeeding.

Alyssa: I know that everyone who’s taken your class has told me they love it. They think you’re just so knowledgeable, and they had no idea about all these things, and they definitely go into it feeling more confident.

Kelly: Awesome. That’s my goal.

Alyssa: Was there anything else you wanted to say about your class?

Kelly: Well, I just want to say that I love being part of this entire series because knowing that I’m part of blending it together, like the big picture — like, the labor feeds into the breastfeeding. The breastfeeding really ties closely with the newborn survival. They’re all so well-interwoven that I think it’s great for the parents to have all of this information at once or, you know, dole it out as they need to, but just to have all of the information because then they get a sense of the bigger picture, I think. It just makes total sense when all of these are taken together. So I’m happy to be a part of this series, for sure.

Alyssa: We’re happy you are a part!

Kristin: So at what stage in pregnancy would you suggest someone take your breastfeeding class? And I’ll also ask the same question of Alyssa and then answer that myself.

Kelly: I would say the seventh month. I wouldn’t wait to the last month because there’s a lot going on, you might go early, blah-blah-blah. But, you know, you can take it in your ninth month, for sure. But, yeah, I would say the third trimester would be good, start of the third trimester.

Kristin: Alyssa? What would you say for Newborn Survival?

Alyssa: You know, I would say third trimester, too, just so that this all is fresh in their heads. The only problem is waiting that long, we do go over some items that are — you know, like baby registry items. And by that point, usually they’ve already registered or had baby showers and gotten everything. So that makes that a little bit irrelevant. We still go over it, and I tell them, you know, keep things in packages with tags on. If you don’t use them, you can always return them. So we still go over it, but I think to do it any earlier, you’d kind of forget all of the stuff we’ve gone over.

Kristin: I would say ideally the third trimester, though I’ve had students take it in the second trimester and still retain the information and practice the hands-on techniques that they learn. A lot of my students also have doulas within Gold Coast or are working with me directly, so, of course, the doula is a great reminder of the different positions and comfort measures for labor and also some of the relaxation techniques that we learn. And, certainly, you know, as far as who should take the class, we are also quite different from other childbirth education classes in that many are suited — just like Bradley method, for example, just for one type of birth. Like, for those seeking an unmedicated birth. For Comfort Measures, I have clients who want an epidural as soon as they get to the hospital or, you know, are having a home birth or are seeking an unmedicated hospital birth, so a variety of situations. And, Kelly, I know that you have students who want to pump, and you do, of course, have the pumping class, the back to work pumping. But it’s not for one type of parent or birthing person. I know, Alyssa, you have everyone from attachment parents taking your newborn class to those who are more mainstream in parenting style.

Alyssa: Yeah. You kind of have to be open to all of the options and all of the parenting styles. I would say, you know, for yours, it’s important. Kelly, you know they’re going to breastfeed if they’re taking your class, or at least going to attempt it. And I don’t know in my class, so I go over if they’re not breastfeeding. We’ll go over bottle feeding. Maybe they want to just pump exclusively and bottle feed. I go over it very briefly. Sometimes I can completely skip it because they’ve also taken your class, Kelly, and I don’t need to go over anything.

Kelly: I think with my breastfeeding class, you’re right, there are some moms who just want to pump and bottle feed, and we do go over working and bottle feeding and how to combine all of that, for sure. But even the part about the anatomy that I was telling you about, it’s good for the moms to know the anatomy of how, also, to maximize that with a pump, because there are ways — the ways that some of our hormones work with a baby, trying to also trigger those with a pump takes a little bit of knowledge, you know, and a little bit of practice. So even if you’re not going to breastfeed, knowing about your breasts and how they work would benefit you even if you’re going to be pumping, because then you can work with a pump to work with your anatomy and how all of the pumping and maintaining your milk supply goes together.

Alyssa: I feel like I should sit through your class. I haven’t sat through yours, and I always love having a refresher on breastfeeding because when I’m working with sleep clients, we talk about feeding a lot. So I feel like I should put the next September Series class on my calendar to sit in yours.

Kelly: I know, and I should — I want to learn more about your sleeping, too, because that’s a big question when it comes around to breastfeeding. They are so intricately tied together.

Alyssa: So my Newborn Survival class, I started or I created because, you know, working as a postpartum doula — I don’t anymore, but when I did, you start hearing the same questions and same concerns from the parents over and over. If only someone had told me this! Why didn’t I know that? How come nobody told me that this would happen? When you start hearing the same things over, then I’m like, yeah, I had these same concerns and questions and fears when I was a new mom, too. So I just kind of started compiling all these things and talking to experts and put this Newborn Survival class together, and it has real-life scenarios. Like, things that happened to me, things that happened, you know, in my work, and how do we deal with these? And then it’s very — you know, we do talk about, hey, has anyone changed a diaper? If they haven’t, we’ll show them. But that’s probably the most surface level type stuff. I want to get into, hey, babies cry. There’s no way around it. How do we minimize that? What do we check for? And how do you communicate? Like, you and your baby are a team, and from a very, very young age, they are communicating with you, and you need to figure that out. So just giving them really pragmatic steps to — you know, the first few weeks, your baby’s just going to eat, sleep, poop, pee. That’s about it. But once, you know, six weeks rolls around, there’s kind of this schedule forming. You probably have a pretty good idea of when they want to eat. Maybe you start to see some sleep patterns forming by six to nine weeks. And then if they’re crying, what does that mean? What causes that crying? How do we stop that crying? What happened when the crying started? And then talking a lot about feeding. People usually want to ask me a lot of sleep questions, even though this isn’t a sleep class. We go over sleep. But a lot of it’s, well, you know, if my baby’s not sleeping well, do I just let them cry? Never, never, never is my answer; never. No. We don’t just let them cry. But if they’re not eating enough, no amount of letting your baby sit in that crib will do any good because they’re hungry. So we talk a lot about feeding, whether it’s breastfeeding or bottle feeding. And then we go over things like, you know, common skin issues. Like, everyone always gets weirded out by cradle cap and baby acne and maybe some rashes, diaper rash. And then like I mentioned, we go over some things that are not worth spending your money on. Here’s some things you really need. And then talking, too, about the partners keeping communication open and setting goals and expectations for each other ahead of time, because once that baby comes, you don’t have the time or mental wherewithal to be dealing with that in the moment at 3:00 in the morning. So if you have these expectations set ahead of time, it’s really important. And then obviously talking about, you know, letting them know that there are resources available. They don’t have to go through this alone. There are — you know, Kelly’s a lactation consultant. She can do an in-person or a Zoom visit. We have postpartum doulas who work day and night. All these resources are available to them. And then we go over a lot of soothing methods. I show them my swaddling methods. And we talk about bathing, too. Bathing is a big one for parents that they’re usually kind of freaked out about. But yeah, it’s just kind of how to survive those first few weeks or months home with a new baby because it’s a little bit scary when you walk through that door for the first time holding a human that you have to keep alive.

Kristin: Great summary! So let’s talk a little bit about — again, we mentioned breaks within the format and a little bit of the timing structure of each class. So the Saturday Series usually starts off with my Comfort Measures class. We have switched our schedule a few times, but my class is two hours from 9:00 to 11:00, and then there is a lunch break. And then we get into Kelly’s class. And, Kelly, you mentioned your class is three hours. And then there’s a short break, and then Alyssa has an hour and a half for Newborn Survival.

Alyssa: Yeah. I think there’s a half an hour break to grab a snack, go to the bathroom.

Kristin: Right. And then as far as the fee for the class — again, the classes are a la carte so you could purchase one class or all three, and each class is $75. And traditional insurance does not cover the Saturday Series, but if a student has a health savings or flex spending, most plans do cover childbirth classes.

Kelly: And I would add, Kristin, on the same for breastfeeding classes. As part of the Affordable Care Act, breastfeeding support and supplies and education should be covered, and I provide a superbill for my class as well with all of my codes and my tax ID number and everything that they would need to self-submit.

Kristin: Fantastic. And, Kelly, did you want to touch on your pumping class that’s separate from the Saturday Series?

Kelly: Yeah. I have a class for moms who want to go deeper into just the pumping. During my Saturday Series, I will go over some pumping and working and everything, but to dive deeper into that of what that looks like on a professional level and an emotional level, like leaving your baby, what that’s like, and if I have to travel, and how do I maintain a milk supply and what if my milk supply goes low? Lots of little details swirling around. If you’re still having, you know, after this class, if you’re still having questions about that, or if you want to skip over the whole breastfeeding class and just do the pumping and working one, I have a class, and you can just go to my website and you’ll see. It’s called Work Pump Balance, and it’s an almost-three hour class in and of itself. It’s self-paced modules that you can go through, and it’s myself and then a — my friend Mita, and she pumped for a year for both of her kids and worked full time. She had a very demanding career in a very male-dominated industry, and she made it work. She gives a lot of insight about how — you know, a lot of the laws have changed since she’s done it, so that only benefits moms even more. But how to logistically travel and calling clients and work around this when you’re really the only female in the whole — it’s a big company, but you’re the only female around. So, yeah, we dive deeper into that.

Kristin: Fantastic. And Gold Coast also offers a private multiples class for any of our clients or students who are expecting twins or triplets. So we do offer each of the individual Saturday Series of class privately, since our Series is offered every couple of months. There is the option of taking just breastfeeding privately through Zoom and/or, depending on COVID, in person. So did each of you want to — I know, Alyssa, you just recently taught a newborn class on Zoom.

Alyssa: Yeah. We just did a private one because they were being induced this week. So we just did it last week. Yeah. It’s great. It kind of allows the couple an opportunity to ask the questions that they might be afraid to ask in front of other people, although I feel like with my class specifically, I make it very clear that there’s no such thing as a stupid question, and I think most of the students do feel very comfortable asking anything. But it’s just a little different when it’s just me with one couple. They can ask whatever they want freely. And I do get told that it’s nice for them to learn the same techniques together so that it’s not, you know, one person saying, well, I think we should do that, and I think we should do that. You know, they can kind of take all the information I’ve given and make their own decisions from there based on what they’re comfortable with. So I’ve been told several times that they like that they’re hearing the same information together and not different information from different people at different times.

Kristin: That makes sense, and yeah, it is nice that if someone wants to take a class last minute or wants the individual attention. My students have enjoyed just being able to customize the comfort measures based on what their birthing goals are.

Alyssa: Yeah. So if anyone wants to register, they can go to our website and register for, like we said, one, two, or all three. We also have the Multiple class and a HypnoBirthing Series. And you can always reach out to any of us with questions.

Kelly: I appreciate you doing this, and I’m looking forward to the next class in September.

Kristin: Thanks for listening to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. You can find us on SoundCloud, iTunes, and on our website. These moments are golden.

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Fertility and Acupuncture: Podcast Episode #101

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / birth support, fertility, gold coast doulas, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, pregnant, stress and pregnancy

Today Kristin talks to Vikki Nestico, R.Ac of Grand Wellness Acupuncture. We learn a lot about fertility and how acupuncture supports the nervous system, reduces stress, and increases blood flow to the reproductive organs. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Hi, Vikki!

Vikki: Hi, how are you?

Kristin: I’m good. Good morning!

Vikki: Good morning.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, and I’m here today with Vikki from Grand Wellness to talk about fertility and acupuncture. So welcome, Vikki!

Vikki: Thanks, Kristin! It’s good to be here.

Kristin: So tell us about yourself before we begin.

Vikki: Well, I am an acupuncturist, and I own a holistic care clinic here in Grand Rapids called Grand Wellness. And we’ve been here for about six years. So it’s been wonderful being here. Previously, I had moved here from New York City where acupuncture is used very often, and so moving here, it’s been wonderful to see it growing and holistic health in general just growing every year by leaps and bounds. So it’s been really wonderful.

Kristin: And I think we met when you first moved to Michigan through a mutual friend.

Vikki: Yes. Absolutely, yes. That was quite a while ago.

Kristin: Yes. It sure was! We’re glad to have you here, and I love seeing how well your practice is doing.

Vikki: Thank you! Yeah, so we work with a lot of different conditions here at the office, but, you know, a group that I really enjoy working with are couples who are trying to conceive. It’s very rewarding to work with these women and men who are trying to conceive naturally or maybe they’re using IVF or anywhere in between.

Kristin: Sure. Take us through the process of how a couple would work with you as they’re trying to conceive, whether they’re using natural methods only or if they are going through a fertility center, for example, and want a mix of holistic and medicine.

Vikki: Yeah. So we really meet each couple or mother at whatever place they’re at. So, you know, optimally, you know, as soon as they have a little glimmer in their heart that they would like to start a family, that’s when we love to start seeing them. But that doesn’t always work out. A lot of times, we — and we see people after they’ve been trying for a while. We see probably our greatest group of couples when they’re working with a fertility clinic. So we do a lot of work with the local fertility clinic here. I think they know our smiling faces over there. But we really meet them where they’re at, and we’re able to help in all aspects of preparing both the women as well as the men, and I think that working with men is an aspect of fertility that people don’t think about.

Kristin: I’d love to hear more about that! Do you work with the man surrounding his emotions or just basically to repair him biologically?

Vikki: I guess the easiest way to explain is to really explain how acupuncture works in the body. There’s a couple different ways to look at it. There’s through the eyes of Chinese medicine, and then there’s through the eyes of our scientific knowledge, right, of how the body works. So I’ll sort of walk you through, maybe, the scientific knowledge, since that’s what most people think of when they’re trying to figure out what’s going on with their fertility. So acupuncture really is great at calming the nervous system, balancing hormones, and increasing blood flow. Blood flow, blood flow, blood flow. I can’t say it enough when people come in for treatment. And the reason that acupuncture can help and is so helpful is because, first off, if we look at just increasing the blood flow, we’re focused on having that blood flow reach the reproductive organs. And so in that way, we’re looking at it to improve the function of the ovaries, to nourish and help grow these healthy, ready eggs, to send more blood to the uterus to create this thick and healthy lining. And those aspects are, you know, obviously extremely important when we’re looking at ease of getting pregnant. Another way that acupuncture helps is by reducing stress, and I’m sure you’ve heard it a million times, right? Stress can really cause a lot of problems for us across the board, but when we’re looking specifically at fertility, it’s easy to see how it can cause a problem. I always explain stress by using my little prehistoric story of a woman. She’s sort of walking down the street, and this saber tooth tiger jumps in her path. And at that moment, her body clicks, the sympathetic nervous system. And all the blood and all the energy in her body is getting out to the muscles so she can run fast, so she can be strong. To her eyes, so she can see. Opening the ability to bring in more oxygen, to breathe more, to be fast. And that’s great in that situation, but at that time, the blood is not in your reproductive organs because it’s not necessary there. And so nowadays, we’re in this time where we’re overloaded by work. We’re overloaded with family obligations. And so we have this ongoing chronic stress that can be overreacted to by our bodies. So our reproductive organs just aren’t thriving in that environment. So having acupuncture be able to click us back into that parasympathetic nervous system, where we breathe, where we get more blood to our organs and can really focus on healing our body and nourishing eggs and all of those things – it’s extremely important. And especially when people are trying to get pregnant, they add that much stress because they’re always stressed about whether they’re pregnant.

Kristin: Yeah, and for our clients who started out their journey with The Fertility Center, there’s a lot of stress with that, or clients who had loss in the past and their worry about experiencing loss again. I can see how emotionally it would be great in preparation. Our clients who had an easy time getting pregnant the first time and then struggle with secondary, and they come to me wanting resources and help, and I do bring up acupuncture, but I’m learning so much with you today about the whole process and the benefits. It seems like even if it’s years away that preparing their bodies well in advance would be beneficial for couples.

Vikki: Absolutely. And even when we look at males in this way, they’re doing research, and there’s research out there showing, that stress can reduce the amount of sperm, healthy sperm, that a male has. It can alter the shape and reduce its ability to be a great swimmer and all the things we need to make sure we’re making some good quality and in some cases quantity, depending on what we’re working with, embryos. So really important for males to be in on that. And I say this to all of my women that come in: a third of fertility difficulties lie with the man. And I don’t think we as women always understand how high that number is.

Kristin: A lot higher than what many women think. It’s surprising.

Vikki: In fact, I think that what the research states is about a third of difficulties are on the female side, a third are on the male side, and then a third are somewhere in between.

Kristin: Interesting.

Vikki: Very interesting. And I think we take on the burden as women that it must be ours. And many men just assume it’s a problem, you know, with the female side. So it’s great to know that men can really help out and be a part of increasing success. A couple other things that acupuncture is great for, especially when we’re working with IVF, is it can prevent uterine contractions. So the way that we work with the nervous system, we can calm that nervous system, which connects to that smooth muscle tissue, and — yeah, so when we do embryo transfers — or when we work before and after embryo transfers — the after treatments really are focused on eliminating uterine contractions as much as possible, and that really helps to have successful implantation.

Kristin: So if any of our listeners or clients have yet to experience acupuncture, can you describe what a fertility session would be like and how many visits a male and female client would have? I don’t know if you work with the partner in a certain number of sessions ideally and then the expecting person? Is it different as far as the number of sessions or what that would look like?

Vikki: Ultimately, we like to work with them on a course of 12 treatments, and it’s not an arbitrary number. Three months of acupuncture helps to create good healthy eggs and is about the time of how long it takes to regenerate sperm. So it takes about 90 days for this egg to mature to be ovulated. And so we can get to working with the woman right away. We can get more blood flow. Inside that blood is all these nutrients to really impact the health of that egg and, equally, the health of the sperm. And so that’s why optimally we’re looking at three months, though I will always say to my clients, three to six months because we want to make sure we’re working over, you know, a couple of cycles in that capacity with healthy eggs.

Kristin: That makes sense. And would that be a session a week? An hour long session? What would that look like?

Vikki: So all the sessions are an hour long. The first one is usually longer, so probably about 90 minutes, because we do a pretty lengthy intake, lengthier than if you went to the doctor. We ask a lot of questions, and a lot of the questions, people can’t possibly understand how they would connect with their reproductive strength, but we look at the whole body. And so we’re using a tongue diagnosis, pulse diagnosis. If somebody brings in their BBT charting because they’ve been charting their basal body temperature, we use that information. And we put together this story. You know, where does the imbalance lie? And we work to change that as well as helping to just move that blood to where it needs to go. And so they’re about an hour after the first one, and we like to do them once a week.

Kristin: And I know you have a male acupuncturist, as well, for those who prefer.

Vikki: Absolutely.

Kristin: So that’s a great option. And do you treat — do you ever do dual sessions, since you have multiple acupuncturists?

Vikki: We’ll do them at the same time. We can book people at the same time. We don’t do them in the same room. For the session itself, you know, people come in and we talk. We assess. And I put together my point prescription, choosing the acupuncture points that I’m going to use. And it seems like it wouldn’t be extremely gentle, but it actually is. I mean, ultimately, my goal is for people just to feel very relaxed. I treat a lot of people that are very afraid of needles, and they’re always happy when they’re done that they came to treatment because it’s very relaxing. Many have gotten over their fear of needles. It’s nothing like going and having a blood draw.

Kristin: Right. I would agree. I just had a session a couple weeks ago, and I wasn’t sure what to expect. It was very relaxing! I enjoyed it.

Vikki: It’s a great way to be treated, right? To walk out and be like, ah, the relief, the relaxation. It leaves us feeing very balanced.

Kristin: Agreed, yeah. And I can see how some people would, with a fear of needles, would have a challenge, but if they’re going through traditional fertility methods, they’re dealing with needles in a different way.

Vikki: Absolutely.

Kristin: So maybe that could help their fear.

Vikki: You know, it does. And it’s funny because I’ve had clients who don’t have the support, maybe, to do some of those needling, and so while I can’t do any of that, the needling from the fertility clinic for them, sometimes I’ll sit and I’ll just support them and just be, like, you’re doing good. You’re doing good. So we’ll do a treatment before, and then they get that support. You know, we really help our clients wherever they are with whatever tools we have.

Kristin: I love it. So how do our listeners find you?

Vikki: We have a great website. It has a lot of information on it, and they can make an appointment on there. They can also call. I always do — so does Corey. We do complimentary consultations, you know, just so people can really talk, because everyone is approaching this from a different place. And sometimes the need to just check it out and say, you know, is this right for me, is important. And so we always love people to have the option to really talk to us, so see how they connect with us, and to ask their questions before treatment starts.

Kristin: Thanks for being on! Do you have any parting words for our listeners who are struggling with fertility?

Vikki: You know, I think it’s important to remember — and I say this to all of my clients — that when you’re told or see that infertility is your condition, that it’s not a word we use here because my clients aren’t necessarily unable to conceive. They just haven’t conceived yet. And I think it’s really important for us to keep that in mind because our nervous system, our brain, our heart, really can make change in many different ways in our body. So coming at it knowing that we can do this, you know, and your body can do this, is a great way to approach your future.

Kristin: I love it. Words matter. We believe that with HypnoBirthing. Just changing the language and the imagery can make a big difference in getting the fear out.

Vikki: Absolutely, and to know you’re supported.

Kristin: Exactly. You’re talking some doula language there, about just telling them that they’re doing great and being there emotionally as a support person. So it’s great to have a big team supporting you, especially during this time of uncertainty with coronavirus. I love that you’re a great resource for our families and listeners.

Vikki: And we also offer — we have a couple of conditions that we know are big struggles, and we like to treat people for a certain amount of time. Because of that, we have some programs that we do offer, and fertility is one of those programs. So on our website under programs, you can see the different programs we put together to give a little financial help to those going through this struggle to make it a little bit easier.

Kristin: That’s wonderful. And I know you do take most health savings and flex spending; is that correct?

Vikki: We can give receipts, and it really depends on if your health savings and flex spending covers acupuncture. But if it does, yes. And more insurance companies are starting to cover acupuncture, but it really depends on if they cover it and what they cover it for. But we’re happy to give super bills to everyone and anyone so they can, you know, get reimbursement if that’s applicable with their insurance.

Kristin: Thank you! It was great to chat with you today, Vikki, and we’ll have you on in the future to talk more about pregnancy and acupuncture.

Vikki: Fabulous! That would be wonderful. Thank you for having me!

Fertility and Acupuncture: Podcast Episode #101 Read More »

Podcast Episode 100!

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / babies, babywearing, birth doula, birth support, childbirth classes, gold coast doulas, mood disorders, newborn classes Childbirth education, postpartum depression, postpartum doulas, pregnancy podcast

It’s the 100th episode! Alyssa and Kristin, co-Owners of Gold Coast Doulas, talk about what the past two and a half years of podcasting has looked like, how the podcast has changed, how the business has changed, how services have pivoted in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic, and how they are playing their part in supporting other local businesses. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Welcome to the 100th episode of Ask the Doulas Podcast! I am Alyssa, and Kristin’s here via phone because it’s COVID-19. We can’t even see each.

Kristin: Right. It changes everything!

Alyssa: I know! We haven’t seen each other in forever, and I actually came into the office for the first time in weeks, and it feels so good to be not working in my house.

Kristin: Yeah, it certainly changed so much about the way we do business. But 100 episodes — I can’t even believe it, Alyssa!

Alyssa: I know. It seems wild that in two and a half years, we’ve done 100 episodes. What is that even — I should do the math on that. Let me do it real quick while you talk.

Kristin: Yeah. I mean, we started this podcast as a member of the Radio for Divas team. It’s a radio show with women experts in the community. And then we transitioned to the podcast format, wanting to really keep our clients as the central focus and information that they would want to hear, and then also thinking about what other listeners, whether it’s regionally or across the US, might be interested in. Capturing more information from experts on anything related to pregnancy and newborns to even toddlers and parenting in general.

Alyssa: So the math, by the way: two and a half years is 130 weeks, so in two and a half years, there have only been 30 weeks that we did not put a podcast out.

Kristin: Wow! Yeah, I know when we started out, we had more frequent podcasts and then have slowed it down a bit. And Alyssa is the editor and producer. How has that changed for you?

Alyssa: It’s a role that I don’t particularly love, but I think, actually, COVID has increased because — you know, I think for the first year and a half of it, I was cranking these out once a week, and then it slowed, just because it is so time-consuming and so much work. We covered a lot of topics already, and we had a lot of changes in the business happening and I wanted to focus on other things, other than the podcast. But now that we’re home, the last few weeks I’ve actually been putting one out every week. And the fact that I can’t meet with someone in person — it’s kind of easier to do it over the phone. The sound quality obviously isn’t as good, but it’s allowed me to — you know, I’ve got three podcasts recorded now with Laine Lipsky, who’s in California and is a parenting coach, and we’ve had just a ton of stuff to talk about. But the virtual, like able to do that virtually, it doesn’t matter that she’s in California. She can coach a parent in Michigan, and same with my sleep. I can do sleep consults for families anywhere.

Kristin: Yeah, it’s been amazing to see the locations that some of your sleep consults have been from.

Alyssa: Yes, my last ones from Colorada and New Orleans, I think, and then somewhere in Florida were my last three. So they haven’t even been local.

Kristin: That is one thing with COVID. We’ve taken things more globally as far as now offering classes online and being able to expand our base outside of the 50-mile radius that we serve. And your work hasn’t changed much because a lot of what you do is virtual anyway, so you haven’t had to pivot all that much as a sleep consultant.

Alyssa: Right. I just don’t do it in person, obviously, but everything else is exactly the same. And then we can’t offer postpartum doula support. Well, I mean, I suppose we could for a newborn, but I’m not doing sleep consults for a newborn, so that doesn’t come into play, either.

Kristin: So, Alyssa, let’s talk about some of the episodes and highlights of what we have gone over in the last two and a half years that we have been producing the podcast.

Alyssa: The topics have been all over the place. You mentioned a few, but I know you in particular, you like to reference a few of them for your birth clients, like the episode, #54, What to Pack in your Birth Bag that you did with Dr. Rachel from Rise Wellness. You know, a lot of our topics, we choose because they’re questions that we get asked often, so why not do a podcast on it, give them all the information, and then just allow them to reference that all the time. So it’s a lot of the reason why we choose certain topics.

Kristin: I also love the dad perspective. We’ve done a couple podcasts of what it’s like to work with a doula and how a partner feels about their role in the birth with having another support person in the room, and even some of our students in the classes we’ve talked, talking about their person experiences, have been really fantastic because it’s a better testimonial to hear it from someone outside of our agency than us telling, you know, our audience all of the features and benefits of everything we offer.

Alyssa: Right, and I think for somebody who doesn’t quite understand the role of a doula, even after researching, sometimes just hearing the personal story from one of our clients makes something click. We love hearing personal stories of clients. Like you said, either birth support, postpartum support, any of our classes. We’ve done a lot on nutrition and diet, babywearing, pelvic floor stuff. You know, that’s a big question for parents after a baby is born.

Kristin: Especially because we happen to work with a lot of athletes, especially in the birth doula role, and they want to be able to get back to running marathons or whatever their particular sport is. So, yeah, pelvic floor therapy and physical therapy in general has been very helpful for our clients.

Alyssa: Right. And then our friends at Rise have given us lots of information on different chiropractic topics. Obviously, I’ve got quite a few on sleep. I love talking about sleep.

Kristin: And tongue ties and lip ties and working with breastfeeding.

Alyssa: Yeah, breastfeeding.

Kristin: Yeah, a lot of breastfeeding-related questions and feeding in general. And certainly anything related to mood disorders and postpartum depression with different experts.

Alyssa: Pediatric Dental Specialists of West Michigan is one of our partners, and Dr. Katie has been on a few times to talk about, you know, her special laser beam for tongue ties and lip ties. And she just had a baby of her own! We should probably check in with her and see how they’re doing.

Kristin: Yeah.

Alyssa: Cesarean births; we’ve talked a lot about Cesareans and what is a doula’s role within that, and we’ve got some actual birth stories about what that looked like for the birthing person and the family.

Kristin: It’s been a lot of fun to have different guests in and try to find new and fresh content. I mean, after 100 episodes, there are only so many topics you can cover, so…

Alyssa: I know. You kind of have to redo topics with different people. But I’d love for our listeners to email us, too, and just let us know, like, what haven’t we talked about, or what did we talk about but you would like more coverage on? Or do you know somebody who would be a great person for us to speak to?

Kristin: And recently we’ve done some COVID-related podcasts, but that is ever-changing with policies in the hospital and specific states, of course. We have had personal client experiences, birthing during COVID, as well as how our agency has adapted to this time and what precautions we cake.

Alyssa: Maybe we can talk — do you want to talk a little bit about, just in case people aren’t up to date? So as of May 21 when we’re recording this, 2020 — what the role of a doula is right now, like how we can work in hospital settings, and our postpartum doulas.

Kristin: Yes. So for those of you listening in other states, in the state of Michigan, we are following the governor’s stay at home orders. So as Alyssa mentioned earlier, we’re not in our office working together, and we are seeing our clients and students virtually. So all of our classes are done virtually via Zoom, so still very interactive. We recently had our Saturday Series class, which is interesting, because for me, the comfort measures class that I teach is so hands-on and interactive. To do that virtually without even a helper or model to demonstrate positions, I’m trying to describe things and show diagrams and videos and how to do a hip squeeze and counterpressure, for example. So that’s been really interesting, and I know you taught your newborn class several times virtually. And our lactation consultant had the breastfeeding class.

Alyssa: Yeah, I think it’s hard for her, too, the breastfeeding, because to show different positions and — I mean, same with me. Mine’s not as interactive as yours, but even moving the computer into the right spot so I can show my different swaddling methods or, you know, paced bottle feedings, things like that. It works, and I always ask, did everyone see that okay? Is everyone getting it? Do you need me to do it again? It’s just different. I miss being able to meet the students in person. But it’s just where we’re at right now.

Kristin: But at the same time, it’s more convenient for them because they can be at home and, you know, not have to travel. It gives everyone more time in their day, but as far as how we’ve adapted, other than classes, right now with the stay at home order, our lactation visits are all done virtually. So, again, for our two registered nurses and IBCLCs, that has been different than hands-on or more engaging support. But our clients have found it — I’ve had personal birth clients that I’ve worked with who have told me that Kelly was very helpful virtually, so that’s been going better than we had hoped. And with birth support, things are, you know, ever-changing for us, but we’re doing all of our prenatal visits and even the initial consultations before hiring and certainly the postpartum visits after the birth — all of that is done virtually. And different hospitals have different policies related to whether or not a doula can be in the hospital. We’re fortunate that our governor has an executive order that includes a doula and a partner in the hospitals. The doulas are not considered visitors, and we have access. But every hospital, again, has the ability to make their own policies surrounding doulas, and we are right now working in Spectrum Butterworth and all of the regional Spectrum hospitals like Zeeland and Gerber and Pennock and Hastings and Greenville, and so that has been really fantastic. St. Mary’s Mercy Health is currently not allowing doulas but encouraging virtual support, and Metro is allowing doulas. Holland Hospital is not. I was just informed that Mercy Muskegon, who was not allowing doulas up until very recently, and as of — I want to say it was this week — doulas are now being admitted to the hospital and able to support birthing persons. So that has been fantastic since we do serve a 50-mile radius of Grand Rapids. So as doulas, we are monitoring our symptoms, and if we have any symptoms of Coronavirus, then we send in a doula who is symptom-free. Right now, all of the hospitals in our area are requiring doulas to be certified, so if a doula took a two-day or four-day training and chose to never certify, they are not able to work during this time. And if a newer doula is working toward that, then that would be an option in the hospitals. They could certainly attend homebirths. So that has been interesting. We worked with our lawyer and consultant to work on a COVID questionnaire and have included COVID language in our contracts that our clients sign so that our doulas are able to feel comfortable and confident, as well as our clients, in potential exposure during stay at home and what each household is doing as far as going to the grocery store versus having groceries delivered, or is a partner working outside of the home as an essential employee. And then our clients and doulas are able to choose each other. Some of our doulas are not working during COVID or only working with completely isolated clients. So we’ve done a lot of focus internally on what our team wants to do and how we’re able to pivot during this time. So we’ve been able to, you know, have conversations with the governor’s office and make sure there are no gray areas in the doulas role during stay at home and got some confirmations about what a postpartum doula can do, because a lot of that language was focused on our work in the hospital. During the stay at home order that is set to expire at the end of the month — it may or may not be extended — we are only offering essential postpartum support. So since we are working with clients normally through the first year, and they don’t need to have an urgent reason to have us there — they don’t need to be struggling with postpartum depression or a mood disorder — and they don’t need to be healing from a birth. We can work with them until their child is one year old or until their multiples are. So we have stopped working with some of our existing clients during the stay at home and plan to resume work with them. We’re focused only on those first six to nine weeks of healing, depending on the type of birth that our client had, or those struggling at any point in their postpartum time with mood disorders or depression.

Alyssa: So, to clarify, before this, we worked with people up to — we worked with families up to a year old, but now we can only do essential work which is, like you said, the six to nine weeks after someone just had a baby or with someone suffering from a perinatal mood disorder.

Kristin: Yes, or if they don’t have a partner, that is essential, if they need support, since obviously grandparents cannot be involved during this time. Families that have other kids are not able to take them to daycare if they’re not essential workers, so that has been interesting. Obviously, we can work with triplets and multiples because they need more of a hand around the house especially during healing.

Alyssa: So the moral of the story for postpartum is, we can’t just work with anyone right now until the stay at home order lifts, but we can work with you if you have a newborn, if you are suffering from a mood disorder, and/or have had multiples; twins or triplets.

Kristin: Exactly. Yes.

Alyssa: And we can do day or overnight, and that would involve you, again, virtually meeting the doula. You would both fill out this COVID-19 form that we created so that you and the doula both know what your risk, your exposure risk, is. Who’s leaving for the grocery store? Is someone in the home leaving for work? And as long as you’re both comfortable with it, you can work together.

Kristin: Exactly. Yeah, and our doulas are taking every precaution and following what the family wants as far as, you know, sanitation and wearing gloves. We’re all wearing our own cloth masks in the home, but if a client wanted surgical masks and has those or needs us to get them, then we work around their needs, and our doulas are bringing in a fresh set of clothes and taking their shoes and any coats that they may be wearing off immediately. So that has been a pretty seamless process transitioning over for the doulas who are comfortable working with our clients. And we’re so busy in postpartum pre-COVID. You know, that has been some growth that we’ve seen since we started the podcast and very intentionally focused on educating our community and what a postpartum doula is and the benefits of it. But now that is obviously slowed during COVID. But we’ve seen an increase as far as, you know, our students, and being that many hospital classes have closed or not all educators are offering virtual classes, and certainly our birth clients have increased more recently. It slowed for a bit initially because, you know, some doulas in our area are not offering in-person support, and we are. So that has also been a change in our business. Focusing on supporting local businesses is so key. So for any of our listeners, support the local shops in your community. I know, Alyssa, you order from Rebel, and I’ve been getting juice from different local businesses, whether it’s delivered to me or pick up, and just trying to keep our local businesses afloat, because as Local First members and a B-corporation business, we know the importance now and don’t want to see more businesses close down due to COVID.

Alyssa: I know. It’s so sad. What’s the statistic; like, 50% of small businesses aren’t going to make it through this? And luckily, Gold Coast will. We’re doing what we can. We’ve changed our business model a bit. We’ll be good; we’ll make it through this. It’s going to be a tough couple of years, I think, for everybody, but we’re going to do what we can in the midst of this to continue to help other small businesses and to keep all of our subcontractors. They’re their own small businesses. We want to keep them working and support them as much as possible, too.

Kristin: Yeah. And it’s been really sad even seeing other doula agencies that started at the same time as Gold Coast, which we’re nearing our five year anniversary. You know, they’re closing their doors in bigger markets than we live in, and it’s due to COVID. And that’s been very sad for me because they were peers of ours. And so, yeah. If you can support your local service and retail businesses and restaurants, do your part and think local. And just thinking of our stores like EcoBuns with online ordering and Hopscotch, that we often partner with. Supporting them, and the nonprofits. We’ve actually given more during COVID since a lot of the fundraisers we would normally attend and support for some of the hospital foundations have been canceled. We’ve given money to Mercy Foundation and we’re looking at what we can do within Metro and the Spectrum Foundation. And we are analyzing what we can best do to help Nestlings Diaper Bank because let’s not forget that diapers are needed now more than ever, and it is not covered by your basic government assistance programs. So that is something to keep in mind if you’re looking to help; if you have extra diapers or you’re looking at giving somewhere. Nestlings Diaper Bank is in need, and they are running low in diapers.

Alyssa: Yeah, the need is probably greater than ever right now, I would imagine.

Kristin: Yes. So, yeah. Thanks to everyone for listening all of these years and supporting our podcast. We would love to know what topics would be of interest to you and where we can go from here.

Alyssa: Yeah. Please let us know. You can find the podcast on iTunes and SoundCloud. We also have on our website a blog section. If you hover over that, we actually have a listing of all the different podcasts. There in order by date. I don’t think you can search by topic, but you can probably Google it and find a certain topic. But we appreciate you listening, and obviously, if you can subscribe, if you can like it, if you can rate us. We’ve never really asked people to do that. It kind of started out as just like — I don’t want to call it a hobby, but, you know, something fun to do to give our clients something; a resource for our clients. But the more people we can educate, the better.

Kristin: We’ve gotten some recognition in Grand Rapids Magazine about being a local podcast, and also through a national organization that rated us in the top ten podcasts that are birth-related. So that was pretty exciting!

Alyssa: Thanks for listening, again!

Podcast Episode 100! Read More »

Alyssa of Gold Coast Doulas holding a Zoom interview for the Ask The Doulas Podcast

Adult Separation Anxiety: Podcast Episode #99

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Parenting / Alyssa Veneklase / birth support, gold coast doulas, parenting class, postpartum anxiety, pregnancy podcast, separation anxiety, sleep deprivation

On this episode, Alyssa and Laine begin by talking about parenting anxiety and the distance that parents can sometimes feel as their babies and children grow and seem to need them less. The conversation takes some interesting turns to talk about having clear boundaries for kids, pivoting our expectations of children as they grow, and learning how to figure out who you are as a parent. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Hello. Welcome to another episode of Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa Veneklase. Super excited to be talking to Laine Lipsky again. How are you?

Laine: I’m good. How are you doing?

Alyssa: Good. So we had a couple great podcasts, and I had an idea last week about another topic to talk about because I have a lot of clients who — so, they come to me and they want something specific, right? They have a specific sleep goal. Maybe that’s to stop nursing to sleep. Maybe it’s to stop bed sharing. It could be any number of things. But when those things happen, they struggle with feeling distance from their child because now they’re not cosleeping, and they’re not nursing to sleep anymore. So I just wonder, you know, from your end as a parenting coach, what kind of, I don’t know, tips or tricks do you have, because it kind of seems like the classic motherhood scenario, right, where our babies are going to grow up and we always have these feelings of — I don’t know. It’s almost like grief. You’re, like, grieving the loss of one stage of this child. But, of course, we want them to grow up and we want them to become strong, independent little humans, but we grieve the loss of that, especially if maybe you’re only having one child. So, yeah, I just kind of — like, that was an idea I had. So let’s talk about it.

Laine: Yeah. It’s such a good topic, and you’re right, it does sort of permeate all phases of parenting, right? Like, no matter how old your child is, you’re going to be experiencing — you’re moving through life and life stages, so there’s going to be transitions, and transitions are — they have loss as part of them. That’s part of the deal of a transition. You’re starting something new. You have to let go of something that you had before. And I’m sure with the clients that you’re talking about, when they’re looking to move out of one sleep phase, it’s because it’s not working for them, right? And they want to move into this new thing, but once they have the new thing, it’s like this sort of romantic, you know, notion. But there is this real separation thing, and I think that’s where the pain point is. It’s interesting talking about it. I think that what comes up for me when you first mention this topic was that I received a card when my son was born, and I think it’s a — I don’t know; maybe you’ve heard the phrase before, but it was something — I might get it a little wrong. But it was something along the lines of, “Motherhood is the understanding — or the agreement, maybe — of having your heart walking around outside of you for the rest of your life.” Have you ever heard that one before?

Alyssa: Yeah, I’ve heard that, and it’s so true.

Laine: Yeah! So hopefully I didn’t butcher that too badly. But it is really like — it’s such a good quote and concept because it really is, in a nutshell, saying about — this other person that’s really a part of you and really needs you is going to be separate from you. Right? In different times of life. And I think that, you know — I think that when — it’s like a confusing time when you first have a baby because you’re literally enmeshed with your baby, right, when you first take them home or you’re an adoptive parent and they’re first brought home. They’re so reliant on you and dependent on you for their survival, if you have an infant on your hands. Right? And it creates this — I mean, it creates this codependence, really. It’s like the ultimate enmeshment of a relationship. And I have always seen motherhood, like early motherhood, as being like this accepted form of enmeshment, and then the process of it kind of tearing and tearing apart. And that, I think, is the pain of it, is this process of separation. I hear a lot from people that they get afraid of, like, oh, my child won’t need me anymore. And I think that — I mean, I think we all go through that. I think we all have that fear of, like, being so needed and then not being needed. It’s like this overwhelming capacity of being needed and then flipping over to not needed anymore, and we get so identified with that need, that early need that our kids have for us. I think we identify with it really strongly. That’s, like, an interesting place to start talking about it.

Alyssa: Yeah, and it seems to happen so drastically. So, you know, this infant needs you 100% of the time. You’re sustaining its life. It needs you to live. And then you have a toddler who still needs you quite a lot, and then all of a sudden, you have this young — you know, maybe at age 8, 9, 10 — they’re just so independent that it just stops. And I think that’s what’s really hard for, maybe especially us as mothers, is we go from, “Hey, Mom. Hey, Mom. Mommy, Mommy, Mommy,” like all the time, to, “I go this.” So I think, you know, when my clients with their babies are going through this, it feels very severe, like it just happened so suddenly. And they really struggle with that feeling of disconnection. So I try to find, you know, what’s a way that we can bring that feeling of connectedness back without getting you back to a place of sleeplessness.

Laine: Yeah. What comes up for me when we’re talking about this is really the backing up in that process. Like, even before somebody is lamenting the loss, right, like, it’s almost like — when you lament losing something, when you grieve something, it’s almost like I didn’t get enough of it, or maybe I didn’t do it — I didn’t get enough out of it when we were going through it, and I’m not ready to let go of it yet. And one practice that I feel really strongly about in parenting, and I think this applies here, too, is the concept of practicing mindfulness. And one of my favorite definitions of mindfulness is actually savoring. When you savor moments with your kids, what you are enjoying about each phase in the moment — I believe there is a natural sense, because I see it with parents and I know with myself, there’s a sense of completion of a phase, and it’s not as hard to let go of because you’re not like, oh, I’m trying to grasp back to that. So, for example, I remember — I remember actually sitting — it was with a friend and her toddler. We were at a play date together, and the moms were sitting in one room, and the kids were supposedly playing in the other room. And the toddler kept coming up to her and asking for her attention. And she kept shooing him away, saying, go, this is your time to play with your friends. Go play with your friends. I mean, all he wanted to do was sit on her lap. He didn’t even — he wasn’t even that demanding, right? She kept shooing him away and shooing him away. And finally she, like, couldn’t fight the fight anymore, and she let him sit on her lap, and she was so much happier about it, and she was obviously so much more at peace. And, you know, the other moms were sitting there, and I was like, you know, this time is going to pass so quickly. Embrace this time that he’s seeking your attention because before you know it, he’s going to be off. Peace out, Mom. I don’t need you anymore. And that — I think that when we fight what’s happening in the moment, we kind of lose out on getting our fill of it. Does that make sense?

Alyssa: Yeah. I almost wonder if you hit the nail on the head there with my sleep clients, because let’s say it’s a two-year-old that I’m working with. Maybe they — because of sleep deprivation, they feel like they’ve lost out on so many moments, because as we’ve talked about before, it inhibits your ability to parent, and then with a sleep-deprived child, they’re not themselves, either. So maybe they feel like these months or years of sleepless nights and dealing with a crying child and tired and screaming, they feel like they didn’t get all those moments or get enough of those moments; that they’re not ready when it does end. I’m not sure.

Laine: That’s interesting. There’s also very intense bonding that happens. I had a child who was not a good sleeper, and there’s very intense bonding that happens at 3:00 a.m. And it’s like you love this being and you’re there for this being and you’re comforting them or you’re trying to comfort them in whatever way, and it’s so primal and it’s so intense that I think there is a loss of that, like, bonding experience. How are we going to bond? If that’s been our bonding up until now, as crappy as it was, as hard as it was, if we don’t have that thing, how we do it now? And I think that gets to more the real, like, heart of how do you interact with your child. How do you interact with anybody when the problem has been defining the relationship, right? Anybody, really. Like, when you have a friend and, like, all you’ve been doing is, like, talking about what hasn’t been working, let’s just say, in your friendship, and then suddenly you resolve that thing. It’s like, wait. Do we even know how to interact with each other? Or like with parents whose kids then leave the house. This whole — I know you’re far away from this, but it does happen. Kids do eventually, you know, leave the house.

Alyssa: And then the parents are like, hmm, what do we talk about?

Laine: Yeah. Like, so I still like you? Who are we without this thing, this elephant in the room? Or not elephant; we’re actually talking about it. Maybe it’s not the elephant. And, like, I think that there’s some fear there, and I also — which I get. I get it. How do I actually mother now? If my child doesn’t need me for this essential need, this basic physical thing of sleep — okay, so what are the other levels I can bond on? Maybe it’s the physical because it’s about kissing them, you know, their boo-boos when they fall down. It’s about feeding them. It’s about making sure their diapers are clean or whatever. I’ve got the physical thing. But it starts to kind of move into this more emotional realm where I know for a fact that most people feel very uncomfortable. How do I actually interact with my child? Especially — I don’t know if I told you this in one of our other podcasts, but it does bear repeating. When I Googled how many people were raised in a dysfunctional home, do you know what the percentage was?

Alyssa: I’m sure a lot higher than I think.

Laine: It’s staggering. 96%. Some sort of dysfunction. Not, like, fully crisis level, but some sort of — and the way that it was encapsulated, at least in the article that I read, was around the ability to talk about emotions. The emotional functionality of families. So maybe there’s something going on. I’m just riffing here, but maybe there’s something going on. If we’re moving out of the physical realm, I don’t know if I’ve got the chops to handle the emotional stuff that’s coming. I thought that maybe the physical piece of it is ending. Maybe there’s something there. I think a lot of people get really nervous about, like, what else am I — if you’ve been nursing your child, if I’m not the nurser, then what do I have to offer here?

Alyssa: Yeah. It’s like learning and relearning who you are and who your child is and then rebuilding that relationship, maybe even from the ground up, if that’s all you’ve known for months.

Laine: Yeah, or I would say more like pivoting. Right? Pivoting from being one thing; okay, now I’m this other thing. Okay; now I’m going to be this other thing. And that’s a process that doesn’t stop, right? Like, my kids are 12 and 14 now, so, you know, you’re the comforter when they’re born, and then you’re the playmate and the early teacher, and then you become the — you continue to be your child’s teacher, but you keep pivoting as they grow, depending on what they need, and developing a sense of what is sort of normal levels of need and what the fair expectations are at each stage. I think it’s a really useful thing. Like, I don’t want my 14-year-old coming to me with every single issue that’s going on. You know, I want him to have some agency in the world, right? So at this point I will, like, sometimes purposefully put him into an uncomfortable situation. Like, you order the food for the family over the phone, or you make the appointment for the doctor. That kind of thing. And, again, he’s older, but that’s where we’re headed with them, right, to teach them real-life skills. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t need me anymore. It just means that it’s like handing — it’s like you have the reins, and then you slowly start handing the reins over to your child. It’s a process.

Alyssa: Yeah. I like the idea of pivoting. Because it’s true; at every age and stage from birth on, it’s this constant shift of, now I have to do this for my child. Now I don’t need to do that, but guess what? She has a new need. She doesn’t need this one anymore, but she needs me in this other way, and helping parents to understand that.

Laine: Totally, and what sucks about it for parents is that just as you’re getting good at one stage, those kids go on and they do something else, and you’re like a rookie all over again. Even if you’re on your second or your third child, your second or third child isn’t going to be exactly the same as your first or your second child. It’s like, I’ve never been a mom to — to my 12-year-old, I’ve never been a mom to a 12-year-old you before. I’ve never been a mom to — even though I was a mom to a 12-year-old before, it wasn’t to you. Which is a very useful phrase for me to teach people to have in their back pocket. You know, I’ve never done this part for you before, with you before. And staying flexible and flexible-minded is the key to it, for me, anyway, and what I try to teach people. Something else along the lines of mindfulness and savoring each stage is letting yourself grieve a little bit at each stage. I think it’s a really — like, what a useful practice. You know, to recognize that this piece is ending and not try to talk yourself out of being sad a little bit. You know, I think anytime we try to overshadow — did you see the movie Inside Out with your daughter?

Alyssa: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Laine: I mean, really. Such a good movie. We just watched it again as a family the other night. And it’s just brilliant, right? Anytime you try to overshadow sadness with joy, it just rings false. And it doesn’t hold the truth to it. And so you asked me for tips and tricks. One thing that I will share that I do around grief is I have a really simple candle lighting thing that I do, which is when I’m feeling grief about something — could be anything, but even parent-related — I just have a little candle that I light, and I say, like, I grieve this thing. You know, I grieve the end of this stage. I grieve that I didn’t get to do this. I grieve, you know, we’re in Corona times right now, so I’m grieving that I don’t get to see my friends, and honoring that grief because any time we try to convince ourselves and “joy” our way out of something, we’re not going to get the full experience. It won’t be satisfying, and it won’t feel authentic. And as a parenting coach, I will say: our kids pick up on it. Whenever we are acting from a place of inauthenticity, that’s when they start to smell the blood and the fear in the water. So they’re going to start acting out more. They’re going to start — because they’re reacting, not always entirely, but a lot of times, they are reacting to the energy, the emotion, that we are emitting, even if we’re not saying it out loud. They’re feeling it, especially the young ones. Like the kids of the parents that you mostly deal with — those kids are all about, you know, the limbic part of the brain, which is all that, like, mammal-kind of stuff, which is, like, I’m just going to feel how I’m feeling. I’m not going to talk about how I’m feeling. I’m not going to reason how I’m feeling. I’m just going to be in the feeling 100%. Right? And so they pick up on — no matter what we’re saying, no matter what our tone of voice is, they’re going to pick up on what the feeling is. And so we’ve got to get right with ourselves around it. So I say welcome it. Don’t disrupt your sleep over it, right? I mean, please.

Alyssa: Right. Just own it. Do whatever you need to do, whether it’s a candle or writing or a meditation. But own it; leave it, and kind of move on, because it’s true. Even at a few months of age, these kids — you know, you’ve probably seen those studies where, based on a parent’s face, how a baby will react. And even just facial expressions can change how a baby feels and reacts. So if you’re stressed, they feel it. They notice.

Laine: They do, and I think as much as it’s a good training ground for the infant to learn how they’re reading our face, it’s great training when our kids are infants for us as parents to be, like, I’ve got to get myself right around this. Whatever this pain point is — it feels enormous because we’re all emotional and we’re all tired, and it’s all very, very sensitive and raw and new. But in retrospect, the infant issues are going to seem very small, you know? And when your kids get older, they will seem very small. So we want to use these moments when our kids are babies to train ourselves. How am I going to get right about this feeling? What are my practices around talking about this? Who’s my tribe? Who are my trusted mentors? What is my trusted source of information? What are the practices that actually work for me? You know, we’re so vulnerable as new parents to taking in all the information that’s out there. It can get really overwhelming, like a tidal wave of information coming at us. And it’s such a great time to learn how to slow down and just be like, hmm, what feels right for me? And that takes some work for most of us, you know? We want to do everything right, but really, there’s no — I’ve said this before. There’s no one right way to parent, but there’s a right way for each of us, and we’ve got to find that way. And the only way to do that is to get right with yourself. So the other thing I was going to add in is that — you know, it’s interesting, because when people talk to me about sleep stuff, they’re often talking about their children — you probably hear this a lot, too — delaying the sleep by one tactic or another. When they’re a little older, right? I need another drink of water. I need another book. I need another song. I need another whatever. And what I find is really helpful for parents to know is that for children, this is a time when most kids and parents are at odds, right? Children are not wanting to separate. They’re looking for more connection. But the parents are looking to separate because they need a break. They want to connect with their partner if they’ve got one. They’re tired themselves. They’ve got dishes; whatever’s going on. And so they become sort of at-odds, and so evening can become this really tense time, right? And what I would — what came up for me as you were talking about your clients with this issue is, like, perhaps the parents are also experiencing some inner feelings about that separation. Maybe they’re experiencing it as a separation as well, you know? And so with separation comes a little bit of anxiety, not just about what it means, but the actual act of separating. So I never thought about it as, like, creating anxiety for the parent. I’ve always thought about it from the child’s perspective and thinking, like, well, this is — it’s an anxious time for them, and the more you can settle in to helping them, the better it will go overall. But maybe there’s something going on there for them, too.

Alyssa: I’m glad you mentioned that, the bedtime routine, because that’s the one time I tell them, really focus on that time to bond with your child then. So that means it’s just you. There’s no phone. There’s no TV. It’s just you two, and you’re not thinking about anything else. You’re focused. Because 30 minutes, which is the perfect bedtime routine, so it doesn’t — another drink, another book, another song – can turn into an hour or two easily. So if you focus on trying to stick within 30 minutes, but 30 minutes of focused, dedicated time on your child is like hours to them. So they’re going to struggle at bedtime if you give them 30 minutes but it’s half focused on them. You’re checking the phone; you’re having them brush their teeth; you’re helping another kid, and then you’re telling them to go to the bathroom, and you’re never focused on just them. If you have older kids, stagger it, so that the youngest, you’re putting to bed first, just them. Then you do the next, and it’s just them. If you can dedicate that time to them, it’s huge. And then you can also feel — you know, even if you’re not nursing to sleep anymore, just those cuddles and sweet kisses and songs, you know, and holding the little stuffed animal, that can be still such an amazing bonding experience before bed. I think it just takes focus.

Laine: It does, and mindfulness, too, like that savoring. You’re talking about exactly what I was mentioning before. It’s the same thing. Take it in. Smell their little clean head. You know, like enjoy their breath before it get stinky, you know? Give them a few years. You’re not going to want to do that. Touch their skin; hold their hands. That’s all mindful practices which is, like, just take it in. Breathe it in. Which is really hard. I just want to, like, give a shout-out to the parents out there whose kids, first of all, you know, bedtime is not a pleasant experience. That’s a very real thing. And also a shout-out to the parents whose kids are not neurotypical. So if you have a child who’s really challenging who’s, like, very strong-willed; a child who had a really hard time settling themselves down, and so bedtime routine is longer than that half-hour and it seems like the more attention you give them, the more they want, and the more they seem to crave — that is going to require something different on their part, too. Because it’s not — I mean, 30 minutes, I would say, is ideal, but, like, I’ve got a child who is not neurotypical, and I would have loved half an hour. Trust me. But, like, that was not in the cards. And so, again, recognizing what your reality is and accepting that and identifying where it doesn’t feel right. Okay, I can make a tweak here. Where it does feel right, I can embrace that part of it. But really taking it all in and recognizing, like, this is your team. You don’t swap out kids. If you’re a coach on a team and you show up that year, these are your players. You make the best of what you have, no matter who you have. And everybody has their strengths, and everybody has their challenges. I think that so often, parents whose kids require more, who demand more, start doing the, like, I wish it was this way, or so-and-so’s kids are so much easier. This would be so much better if. And rather than that grass-is-always-greener kind of thinking — that’s a real mindset shift that parents — that I do, I work with parents on all the time, of, like, who do we have? Forget the ideal child. Forget the ideal whatever; sleep routine or whatever. We got to figure out what works for you. You know? And I think that a lot of — back to your original thought around, like, why — how parents grieve and the separation that they feel and the loss that they feel, you know, there’s a lot of fantasy thinking around, oh, it was supposed to be this way, or I was supposed to be this way. And it’s like, you know, I have clients who have older kids, and they’re like, you know, I really am sad that now things are this way. Maybe they would have been different if I would have parented differently when they were younger. I mean, it doesn’t end, right, unless you end it. Unless you end that kind of thinking, and you’re like, you know what? Starting today. Starting right here, right now, this is how I’m going to do it differently, whatever that different thing is. The only mistake I really call parents out on is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. That’s the only mistake that’s really going to bite you in the butt. Other than that, if you’re trying different things, and you’re being mindful about it, and you’re being honest with yourself and getting really aligned with what feels good for you and lines up with your values — I mean, this is all — everyone’s a rookie. Everyone.

Alyssa: I love every piece of this.

Laine: I don’t know that I have anything else to add. I think that’s a lot. That’s a lot of, like, essential, basic stuff. You know, recognizing what you’ve got, leaning in to what’s true for you, tuning out the noise, having trusted people in your huddle. You know, there’s a great body of information out there for parents right now and a lot of people delivering it and figuring out who’s your person is really essential. And I love how you talk about creating specific plans for people. Like, parenting is not one size fits all. You work with a body of information. And sleep is not one size fits all, right? You work with a body of information, and then you have to pick and choose what works for you. And the more — I just think the more support you can get for getting more and more aligned with yourself — that is an approach. That’s not even a tactic. That’s, like, a strategy. That’s an approach for parenting that lasts a lifetime. Because then no matter what, you’re, like, I’m good here. I’m going to try these different things. You know, one of these things is going to — all of them are going to blow up in my face. This one thing is going to work, but that doesn’t mean — you know, that three minutes where I tried something new and it totally blew up in my face and my kid lost it — that doesn’t define me as a parent. Right? Like, I am defined by what I — I call the shots in what defines me as a parent. Nobody else gets to do that for me. And the more we can operate from that place of strength and confidence, which most people lack because they end up saying things, doing things, that they swore up and down that they wouldn’t say or do, but that’s what comes out in moments of stress. And parenting is stressful. It’s really stressful. Our emotional back is put against the wall every day, most of the time. Especially, again, shout out to parents who have kids who are not neurotypical or who are challenging. You’re going to get stuff blown back at you every day. And so if you don’t have your running shoes on, you’re not going to be prepared to run that marathon. I just want people to — like, if I had one dream for all parents, it would be, like, get right with yourself. You know? And then, like, the rest — the rest is going to flow how it’s going to flow. There are going to be bumps and turns and curves and sharp U-turns all along the way. It doesn’t end. But the calmer you can be, the more centered you are as a parent, the better off the whole family is going to be. And that extends from early infancy. It’s a great training ground, and all the sleep stuff and the feeding and all of that stuff to forever. It’s not easy. This sounds really easy, like I’m saying things that make it sound really easy, like get right with yourself. Okay, Laine. What does that mean? Done. Check. Right with myself. No. It’s really, really hard. And, again, that statistic of, like, how many of us grew up in some sort of dysfunction is real. It’s so real. And so, you know, I always say about parenting: it’s probably the most important job that any of us will ever have. It’s certainly the most important job I’ve ever had and ever plan to have. It makes it really stressful. It makes it really important. I really care about it. And I didn’t get any training for it, except for how I was raised, and that’s true for everybody.

Alyssa: When you put it that way, it’s pretty scary, when you think about it like that.

Laine: How else could you think about? I mean, put it in the context of playing tennis. If you were taught how to play tennis, and then you were in a position to teach somebody else tennis, you can only teach them what you know. Right? I mean, so what would you do if you wanted to do it differently? You’d get a coach. You’d get help. You’d get a consultant like you. You would, like, start off learning how to do it differently so that you can give it to your children. You can’t give your kids what you yourself don’t have, and I know for a fact that every person who I talk to about being a parent wants their kids to grow up to be a few things. They want them to grow up to be successful. Usually, actually, it’s happy first. I want them to be happy. I want them to be successful. And I want them to be independent. And sometimes kind is thrown in there. Usually it is, eventually. But it’s always happy, successful, and independent. And what do you need to be those three things? You need to have a sense of confidence. And where do you get that from? You know, well, you get it from your experience, and you get it from your parents. And if you didn’t get it from those things, then you go to therapy and you work it out, and you figure some stuff out, and you try to bring those things in as an adult. But wouldn’t it be a wonderful world if, you know, we could raise our kids who did not have to recover in one way or another from their own childhood and just grow up with this confidence. And the only way we can do it is by giving it to ourselves first, which is awesome.

Alyssa: Yeah. It’s great. I mean, it’s great relationship advice, and no matter what age, right? I always say you can’t be a good partner if you don’t know what you yourself need and want. But it’s good training ground for children. I’ve heard it before in the aspect of a partner, but it relates to being a parent.

Laine: Yeah. I always — there are a few things I say a lot, and one of the things that I say a lot is, you know, I teach parenting, but really, what I’m teaching is relationship, like human relationship skills. It just happens to come out in full bloom with our kids because, you know, they bring it out in us. They bring out all the stuff that’s unhealed, that’s unsettled, that’s ungrounded. You know what that feels like, when your child says something or does something that you’re like, oh, no. Oh, that’s a no. Right? And you’re so clear about it. Like, that interaction with her goes away. I don’t know how it goes in your house. It can go all sorts of ways. It doesn’t mean it goes any better. You just know, no. I’m not going to give in on that one. Whereas when you’re not clear, and you’re like, well, I don’t know. It’s, like, blood in the water. You know, they smell it, and it’s like they just feed off of the uncertainty, off the anxiety, and it makes them feel unsafe, too. It really does. It’s like if you’ve ever driven over a bridge. They have those guardrails there for a reason — for many reasons, but imagine driving over a bridge and it didn’t have the guardrails up. You’d be like, oh, my gosh. I could totally take one little wrong turn and fall. Boundaries are the same way with kids. I know we’re touching onto another topic here, but boundaries operate like that. They keep kids feeling really safe. And so when we know what our boundaries are, it makes our kids feel safer, too. And so often we don’t know, and so, again, this comes back to getting more and more clear about where we stand as people, as humans, as women, as mothers, as parents, whoever, before we start trying to impose boundaries on our kids because some of those are going to fall really flat. And even with — I’m sure you bump against this with the sleep consulting, right? Like, parents don’t really know how they feel about it.

Alyssa: Yeah. I mean, especially with the older ones. You know, what are your boundaries? And you do; you find out these kids are just trying and pulling all the tricks because they don’t — some days it’s yes. Some days, it’s no. Some days, they let them cry. Some days, they let them stay up. Some days, he sleeps on the sofa. Some days, he sleeps in their bed. One night, he’ll sleep in his room. It’s just that there’s just no — zero boundaries, usually, so you just kind of have to slowly rein them in. But yeah, in that instance, I am coaching the parents more than the child because they have to decide. And I ask them: what are your goals, and what do you want your boundaries to be, because you both have to stick with it. It’s a two-parent home. You both have to agree, and you have to be consistent 100% of the time. Because like you said, blood in the water. They sense that Mom will do one thing, but Dad will do another, and they’re like, okay, I’ve got you. I know what I can get from both of you. So, yeah, consistency is key, too.

Laine: Yeah, I was going to add, it can be that. It can be that I can get away with this, right? Certainly, when they’re older, I can get away with this. They’re more conscious of it. But I caution parents against thinking that way because then they get resentful of their kids for trying to take advantage of them, and I think, coming from where I sit from a boundary perspective, I actually think that kids are looking to find out where the boundaries are by testing those limits because they want to feel safe. They want to know what the boundaries are. So they’re not doing it — I’m just flipping what you’re saying a little bit — not doing it to get away with something. They’re doing it to find out where the edge is because they’re actually not feeling safe about it. Do you know what I mean?

Alyssa: Yeah. No, I like that.

Laine: I think that makes parents feel a lot better and more confident to set a boundary when they’re like, no, this is actually going to feel good. It might not feel great at the beginning, but it will feel better for everybody when they know what the rules are.

Alyssa: Yeah, and I think you said it better than I did, but I tell parents that if you have different styles, absolutely fine. Your boundary might be a little bit different than your partner’s. As long as your child knows that there are boundaries, and there’s got to be a little bit of give, but your boundary can’t be here and your partner’s boundary can’t be here because then there will be fighting. So a little bit of wiggle room, but I like that: making them understand that their child wants and needs these boundaries, and they’re not just testing them to be, you know, malicious or cunning or conniving. They just — at all ages, right, they want to know what they can get away with.

Laine: And they want to know where the edges are. They want to know where they’re going to be safe. It’s like the rails on the bridge. It feels very unsafe to not have those rails up, even if they don’t like it. If they seem to not like it on the surface, kids do better — research tells us again and again that kids who do better in life are kids who grew up with boundaries. You know, not enforced in some militant kind of way, but fairly enforced boundaries that are clear; clear rules. And very few kids, very very few, can operate without clear rules and kind of figure them out on their own. It’s kind of an unfair ask of kids to figure that out. It’s really on us. Part of the deal with parenting. So to your parents who are feeling a loss over not bed sharing anymore, I would add this, as maybe a good place to wind down: what are the rituals that they can put in place to make, like you suggested, bedtime really meaningful, and also wake-up time; the reunion time. People put a lot of emphasis on the separation; like, oh, we’re going to have this sweet goodbye. Even if a parent is traveling, right? We’re going to do this when they leave; we’re going to do that when they leave. And there’s so much anxiety around the separation, for kids especially, and like I said, sometimes with parents. But if we flip it and we start focusing on, what are we going to do around the reunion time, it is actually something to look forward to. And you don’t even have to talk about it very much with little kids. You just start doing it. That’s the beauty when they’re little. You just start doing stuff and try it out. How does it feel when you walk into the room after a night of being separate? Check your own emotional baggage at the door. Leave it. Like, that was hard for me, but you walk in and you’re like, maybe there’s a special song you sing in the morning. Maybe there’s a special dance you do while you’re lifting up the shades. I mean, it could be anything. It doesn’t matter what it is. It matters how it’s done. So rituals are so powerful for kids, and it’s something that is really soothing in them developing a rhythm in their life and in their heart and helping their brain develop a sense of safety and the sense of connection and that, you know, awareness for a parent can help put their minds at ease, as well. Like, oh, I’m looking at how happy she is when she’s waking up, you know, and like really focusing on that reunion part. But, again, not to diminish the sadness. And then once you — having inner sadness, it’s kind of like having a child who’s really demanding your attention, like that mom I talked about at the playgroup, you know. Once you let that sadness in, you let that child who’s demanding your attention on your lap, and you kind of welcome it and embrace it, it kind of loses its power. So perhaps all the sadness around the grief is actually the fighting the grief, and if we welcome it — if they learn how to welcome it, they’ll feel more at peace about it and be able to let it go a little more easily.

Alyssa: I love all this so much. I’m going to be referencing this podcast to a lot of clients, I think.

Laine: Well, excellent. And, you know, I’m here for them. I’m happy to help out however I can.

Alyssa: Tell them how to reach you, and then I’ll tell your people how to reach me.

Laine: Sounds good! Probably the best way to find out more about me and to reach me is to just go to my website. And how can my people reach you when they need a guru for their sleep needs?

Alyssa: At our website, and then there’s a section for sleep. And we have a blog listing on there, too, with a lot of stuff about sleep and anything pregnancy, birth, and parenting-related. And then this podcast is called Ask The Doulas.

Laine: Perfect.

Adult Separation Anxiety: Podcast Episode #99 Read More »

Mother comforting and speaking to her child outside

Parenting and Sleep: Podcast Episode #98

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Parenting, Sleep / Alyssa Veneklase / birth support, gold coast doulas, parenting class, postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, postpartum doulas, pregnancy podcast, sleep deprivation, sleeping and babies

Laine Lipsky, Parenting Coach, talks with Alyssa today about the negative effects of sleep deprivation on children and parents. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Hello and welcome to the Ask the Doulas Podcast. I am Alyssa Veneklase. I’m excited to be back with Laine Lipsky, parenting coach. How are you?

Laine: Hi! I’m good. How are you doing?

Alyssa: Great! So when we talked on the phone last week, we talked a lot about sleep, and we didn’t intend to talk about sleep, but I told you that I was an infant and child sleep consultant, and then you were like, oh, gosh. The way sleep deprivation affects some of the families that you’re working with — it kind of created some interesting thoughts. I’d love to hear some examples of how some families you’ve worked with and how sleep deprivation has affected that whole family, because I see that when I work with — I’m hired to help children sleep, but obviously, these parents aren’t sleeping, either. That’s why they’re calling me. And then sometimes even when I get the children sleeping, these parents are, like, I still can’t sleep. It’s like if they’ve been two years without a good night’s sleep, they have to retrain themselves. So even though I’m not an adult sleep coach, there’s still a lot of rules from children that apply to us as adults that I kind of have to remind them of and tell them to be patient with themselves, just like they had to be patient with their child to get them into this new rhythm.

Laine: Yeah. It is such a big issue, and I can speak from personal experience. I have, hands down, the champion worst sleeper ever. He is now a teenager, so for anybody out there who thinks that they could take me on, like, my kid on, when he was a baby, I challenge you to a duel, a sleep duel. A sleep-off. Whatever you want to call it. My son — so I’ll just start by saying my son — he would go to sleep. We did all the “right things” for sleeping, and when we would put him down at night, he would go through the night and wake up every 45 minutes. And I was a nursing mom and I was not intending to cosleep, but because of his wake cycle, and nobody — nothing could get him back to sleep. He had something called silent reflux. It was really hard to diagnose. It was really concerning. We ended up cosleeping, and I — we had to out of absolute necessity. So every 45 minutes — so literally, when I would put him down — and that’s in heavy quotes; “put him down” for the night, I would start weeping because I knew that there was just this huge thing ahead of me called “night” which was going to be really, really painful and difficult. And you and I said we both know that, you know, sleep deprivation is a form of torture in prisons and there’s — I firsthand have been through it, and I work with people who have been through it. So I just want to start off by saying, like, I feel anyone’s pain who’s walking around feeling like their body hurts, their eyes burn, they’re short-tempered; they’re not making clear decisions, and especially on top of it, we’re recording this podcast during this COVID lockdown time. All of that stuff is just on, you know, steroids right now because we’re also stressed out about the uncertainty that surrounds us. So my heart goes out to anybody who’s struggling with sleep right now, and it’s so widespread. The impact of a parent being sleep deprived and maybe both parents being sleep deprived is just such a trickle-down effect. And so, yeah, I can tell you a lot about clients who I’ve had, but I just wanted to start off by saying that I have total empathy for somebody who is going through that. It’s a really important issue.

Alyssa: Yeah. You almost forget how bad it is, and then you have one night of bad sleep, and you remember. Oh, my goodness; how did I do this for weeks, if not months? And some of my clients, for years. You know, for two years. It’s devastating to relationships to where I –you know, they’ll say — or even six months. Six months old; I had a long maternity leave. I need to go back to work, but I haven’t slept in six months. Or I went back to work after three months, and I have not been productive at work for the last three months. It affects everything.

Laine: Right, or people driving to work totally sleep deprived. That’s dangerous.

Alyssa: It’s worse than drunk driving. I mean, statistically, I think there are more driving deaths related to sleep deprivation than drugs and alcohol combined. Combined!

Laine: Wow.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Laine: I didn’t know that. So I say a lot, joking not joking, in my practice, if parents were able to get on top of sleep early on in their families that I’d be out of a job because a lot of what I see are behavioral issues that are stemming from a lack of sleep. And you just think about how you feel when you are tired, when you’re cranky, when you — you know, when you feel that way as an adult, you’re able to sit down. You’re really able to say, I’m feeling really — at best, you’re able to say, I’m feeling really cranky. I’m just really tired. You’re able to maybe take a nap somehow, magically. You’re able to have a cup of coffee. When we think about our kids — or, you know, maybe people have a glass of wine to take the edge off. There’s no taking the edge off for the kids. They don’t have that. Maybe it’s nursing. I guess that would be the closest thing. But there’s no edge — they’re just edgy all the time. And so in a family system, what I see is that when kids are not rested and parents are not rested, we’re not dealing with the actual people. We’re dealing with the tired versions of those people. And so one of my very first questions when I speak to people about their parenting is, how is your sleep.

Alyssa: That’s great.

Laine: It’s that essential. And because I shared a few minutes ago about my own son and my own sleep struggles: we defied the parenting books at the time to schedule our day or create a schedule around feeding. I was, like, forget feeding. Who’s going to eat when they’re tired and cranky? Like, does eating feel good when you’re tired? That’s not a solution. The solution is sleep. And so we quickly learned — and I don’t know if this is what you teach, but you’re so flexible. You teach a lot of different things to people. But had you been my sleep coach at the time, or sleep consultant, I would tell you that we were scheduling our day around our son’s wake-up time. Like, that’s what we — we’re scheduling our day around his sleep needs. His feeding seemed to be fine, but his sleep was just crazy off the charts. And I think part of that is temperament. I think a lot of it is. And to this day, he doesn’t — well, to this day, he is a teenager, so he sleeps crazy amounts, but up until he started that whole sleep routine as a teen, he still needed less sleep than everybody. He still needs less sleep than me. And that’s where I see in families the real — when it’s upside down, when a parent has high sleep needs and a child has lower sleep needs, that’s a red zone for me as a parenting coach.

Alyssa: Yeah, it’s really hard because in the podcast we previously recorded where you said there’s no one parenting style; there’s no practice style — but the same with sleep. There’s no one — or there are some best practices, but there’s no best parenting style. Same with there’s a lot of sleep methods, but there’s no one right sleep method for everybody. So when I give someone a sleep plan which says, you know, based on your child’s age, this is what a child typically — what a nap schedule typically looks like or a feeding schedule typically looks like. Most parents want to go by the — just down — and I have to remind them, we’re not watching the clock. We’re watching your baby. Your baby’s cues tell us, how long is their wake cycle? Can they stay awake for an hour and a half before they get tired, or can they stay awake for two and a half hours before they get tired? That will determine feeding and sleep schedules, not this list, not the clock. So they just want me to hand them this guide that miraculously works, and it’s just not that easy. We really have to watch Baby’s cues to understand what your baby needs, because if a typical baby needs 15 hours and yours only needs 14 hours, what does that mean? Let’s try some things. What is this going to look like? A later bedtime? An earlier wakeup? A shorter nap? Troubleshooting together is why I think finding a good sleep coach is the only way to be successful because you can’t just read a book because then you are looking at this sleep guide in a book saying, okay, oh, my gosh, it’s 2:03. I’m three minutes late. You should have been down for a nap. But your baby’s not tired. So then what? Who answers that for you?

Laine: Yep, and to have somebody help you watch that, because just like with parenting advice, you know, the old adage is that — the old whatever you want to call common wisdom or whatever that you might get from your own parents often doesn’t apply. Sometimes they do. Like, if you’re lucky, you know, like a baby will sleep when they’re tired. Well, not if you have a baby who’s really high-strung, temperamentally speaking, or who’s overtired. Their form of being really tired is wired, which is the case in my kids. Right? He didn’t get that dreamy, dazed-off look when he was tired.

Alyssa: He didn’t give you the sleep cues of yawning and rubbing his eyes? Mommy, I’m tired.

Laine: There was no book that fit my child, and so to your point, I had to learn to read him and I had to stop reading the books. And I didn’t do it perfectly. You know, I still don’t do it perfectly, but just even that shift in my mindset of, like, oh, I need to read my child, not the books. It’s the same thing that I say to parents about parenting, which is, learn to read your child and take in the information but, you know, information overload is overwhelming and we’re just being inundated with it now, and it’s conflicting information. It’s like, you know, I’m a sports coach by training. Then I apply all of that to parenting. If there are too many voices in your huddle, right, the team gets off track and doesn’t know what they’re doing. You need to have one clear voice in the huddle and for each parent, it’s going to be them. Their family is their huddle, and the more clear that the leader can be, right, the captain — you’re the captain of your team — the better everybody is going to respond to that, or at least you’re going to know whether it’s working or not. So what I find is happening with parents is they get in their, you know, best-meaning selves, they want to be informed. They’re getting, like, flooded by information and they don’t know how to parse that out and to make it work for their child. So is that something that you — how do you talk to parents about that? Like, how would you help — that’s what I hear a lot from parents is, like, I don’t know what to do. How do you handle that?

Alyssa: A lot of the times, parents will come to me and say, we’ve tried it all. We’ve done all of the methods. All of them, even ones that I don’t agree with, right, like just crying for two hours. But they’re so desperate. They’re, like, this is what my pediatrician told me or this is what the book says. I’m just going to try it. Well, there’s so many methods, but they can be done incorrectly, and maybe that method’s not the right one for your child. So if they’ve come to me and said, I’ve tried Method X but then I read through their intake form and I’m like, well, no wonder that didn’t work. Here’s what we’re going to try. Or we get into something and they’re like, hmm, but my sister has a baby who sleeps really good, and this is what they did, and you’re not telling me to do that. I’m like, well, that’s their baby. So you do. You have to tell them — like, I love the coach analogy. I am your coach. We’re a team. We’re doing this together. I’m not coming in and just telling you what to do. I’m doing this based on your family’s needs. And then I educate you so that you can go and do it yourself because I’m not with you everyday for the next several months or years. So I educate them so they have the tools moving forward to do exactly what they need to do. And I also love the coaching analogy, the sports analogy, because for older children, I explain to them sometimes that it’s even with the emotional aspect. You know, we talked in the last podcast about how we can’t just make our kids happy all the time. Experiencing a wide range of emotions is normal, and we need to help them learn how to cope with those. This comes into play a lot with sleep because you hear your child cry when they’re tired, and it’s this automatic — we just feel this distress. But sometimes those same cries during the day — you take a toy away or you have an overly tired child who just wants to cry about everything — you can ignore them during the day a lot easier than you can at night. But we need to help them cope with these emotions. So it’s — what do I say to them? You’re not in this to play the game for them. You have to help teach them how to play the game themselves. Right? Like, we can’t hop in and do it for them all the time. With sleep, we’re coaching them. That’s my basic — I forget where I was going with that, but…

Laine: You were talking about how coaching as an analogy was working for — yeah, for helping them learn how to do it and being — I think you said it; like, not doing it for them but coaching them to do it, and that the older they get, I think you were talking about, that maybe that was a piece of it, too.

Alyssa: Yeah. I mean, a baby needs a lot more help and it takes a lot longer. When you have a two-year-old, it’s a lot different than a six- or nine-month old.

Laine: Right.

Alyssa: You know, they’re talking, walking, moving. They’re a little bit more — they’re smart. They can be tricky. They know how to get you to stay in that room a little bit longer. There’s no thirstier child than one you’re trying to get to bed. Mommy, I’m thirsty. Mommy, I’m hungry. Mommy, I need this.

Laine: Yeah, so does that — does your advice for parents change depending on all the things? You know, the child and the parent, whatever — because that’s a classic one that comes up for people. Like, my child has all the excuses and can crawl out of their crib and can crawl out of their bed or whatever. Do you have some wisdom to share with people who are really —

Alyssa: Bedtime routines. Bedtime routines are so important.

Laine: For the kids who don’t — for the parents who are like, we have a bedtime routine, and it involves bath time and books and me putting my child in bed, and then my child’s coming out of bed, like, a zillion times before they stay in bed. That’s the bedtime routine, and they’re sick of it and they don’t have any recourse. And I’ll tell you something, Alyssa: some of my clients have gotten some of the worse advice from pediatricians, including people to, like, lock their child in their rooms. That’s come straight out of the mouth of a pediatrician, and just, like — I want parents to know that if advice that you’re getting from a source doesn’t feel good, then it’s not good. It has to feel good to be good, and it should be something that is aligned with your values, something that’s aligned with your personality and also that will work for your child’s temperament because it just breaks my heart to hear people on the phone, and I hear it all the time, people crying; well, I did this and it felt terrible, but my pediatrician told me to do it, so I — you know, thinking that they were doing the right thing.

Alyssa: So when they work with me, I have them fill out an intake form for that reason. I want to know, what is your parenting style? What’s your child’s temperament? What have you tried in the past? What’s worked; what hasn’t worked? And what is your end goal? So I will make a plan based on that. Not what I think you and your child need to be doing, but what is your goal as parents? Maybe you have a one-year-old still breastfeeding exclusively, and you just to cut that down. You don’t want to eliminate all night feeds. Twelve months probably could sleep all night without a feed, but if you’re okay; you just want to have two feeds instead of five — okay. Let’s work our way back. Let’s eliminate a few of them and see how it goes. And typically, you know, at that age, we would probably end up eliminating all of them, but then it’s also the opposite. I might have a four-month-old client whose parents are, like, I need my baby to sleep all night. Well, okay. At four months, your baby probably still needs to eat at night, so let’s talk about what a realistic overnight looks like for this age. So sometimes the expectations aren’t quite — you know, they might be a little bit unrealistic.

Laine: Right. Same thing with parenting. We want our five-year-old, three-year-old, to set the table and then go up to bed by themselves. And I’m like, yeah, no. That’s not — that’s not a thing. Or it could be, but it’s very rare. So maybe you get this question a lot or this issue a lot that comes up; maybe this is a good place to overlap a little bit. I hear from parents a lot that they have some shame, like, a lot of shame that they don’t know how to parent, that they should know how to parent. Some people are more forthcoming and say, you know, well, I was raised by parents who I’m not looking to emulate. I want to be parenting differently than how my own parents parented me, and I don’t know how. There’s not so much shame there, but when people are, like, trying to do it differently and they can’t; they think that they should know how to do it naturally, and it’s not coming out the way — it’s like when you have a picture in your head and you start drawing, and it’s, like, nope, that’s not what’s in my head. Not at all. Right? I get that a lot. I hear that a lot from parents who are really struggling with this internal sense of, I should be able to do this. Do you get that with people who are — especially around sleep and in this culture of, well, just let them cry it out, or they’ll sleep when they’re tired. Do you find that parents struggle with that?

Alyssa: Yeah. It’s kind of like breastfeeding, right? We think it’s going to be this natural thing, and then when we really struggle with it, we think that there’s something wrong with us when nobody tells us as new moms that breastfeeding is really hard. Same with sleep. It’s just something that our bodies want to do naturally, and people tell you that newborns sleep all the time. Well, they do for a little while, and then they don’t. So when it hits the fan and you don’t know what to do, they start reading books. It’s this downward spiral of, well, I read this book and it didn’t work, so I gave up and now, like you, you just end up cosleeping if you don’t want to, and I have clients who have been cosleeping for three years, and the parents haven’t slept in the same bed for three years. Some families, that works. They do that by choice and it’s fine, but the ones who are calling me, it’s not because they love this situation. They’ve gotten there by desperation, and somebody’s not happy. So every family is so different, and I always warn people: if any sleep consultant comes in and says they have a plan and just one plan, or if it includes cry it out, you just say, thanks but no thanks. There is no one plan. If there was one way to do this, I could write a book and tell everyone what to do and be done. Right? And same with you. Every family is so different.

Laine: Well, what I see is that when people are willing to take a plan, kind of no matter what, it means that they’re actually going to start — they’re going to start walking down a path of, I’m going to do whatever works to get the behavior I want, no matter what. And that’s a path, from a parenting perspective, that’s a path of very authoritarian, very old-school parenting style. Right? Where it’s going to be harder if you’re not really showing flexibility; you’re not going into it with empathy. It’s going to be harder to develop those skills and that mindset toward your child and toward your parenting style as your child gets older. Right? So something that I think gets lost when parents are willing to pick up a solution — and I get why they do. Right? Like, I get why they pick up the, “I’m just going to let them cry and figure it out,” because they are at their wit’s end, and it’s overwhelming to think about it being a process. They want it to just be a simple solution. I get the temptation there. However, my cautionary tale to parents is, if that’s the way that you approach sleep, it’s likely going to inform how you’re approaching parenting in general, and that is — I rely on the science for this and I don’t come to this with judgment. The science absolutely tells us, and the research tells us again and again, that when you’re parenting with an authoritarian style of parenting of, we’re going to do this no matter what, and you’re lacking empathy in that, you’re going to get certain outcomes for your kids in the long term, and they’re never the outcomes that parents want. You know? Like, if I were to ask you, what are the outcomes you want for your daughter? What are your outcomes that you want for your daughter when she’s — push it out 20 years. She’ll be 27? What kind of woman do you want her to be?

Alyssa: I want her to be kind and successful and learning from me, right? Maybe running her own business. Yeah. I want great things for her. Right. Right.

Laine: Independent, right? You want her to be emotionally healthy?

Alyssa: Right.

Laine: Attract emotionally healthy partners?

Alyssa: Right.

Laine: Right? All that stuff; resilient, gritty. Right? All that stuff; self-assured. All that stuff are the outcomes that we know — we know that a certain type of parenting, a certain parenting path, gets. There’s not one right way to walk the path, but there is as path, and that’s what I call best parenting practices. Right? We know. The research is telling us again and again, and if you’re not walking that path, you are walking another path, which is to get insecure kids who are, you know, not as successful as they could be in the three big categories, which is work, school, and relationships. That’s just research. So I feel so passionate about having people start as early as possible making parenting choices that feel right to them to get the outcomes that they want. Never had somebody raise a hand in my course or my class or workshops that I run saying, I want my child to be insecure. I want my child to attract dysfunctional partners. Never, right? I would love to talk to that person. I think; maybe I wouldn’t want to talk to that person. But we don’t want that. That’s not our natural instinct, and it’s so — I like to think of the really early years of being a parent as training for the parents of how you want to be a parent. And then it sort of morphs into, how are we training our kids? How are we guiding and shaping them? But the early decisions, how we respond to them as infants, how we respond to them when they’re really little, when they’re preverbal, especially — that’s training ground for us. It’s essential training ground for parents for how we’re going to be. How are we going to listen? Are we going to ignore? Are we going to jump every single time? What is the sweet spot? What is the sweet spot for each particular parent? There is a sweet spot.

Alyssa: We talk a lot about that, and I like the term “sweet spot” because there are some parents who are fine ignoring, and then there are some who are jumping every time. And when you really talk about listening — they’re like, well, my baby’s just crying. What do you mean, listen? I’m, like, crying is communication. And they are — they can’t verbalize it, but there are different cries. Especially as a baby develops, those cries actually do sound different, and even before they sound different, take a look at what happened when your baby started crying. Was there something that you can actually take note of? A loud noise; maybe a dog barked and it disrupted something, or the sun moved just enough, and it’s shining right in their eyes. Taking note of what maybe happened to cause the crying instead of saying, oh, my baby must need food, or my baby needs to be held. Because some babies, as much as we want to hold them all the time, are a little bit — they just don’t need it. They need their own space a little bit more. And those are the ones who will cry. You know, grandma comes over and gets in their face and wants to pick them up right away, and then grandma feels bad, and I’m like, no. I call them space invaders. You just invaded the baby’s space. Move in a little bit slower. Give them time to adjust. My daughter was like that. She needs to assess everything that’s going on in that room before she decides where she wants to go and what she wants to do. If someone comes at her, game over. Babies are the same way. They have little personalities. I mean, it takes a while to figure them out, but —

Laine: But in those early stages, they’re little mammals, and they’re responding from that part of their brain and their being that’s the most developed, which is that limbic part of them, which is able to convey — like, my dog right now is conveying a message, right? She’s not using words, but I know what she wants. She’s sitting by the door. She’s having that little howl-cry, plaintive cry. I know she wants to go out. I also know that she’s already been out. She doesn’t need to go out, and when she does go out, she’s been super destructive lately. And it’s going to get louder, and she’s going to get upset. And if she were to — to be clear, because I never want to be at all misquoted or confused as saying kids are or should be treated the way that animals are treated — if she were a child, I do not believe in ignoring kids. I would be going over there. I would be getting down on her eye level, and I would say, oh, I know that you want to go outside and you’re so upset, and I see you’re so frustrated. And while leading her away, because if she’s not — while setting a boundary. We’re still not going outside. Let’s do something else. So it’s not just bait and switch, which I know that there’s a lot of parenting programs out there that are all about just redirecting a child’s behavior. But we’re not looking at just behavioral creatures. We’re looking at emotional, one day fully formed, human beings. Right? So the behavior is one piece of it, and to your point a moment ago about what parents are doing, it’s not just the what; it’s also the how. Like, how are you walking into your child’s room? Are you flinging the door open while they’re crying and being, like, oh, my gosh — because your babies are going to pick up on that energy, too. Right? So being responsible for our own energy before we engage with our kids, whether they’re crying or frustrated or being pissy or whatever it is, being responsible for our own energy is an essential piece to how they’re going to then react to us. How we respond to them informs how they react to us. It is a cycle, for sure.

Alyssa: Yeah. We talk about that. And, you know, they can pick up on our anxiety, especially around sleep. Like you said, you can go this whole day; you can drink your cup of coffee, have a glass of wine at night, but then all of a sudden you knew: it’s night. And you just feel this anxiety around sleep that you almost can’t help, but then your child senses that, which makes going to sleep even harder. But then you’re also sleep deprived, so of course you’re more anxious because you’re sleep deprived, and it’s just this vicious cycle. Probably 30 percent, maybe up to 50 percent of the parents I work with probably have some form of postpartum depression and/or anxiety, because I’m working with a lot of new moms. And that just escalates. That’s another vicious cycle. If you have it, sleep deprivation makes it worse. But even if you don’t have it diagnosed, maybe you have sleep deprivation, which is causing depression-like symptoms without being actually depressed. It’s just really hard.

Laine: But it doesn’t matter. If the symptoms are the same, it doesn’t matter what it is. You have to treat the symptoms, right? I was talking to a sports psychologist the other day, because I’m always curious about how sports training and sports psychology overlaps with parenting. It’s just this intersection that I find really fascinating, and it’s where I lean in with parenting. Let’s treat it like sports training, in the sense that you’ve got to be prepared for it. You’ve got to do some real training for it. There’s a pre-game. There’s a game time situation. There’s a post-game. You know, it makes sense to me because I grew up around athletics. But — oh, what were you just saying about —

Alyssa: Oh, depression and anxiety.

Laine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. So this sports psychologist, who also now works with women who are postpartum and have postpartum depression and/or anxiety, she was, like, oh, sleep deprivation — it’s not only, like, tied to it; it can be the cause of it. You know, back to this thing about sleep deprivation being a form of torture: it can absolutely trigger anxiety and depression. And I just was, like — I mean, I knew that, so when she said it, it wasn’t earth-shattering news to me, because I’d seen it — but to hear her say that with such, like, authority — I was just, like, wow, yeah. That’s a real thing.

Alyssa: The hormone shift that’s happening anyway after you have a baby — like, it’s the largest hormone drop of any mammal, I think, when you have a baby. And then add sleep deprivation on top of that, which as a human species, we can handle a little bit of it. Our bodies are made to handle a little bit of that after having a baby, but not months. We just can’t handle it.

Laine: And certainly not years. So what would you say to somebody — like, what would be advice that you would have for somebody who is struggling with sleep during this particular moment in time; the COVID situation; the unique time that we’re all going through around sleep, because, you know, people wonder, you know — they worry. They worry and they wonder, and I remember that feeling of, like, I know sleep is the most important thing. My baby’s brain is growing, and I have all this information about it, and I was definitely one of the more anxious people around sleep. I was like the sleep police. And I was also facing people who were saying, oh, it’s no big deal. It’s no big deal. So I felt like I was fighting the other side of it, which made me more vigilant. So it was hard to find that balance for myself. But I’m wondering, like, what would you tell somebody who is feeling like, I know sleep is super important, and I’m in this, like, bizarre situation at home where I’m working from home and there’s, like — there are noises around. There’s not quiet. It’s not ideal. So I’m struggling with sleep, and we’re in this bizarre time. Like, can you put anybody’s mind at ease? Like, beyond saying, like, well, your child’s not going to die. You know, they’ll survive. For people I work with, that bar is too low. You know? They want to be raising thriving, really healthy — like, optimizing their child’s childhood experience. Right? So do you have any just blanket wisdom or anything that could help them have their minds put a little bit at ease?

Alyssa: Yeah. I mean, you said it. Sleep is so important, and I think especially right now with a worldwide pandemic with this virus, proper sleep helps build our immune systems, so let’s try to get proper sleep. And even though we’re working from home — you know, like we said in the last podcast, let’s change your perspective. Instead of saying, maybe my kid won’t sleep enough because I’m here and I’m working and there’s all these noises. Let’s shift that and say, well, I’m home. I have a lot more opportunity. I don’t have anywhere I have to be at a certain time. Let’s focus on sleep. Instead of letting my kid say, oh, you don’t have a schedule and you can stay up until 10:00 now, let’s continue a pretty consistent bedtime routine, especially for kids — you know, you have teenagers; different story. For babies and toddlers — even my daughter; she’s 7. We walk back there at 7:30 at night. We brush teeth, put PJs on, we read a book, and I walk out at 8:00. So a 30-minute routine is pretty good. It gives you plenty of time to do kisses and cuddles and, you know, that’s plenty. But it’s so important because someday school will start again and work will start again, and it’s going be really, really hard on these parents who have to get back into a rhythm. So if you’ve gotten out of that rhythm, maybe you can slowly work your way back to getting them. And it’s hard. Like, here it’s summertime, which means at 8:00 when I leave her room, it’s still light out. But she’s still tired, so I just make it as dark as possible. But try to keep a consistent routine, and that’s a wake up time and a bedtime. And then if you have a younger kid who’s still napping, sound machines; make it dark in that room; crank the sound machine, and do what you can to keep the house as quiet as possible. And then you had mentioned some of your clients have kids who are crawling out of cribs. If you can wait until a kid is 3 to take them out of the crib, that’s better, because developmentally, they’re — before 3, they don’t really understand that this is a bed and I shouldn’t crawl out of it, and then you’re kind of having to shut the door and lock them in the room, which nobody wants to do. You’re essentially making — I tell parents who have to do that, consider the room now a crib. So you have to look at everything in that room and make sure nothing can fall on them; they can’t — there’s no — nothing that can hurt them, and you’re essentially turning the room into a crib. But before 3, it’s really hard. But there are some tricks. If you have a 2-year-old who’s crawling out of a crib and you’re afraid they’re going to hurt themselves, and if they wear a sleep sack and they can unzip it and crawl out of it, flip it around so that the zipper is in back. Maybe they can’t reach that zipper. If they’re really smart and can get at that zipper, put it on backwards and then put a little T-shirt over it. They would have to really work. They have to pull the T-shirt off. Just try to make it as hard, but it’s hard to climb out of a crib with a sleep sack over your feet. I have had some Houdini babies who even that doesn’t work, but for most, even just having the zipper in back, they — even if they can touch it with their hand, they can’t get it all the way down. So that’s one trick.

Laine: Houdini babies. That’s hilarious.

Alyssa: But make sleep a priority. Instead of saying, oh, I can’t — I just can’t — there’s no way I can get on a sleep schedule or get my kids back on a schedule. If you make sleep a priority and have some sort of routine — we need routines as adults, and kids especially need some sort of normalcy and routine.

Laine: Does it have to be to the minute? Bedtime is 7:30?

Alyssa: No.

Laine: What’s your take on that?

Alyssa: No. Give yourself some flexibility, especially for younger babies. Thirty minutes on either side. So let’s say a working parent; they need to be up — they need their baby up at 7:00 in the morning because they have to get baby fed and out the door. Now, on the weekends, let them sleep in until 7:30. If you go past that, you’re really messing with the natural rhythm of the baby’s sleep cycle that we’ve worked so hard to put in place, that they can sleep, you know, 7:00 to 7:00. You don’t want them to some days be able to sleep until 9:00 or stay up until 9:00. Even as adults, every hour of sleep that we lose, it takes us about a day to recoup. So time differences; if I fly to Seattle and visit my friend, three hours different, it takes me about three days to adjust. And I can deal pretty well with that, but for a baby, it’s really hard; really hard to deal with.

Laine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And parents get really nervous about traveling with babies, and how do I do this? And, again, this comes back to being aligned with what your values are. It’s okay to not travel with a baby. Even though you see people on planes with babies all the time, it doesn’t have to be you. Just getting really clear about where you stand and what’s important to you and why you’re doing what you’re doing. What’s your why? Is it because you feel guilty or is it because you feel jealous, or is it because you feel like you really, really need to go visit your mom? Those are all really different answers to the same question.

Alyssa: Yeah, I get asked a lot about travel. People want to travel with their kids a lot, and sometimes it’s just not conducive to have a three-hour time difference with a baby because you’ll probably have to go to bed really early or get them in bed really early, and that means you can’t go anywhere, unless you have the resources to hire a nanny or you’re visiting parents and they’ll stay. You know, you can put them to bed at home while you leave. You know, my client right now, they like to go camping. Before we part ways, how do we camping with this baby? And we talk through that. What does that look like? Go hiking after the nap; come back at lunch; put the baby down again.

Laine: Again, I think kids are so different. They come just so different. You don’t get to — it’s like getting a dog, right? If you want to, you can thumb through a book and find your ideal breed, and you can pick the type of dog that’s going to have, likely, like, 99 percent sure, you’re going to have the kind of behavior that you want from that dog, right? If you go to the pound and you’re going to get some sort of mix so you don’t know exactly what you’re getting, then you have to work with what you have. And that’s what parenting is. Parenting is, you work with what you have, and you don’t get to pick. And so I really — one of my favorite things to caution parents against is comparing other people’s outsides to their insides. Right? Like, what is your reality versus what you’re seeing somebody else in that moment having? If you’re somebody who wants to go camping with your baby, if you have the type of baby that can hack that, there’s nothing inherently wrong or bad about taking a baby camping, unless you’re going to artic. You know, perhaps that is not a good idea, right? But if you’ve got an “easy” baby and sleep is not an issue, or you’re happy snuggling together, great. That’s awesome. But if you don’t have an easy baby or sleep has been a huge issue in your house, then you’re not the family who’s going to — if you want to have the shit show afterward, you know, and you’re willing to go and take that risk and then it’s a calculated risk — it’s just not fair to then be upset with the baby or be upset with your child for being cranky afterward. You just to be informed, know what you’re doing, know what you’re getting yourself into when you take those risks. And I think it’s one of the most empowering things that parents can do, to be really clear about what they are and what they’re not willing to tolerate. Just like in life, right? What are you willing to tolerate, and what is your happiness equation? What are the elements of your happiness equation? It’s really important for people to know that and to get right with themselves so that they can live their best family life. And it’s not going to be a blueprint from somebody else’s family.

Alyssa: Yeah. Realistic expectations, again. You know, it’s just maybe sometimes telling them, sorry; I have to let you know that your baby’s not going to — based on working together, this activity you want to do won’t suit your baby — but now. Maybe later. Don’t give up on this dream to go camping. It might just have to wait a couple of years until your child is down to one nap a day instead of three. And again, like you said, you talked about being fluid instead of, like, having this solid — it needs to ebb and flow. Be flexible. Realize that your baby is a human who has separate needs from you, and just because you want to do this, your baby might not want to.

Laine: Part of the deal of becoming a parent. There’s sacrifices, you know? And it’s funny; like, I think that we talk about that a lot, right? Like, there’s a lot of sacrifices in parenting, or there’s a lot of sacrifices in marriage, or there’s a lot of sacrifices in whatever. But when it really comes down to it, when that happens, when you’re confronted with the sacrifice, it’s a very hard thing. It’s a tough pill to swallow. And I just — maybe a good sort of point for us here is to talk about or to ask the question of, like, what is it that is important, you know, and where are you willing to sacrifice? What is the sacrifice that you face when you’re a parent, and what are you — how do you respond to that? How do you respond to the fact that you’re being asked to sacrifice stuff? You know, it’s a tough one. I don’t think people have a high tolerance for that, especially in this day and age.

Alyssa: Yeah. We want things to go our way all the time.

Laine: All the time. All the time. Well, it was definitely a good conversation.

Alyssa: Yeah! We covered a lot! Well, why don’t you tell people again where they can find you if they have questions about the parenting end, before we sign off?

Laine: Sure. I have my website. You can also find me on Facebook, and I have a very slim social presence right now because most of the stuff I’ve been doing in my life and my career has been live and in person, but I’m slowly building a social presence. So definitely go to my website. And feel free to check out my online course. It doesn’t talk directly about sleep, but it does talk about discipline and the issues that follow, you know, if you’re having trouble with getting kids to cooperate and you’re facing a lot of meltdowns. It will definitely, definitely help you. And some of that is probably because they’re underslept, but it will help you anyway.

Alyssa: But the two go hand in hand. You know, a lot of times, to help them get to sleep better, they need a little bit of discipline, and then once that — you know, with consistency and the right discipline for that family, the child will understand, this is the new routine. I can sleep better, and then you no longer need to discipline because then it just becomes part of their routine.

Laine: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, the course will be — the free class will definitely be of help, and then people can also book a free call with me. And those are the main ways to find me. And I want my listeners to listen in to what you’re about to say, too, because I want them to be able to find you.

Alyssa: Yes, you can find us at our website. We’re on Instagram and Facebook, and this podcast is called Ask the Doulas.

Laine: So good. Thank you so much for having this conversation today!

Alyssa: Thanks for joining me!

Laine: My pleasure. We’ll do it again soon.

Parenting and Sleep: Podcast Episode #98 Read More »

Mental Health Awareness Month: Podcast Episode #97

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Parenting, Self-Care, Sleep / Alyssa Veneklase / babies, birth doula, birth support, colic, gold coast doulas, mood disorders, newborn care, newborn sleep, perinatal mood disorders, postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, postpartum doulas, pregnancy insomnia, pregnancy podcast, sleep tips

Dr. Nave now works with queens through her virtual practice Hormonal Balance. Today she talks to us about hormones and how they affect our mental health, including the baby blues and postpartum depression. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Hi. Welcome to Ask the Doulas Podcast. I am Alyssa Veneklase, co-owner of Gold Coast Doulas, and today, I’m excited to talk to Dr. Gaynel Nave, MD, and she works at Hormonal Balance. Hi, Dr. Nave.

Dr. Nave: Hi, Alyssa. Thanks for having me.

Alyssa: Yeah. It’s been a while since we’ve talked, but we were emailing a while ago, and we realized that it’s Mental Health Awareness Month in May, and then this week is Women’s Health Week. So you wanted to talk about baby blues and postpartum depression. So before we get into that, why don’t you tell us a little bit more about Hormonal Balance because last time you talked with us, you worked for — you were at a different place. So tell us what you’re doing now.

Dr. Nave: Okay. Awesome. So as of this year, I’m in my own practice, as you said. The name of it is Hormonal Balance. And so I am an Arizona licensed naturopathic physician, and here in Grand Rapids, I operate as a naturopathic educator and consultant to women, with all gender identities, to basically reconnect to their — who they are and directing their own health, hormonal health concerns. And that’s the reason why I went with Hormonal Balance, because our hormones affect almost every single aspect of our health, including when we wake up, our mood, our sexual health, all of it. And for us who are women or female-identifying, the medical community sometimes doesn’t listen to our concerns or minimizes our experience, and so I want to be a part of changing that and, you know, helping women be advocates for themselves and learn more about their bodies, basically.

Alyssa: Yes. Awesome. I love it. And then you can do — so even though you’re here in Grand Rapids, Michigan, you can do virtual visits, so technically, you can work with anybody anywhere?

Dr. Nave: Yep, yep, yep.

Alyssa: Cool. Well, we’ll tell people how to find you at the end, but let’s talk a little bit about the mental health aspect of, you know, bringing some awareness to it this month. And then, obviously, you know, baby blues and postpartum depression is something that we deal with on a regular with our clients. So how do you help your patients?

Dr. Nave: I call them clients.

Alyssa: Clients? Oh, you do?

Dr. Nave: Yeah, because here in Michigan, because my — there is no regulation for naturopathic physicians, even though I have my license. I function more as a consultant, so I call the people that I work with “clients.” And so the way in which I assist them is basically gathering information about their concerns as in-depth as possible because I’m not just going to look at you from the perspective of, oh, I’m experiencing this particular symptom, because nothing occurs in a vacuum. And so looking at you as a whole, how does what you’re experiencing affect you mentally, emotionally, and physically. And so we do the full assessment, and then a part of that is talking about and educating you on labs that are pertinent to you. So there are different types of hormonal labs that are available. There’s salivary. There’s urine. There’s blood. And so, like, making sure that the one that’s best and indicated specifically for you is what we talk about. It’s very individualized because each person has a different experience, even if we have the same diagnosis. Does that make sense?

Alyssa: Right. So you’re saying if somebody comes in, you do a pretty thorough — kind of like with my sleep clients, I do an intake form. Right? There’s no, like — you’re saying there’s no one blood lab for — oh, there goes my dog. I should have mentioned that we’re recording at home on speakerphone, and — okay. So what I was saying is with my sleep consults, I do an intake form because there’s no right answer for every family, so if somebody comes in and needs blood work done or — well, like you said, labs. Blood work might not be the right lab for them?

Dr. Nave: Yeah, because there’s — let’s talk about female hormones, for example. So the female sex hormones — and when I say female, I’m using the medical terminology for it, not like — so, like birth sex. You have ovaries — versus the gender identify. I’m still working through how to talk about these medical things and still be cognizant and respectful of the different gender identifies, so please forgive me if I say anything that’s offensive. So the female sex hormones — estrogen and progesterone — but these hormones don’t just occur in women. They also occur in men. So all gender identifies have these hormones involved, but specifically for those who can give birth, estrogen is involved in the building up of the uterine lining of the uterus so that implantation of a fertilized egg can happen. Progesterone is important for maintaining that uterine lining as well as maintaining healthy pregnancy so that you don’t lose the baby. Obviously, there are a lot more factors involved. These hormones, based on how the body breaks down balance specifically as it pertains to estrogen — we have three different types of estrogen, so it’s not just one form that’s in the body, and depending on what lab is done, you’re able to verify all three at the same time. The one that I’m thinking of right now is the urine test called DUTCH test. I really enjoy that one. I’m not promoting it right now, but I’m just explaining why I like it. So that particular type of analysis looks at all three of those types of estrogen in the body as well as how the body breaks them down. Is it able to get rid of it effectively, which gives information on the metabolic pathways. So there’s a lot more information that can be gleaned from — depending on what type of lab is utilized and depending on your specific concern and the way in which your symptoms are presenting; a more investigative or information-bent lab analysis might be indicated, and so being able to speak with someone like myself who is well-versed on the different approaches and all the different options can be really beneficial because then you don’t end up having to do multiple tests, you know, all that kind of fun stuff, or having to get blood drawn if you don’t have to.

Alyssa: Right. So what hormones are you looking for when somebody comes in and says, gosh, I think I have postpartum depression? Is it just hormonal, or do I really have — I guess, where do you as a naturopathic doctor, say, “I think I can help you with hormones,” versus, “I think you need to see a therapist”? Or do you do both?

Dr. Nave: So I will probably tell them to do both because postpartum depression, as with any mental health condition, is on a spectrum. So you have mild, moderate, and severe. Before we go into that, I think it would be important for us to define a couple things. Baby blues is feeling down or feeling a shift in your mood, like feeling more weepy, more exhausted, after giving birth, and this can last anywhere from a couple days up to two weeks. If it extends beyond that time or it’s interfering with your ability to function, then it would be classified as postpartum depression, and postpartum depression can occur in that same time frame as the baby blues, like soon after childbirth, within three to five days, up to a year after giving birth. And I’m going to read a couple of stats, so bear with me.

Alyssa: Go for it.

Dr. Nave: Just for a frame of reference. So postpartum depression affects up to 15% of mothers, and shifting to 85% of moms is that they get the postpartum blues, so that — these statistics may provide some form of comfort that you’re not alone. Please don’t suffer alone. If you’re feeling more down and you need more assistance from your family and friends, please reach out. If you’re a single mom, I’m sure that there are different groups, like single moms groups, or talking to your doctor or your friends who can be there to provide some emotional support for you during that time. Please, reach out to people. It’s not anything to be ashamed of. A lot of women go through it because our hormones, as I said previously, affect a lot of things, including our mood.

Alyssa: Right. I feel like mothers are getting a little bit more comfortable talking about how hard it can be and how maybe bad they feel or these thoughts that they’re having. You know, you talk to the older generations, like our mothers and grandmothers, who said, well, we didn’t talk about those things or we didn’t need help. And we’re slowly getting to the point where we’re seeing more and more families look for and seek out postpartum support, which is one of my favorite services we offer because they can work day and night. When a mom is suffering from any sort of perinatal mood disorder, having that in-home support that’s judgment-free can just be crucial to healing.

Dr. Nave: I totally agree with you. I’ve seen it in practice and the research back it up. Just being pregnant, much less giving birth, is hugely taxing on our body and increased your risk for feeling down. Some of it has to do with the hormonal changes. I’m going to go really science-heavy because I’m a nerd and I think it’s fun and interesting…

Alyssa: Do it! Teach us!

Dr. Nave: As I said, estrogen is responsible for the building up of the uterine lining, but it also affects things like our serotonin production, which you might know as the neurotransmitter involved in depression. Like, if you have low serotonin, then you might get depression. So the thing with estrogen is that it increases the production of serotonin by affecting a particular enzyme called tryptophan hydroxylase that is responsible for processing an amino acid that we get from our food called tryptophan into serotonin.

Alyssa: Isn’t tryptophan the one that makes us sleepy?

Dr. Nave: No.

Alyssa: Tryptophan isn’t the thing that we eat that makes us sleepy? What am I thinking? It’s in turkey and stuff?

Dr. Nave: Tryptophan is in turkey. Serotonin and melatonin have the same precursor in terms of amino acid but the thing about their bodies is they use similar substrates or building blocks to make stuff, and just because we have the same building blocks doesn’t mean that we’ll get that particular product. Does that make sense?

Alyssa: Kind of, I guess. In my sleep work, I talk about serotonin and melatonin a lot just for, you know, sleep cycles and feeling alert and then feeling sleepy, but I didn’t realize that a lack of serotonin can cause depression. I’m trying to, in my brain, you know, the science of sleep, then — it makes sense, then, that people who are depressed sleep a lot, right? Am I going down the right path here? Because if you don’t have enough serotonin to make those hormones makes you feel awake and alert — sorry, I’m getting you totally off track by asking these questions. Sorry!

Dr. Nave: No, no, no. I don’t think you’re going off track because sleep is very much an important part of the postpartum depression process. If Mom isn’t sleeping, she’s at a greater risk for experiencing postpartum depression, and we know that the hormonal changes affect our sleep. Also having a baby, a newborn baby — if the baby’s up crying, and they’re getting their sleep regulated; you’re adjusting to waking up and feeding the baby, feeling exhausted during the day, and your sleep is thrown off in terms of it not going or being matched up to when the sun rises and the sun goes down. You’re more trying to sync to the baby, and that can lead to fatigue, which then exacerbates your mood, which makes you then more susceptible to feeling more down. And then it’s like — one of the things that they mentioned is that babies who have a hard time sleeping — there seems to be a relationship between moms who have postpartum depression — so the baby isn’t sleeping; Mom tends to have a higher likelihood of having postpartum depression, but then the opposite is also true. So if Mom has postpartum depression, it seems that the baby also as a result has a hard time regulating their moods and being more colicky and all these other things. So taking care of yourself also helps the baby; it’s important to support Mom, which is why I’m so grateful that you guys have the postpartum doulas, and you guys do a lot of work with supporting moms post-baby. Sometimes people focus so much on the baby that they forget the mother.

Alyssa: Oh, absolutely. It’s all about the baby.

Dr. Nave: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the hormonal mood connection is very complex, and it’s not just A + B = C, you know, because, yes, estrogen influences serotonin production, but there are other factors that then influence, you know, the mood. Does that make sense? Specifically, when it comes to the mood changes or the hormonal changes in early pregnancy and postpartum – early pregnancy, we see the estrogen or progesterone levels are shifting because you’re now pregnant, so the body doesn’t have to produce as much of those hormones. And when we have lower estrogen, which is what happens when you get pregnant, and since estrogen is responsible — or, rather, plays an important role in serotonin, which helps you feel calm when it’s at the normal level — if it’s particularly high, it can lead to anxiety-type symptoms. If it’s really low, depression-type symptoms. During those times when the estrogen is lower, there’s this lower mood that can also be accompanied by it. Are you tracking?

Alyssa: Yeah.

Dr. Nave: Yeah. So that’s the estrogen portion. So estrogen affects serotonin production and also directly affects the neural networks in your brain. Now, we have progesterone. So progesterone: I like to think of it as our calm, happy hormone. And so when you’re just about to have your period, usually it helps you sleep. It helps you remain calm. But if it’s really low, that can lead to insomnia, feeling really agitated and grumpy, and those kind of symptoms can also happen postpartum and early pregnancy. And so that’s how the hormonal fluctuations can then manifest with the depression. For the reason, at least in the postpartum stage, that these hormones might drop is that you give birth. There’s a huge change because the body doesn’t have to maintain the hormones to keep the baby inside. The baby is now outside of you. And it really drops off really quickly, and that huge shift can then lead to the baby blues. Then if it prolongs, your body having a hard time regulating, then that’s when we shift from the blues to the depression. In terms of what I would do, I would assess what exactly is going on for you. Do you have physical and emotional support? Do you have a history of depression or any mental health condition prior to being pregnant? Have you had postpartum depression before? How is your sleep? You know, sleep is really important. If we can get you sleeping, I think that goes a long way. Good quality sleep.

Alyssa: You’re preaching to the choir here. I think it’s one of the most important things!

Dr. Nave: The other thing that they mention, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, is that if Mom has any feelings of doubt about pregnancy, that can also influence her feeling depressed because it can get, like, amplified during that time.

Alyssa: So you’re saying, like, maybe doubting if they wanted to become pregnant?

Dr. Nave: Maybe, or doubt that she’s capable of being a good mom, because there’s a lot of pressures on moms, you know? Like, oh, someone will mention, like, oh, my baby’s sleeping through the night, or my baby — you know, they started eating at this time. So there’s a lot of pressure to meet certain milestones that are from society, and that can amplify feelings of inadequacy that Mom might have had prior to becoming pregnant. And so addressing that piece with a therapist or someone like myself will be a very important part of supporting her with the postpartum depression and getting her out of the state. For some women, medication might be what they need to do, and their healthcare provider will be able to assess that. But it’s not the only thing that’s available. There’s therapists; there’s hormonal intervention, because if it’s a hormonal issue, if you address imbalance, then women get relief pretty quickly. There’s having a doula, if that’s something that’s accessible to you, or if you have family members who are close by, asking them to help out some more. Having people provide meals for you so then you don’t have to cook; having your partner be a part of taking care of the baby and asking them to step up some more to give you additional support. Basically, asking for what you need is — I know it can be really vulnerable and scary if you’re not used to asking for help, but that can really be important in terms of getting what it is that you need because no one is in your exact position and knows exactly how you need to be supported. Does that make sense? Because I can talk about, like, a doula and a therapist and a naturopathic doctor, but you know what you need, and I want you to trust yourself in that knowledge. You know what you need! And here are all these different options to provide that.

Alyssa: So you mentioned something a bit ago, and I don’t know what made me think of this, but how — let’s say a mother came to you pregnant and had postpartum depression before and knew that she — you know, her hormones are all over the place. How much can you actually do in regard to hormones while pregnant? Is there any risk to Baby? You know, risk of miscarriage? What does that look like for a mom who’s pregnant but knows she needs some help from you?

Dr. Nave: So in terms of working with me specifically, I wouldn’t want to mess with her hormones during that time. I would employ other tools, one of which is homeopathy, which basically supports the body’s own ability to heal and regulate itself. As well as putting a plan in place — basically, working alongside her other healthcare providers to create a plan to support her and make sure that the transition is as smooth as possible. What does she do if she notices that she’s trending from green and happy, healthy, thriving, into, I’m not doing so hot — what are the resources available to me when I’m at that place? Who do I reach out to? Who do I talk to? What supplemental intervention needs to happen? Do I need to talk to my doctor about starting me on medication? There are so many different options, and prevention is always better than cure. We would talk about what her issues — so she’s coming and she’s had it before — we would talk about what was her previous pregnancy like; when did the symptoms start to occur; what did they look like; what sort of things — what sort of red flags occurred during that time; what was the intervention utilized at that time; what were her hormone levels like? What else; what were any medications that she was on; what medications is she on presently? And, basically, maybe even talk about how that pregnancy is different than this pregnancy. Like, does she feel more supported now? What were the things that weren’t present in the previous one that she does have presently? You know? And basically coming up with a plan.

Alyssa: Yeah, I like that. So it’s kind of like what we do, you know, throughout birth. It’s talking about all those what-if scenarios and what plans do you have in place for if any of these happen. And then, like you said, once Baby comes home, nobody plans for that. They’re so worried about the pregnancy and the labor and delivery part that they come home and go, oh, shoot. What do I do now? So it sounds like that’s a really healthy way to plan during pregnancy, if you do have any sort of mood disorder, to find a professional like yourself to sit down and say, hey, let’s go over all these things and put a plan in place, and then I’ll be here for you postpartum. And then we’ll talk about what we can do then. I like that.

Dr. Nave: Right, because, as I said, there’s so many different options. For one woman, maybe hormones, just giving her the hormones, is what she needs, and then I would, you know, work with her other — because I can’t prescribe hormones at the level that would be therapeutic, but I would be able to recommend, okay, that’s what you need. Let’s talk to your doc. Hey, Doc. This is the plan. If this happens, this is what we’re going to do so that she doesn’t have to suffer. You know? Or maybe it’s something else. Just being able to work with someone who — again, like myself — who is savvy on that in terms of knowing — yeah, it definitely needs a collaborative approach, which is what I’m about. In my head, in my dream, everyone would have a health team, you know? People, health professionals, who are all in communication with each other who are just there to support you and help you thrive. But I think to wrap up, it would be sleep, health, get your hormones evaluated. If you’re thinking of getting pregnant and you have any mood disorders or any mental emotional concerns, as part of your pregnancy plan, you should be working — ideally, you would be working with a mental health professional as well, just to insure that you have the support that you need and you’re processing stuff effectively, because those concerns, those mental health concerns, can be substantially amplified once you become pregnant, as well as after giving birth. If you have a mental health condition or if you’ve had postpartum depression before, you are at significant risk for developing it again. And this applies to — postpartum depression can also occur if you have a loss of a baby, so it’s not just if you’ve given birth, but any form of baby loss can also result in postpartum depression.

Alyssa: Yeah, I can imagine it would probably be even amplified with that because you still have the hormonal shift, that drastic hormonal shift, and then grief on top of it. So it probably takes it to a whole new level. Well, thank you for all of your expertise. I always love talking to you. I would love for people to know how to find you at Hormonal Balance, if they want to reach out.

Dr. Nave: Yeah. I am on Instagram and on Facebook as @drgaynelnave. I’m in the process of getting my website up, so I’ll update you on that afterwards, or you can call my clinic at 616-275-0049. If you have any hormonal or mental health concerns and you want to optimize your health team, you want a second opinion, or you just want some additional support — that’s what I do!

Alyssa: Thank you! During this Covid pandemic, can you see people in person, or are you choosing to do virtual only right now?

Dr. Nave: I’m choosing to do only virtual at this point. I see clients virtually most of the time Wednesdays through Fridays, actually, from 8:00 to 5:00 p.m., and in person at 1324 Lake Drive Southeast, Suite 7, Grand Rapids, Michigan 49506.

Alyssa: So once the stay at home order lifts and things get a little bit more back to normal, you’ll be seeing people in person again?

Dr. Nave: In person, yes. But for now, we will see each other virtually!

Alyssa: Thanks for your time! Hopefully we’ll talk to you again soon!

Mental Health Awareness Month: Podcast Episode #97 Read More »

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Parenting During Covid-19: Podcast Episode #96

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Parenting, Self-Care / Alyssa Veneklase / birth support, gold coast doulas, newborn care educator, parenting class, pregnancy podcast

Today we talk with Laine Lipsky, parenting coach, about some best practices for parenting during the COVID-19 pandemic. She gives us all some great tips on how to manage stress and deal with out children no matter what age! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Hello and welcome to the Ask the Doulas Podcast. My name is Alyssa Veneklase, and today I am talking to Laine Lipsky, a parenting coach. How are you?

Laine: Doing great. How are you doing?

Alyssa: Great! So we kind of met online and talked, what was it, last week, and then just realized we have a lot to talk about and a lot of similar clients. With my sleep stuff — we’re actually going to talk about sleep on a separate podcast, but that kind of is what got us started talking about your parenting, coaching with parents, and then thinking about how does that relate right now to this pandemic that we’re all, you know, going through together. Myself included, we’re stuck at home with a kid, and I know personally, I think about my frustrations, but I forget that she’s also going through this. I don’t want to forget about, how is she handling this and how do I best talk to her, and how do I maybe help with some of the frustrations that I’m having, which are normal and to be expected, but maybe I could find better ways to cope with those. And then we got talking about the weather earlier, and the weather even affects all this. So let’s just kind of — you know, I would love to hear some ideas that you have on best ways to parent our children right now.

Laine: Yeah! Well, let me first start by saying, I’m really glad to be here and having this conversation, and of course we met online, because how else are people going to be meeting these days, right? Like, it’s classic. But that — and I’m going through this, too, and my kids are older. They’re 12 and 14, so there are different considerations, but I am in the same boat as everybody else, and I never pretend to be, you know, something that I’m not. But they still need parenting, so no matter how old your kids are — and I think your clients have younger kids, typically — but just know that, you know, whatever parenting style you’re using now is training ground for as they’re getting older. Whatever we practice when they’re younger becomes our habit as they grow older. And what I see really from the parents who I talk to, and I’m just reaching out a lot these days and just trying to ask a lot of questions — you know, what are people struggling with? I want to say that, in answer to your question, you know, the best way to parent, I wholeheartedly believe that there’s not one right way to parent. There isn’t. There’s great information out there, but there is a right way that’s going to feel right to you, Alyssa, right? Something that’s going to feel right to me. We may be working with the same body of information, but it’s going to sound different for you. It’s going to look different in your family because your family system is different than mine and from everybody else. We each have our unique thumbprint in our family, our unique voice, our unique soul-print, and our kids are all different. Different ages, different temperaments. So I really resist the idea that there is a best way or there’s one right way to parent. What we do know is that there are, just like in medicine when they talk about best practices, there are definitely best practices that are supported by ample research and, you know, certainly in my world, supported by the clients who I work with and in my own experience by what I see with my own kids. And there are just a few fundamental things. Uusually when you cover the basics in a really healthy, thorough way, you’re kind of covering the essential ground, and I think the word essential is really — it’s just so fitting for this time, right? Like, there’s essential business. There’s essential — you know, what is — this question of “essential” keeps coming up, and so I think a really good place to start in figuring out the best way to parent is to ask. And so I’ll throw the question back to you: what feels essential in your parenting?

Alyssa: Right. Right. So, I mean, right now, I feel like we’ve got so much extra thrown at us. I’m not a teacher, which I’ve never had to be a teacher before. So right now, her education is essential. But I also own a business, and that business is essential. And I’m also a wife and maintaining that relationship when we’re both home together and can potentailly be driving each other nuts, right? So I feel like there are a lot of essential aspects, but I also feel like the short temperedness of, you know, just I’m not meant to be home with a seven-year-old all day long, seven days a week.

Laine: Certainly! Certainly not while you’re also trying to run a business and also trying to do all the other things, right? If you were locked in and homeschooling, yes, you would be meant to do that, right?

Alyssa: Yeah, and I’d probably — yeah, I would have found a rhythm by now, and maybe that’s what it’s going to take is just, you know, maybe in another month, I’ll have a really good rhythm. But yeah, I guess essential for me right now is the happiness of my family unit and keeping my relationship with my husband whole, as well as my daughter happy. She’s seven and silly, and I’m just not as goofy as her classmates, and she’s got to get all these sillies out, but I’m in the middle of, you know, writing a sleep plan, and so her silliness is annoying to me. It’s just this, you know, on and on. And I feel like this is one small — and I have one daughter. So families who have three, four, five children — like you say, there’s no one way to parent, and even within the same family unit, each child might have to be parented a little bit differently because of their temperament. But, yeah, I think getting down to the core of what’s essential for your family and then going from there is really helpful.

Laine: Yeah. And I think what — a few things popped up for me as you were talking. Number one, I think parents feel — loving parents like you, right, well-meaning, best-meaning — you want the best for your kids — fall into this parenting trap of, like, I just want my child to be happy. Right? And I call it a trap because what happens when we witness our kids experiencing unhappiness or some sort of discord is then that triggers us. If we have this belief of, I just want my child to be happy, even if it’s unconcious, right, it filters into everything that we do, and when we witness them having some sort of difficulty or challenge, our instinct becomes to swoop in and, like, fix it and make them happy. If we change that inner — and I’m all about self-talk and, you know, what is our intentionality in our parenting — I want you to be happy, too, but there’s a trap in saying that as the goal, to be happy. If we find a different frame for that, a different word for that, a rebranding, if you will, right, of what we’re really after for our kids, it can take off a lot of pressure from us as parents. So I’m not saying there is — what the replacement word is. I can give you some examples or some ideas, and sometimes I can just see in parents, like, their shoulders go down a little bit, right? One word that might be a little less loaded than “I just want my kid to be happy” is, “I want my child to learn how to be resilient.” You know, how to bounce back from things. So, for example, if we were to go with that word as the intention, then what happens is, when you’re seeing your child struggle, when you’re seeing your child have a difficult time, it’s not — the instinct doesn’t become, how do I swoop in and fix this to make her happy? It’s, how do I sit with this and help guide her through an opportunity to become resilient. Right?

Alyssa: And that sounds like the perfect word right now because even as adults, we have to be resilient through this unknown for an unknown period of time.

Laine: Totally. And so how do we model resilience? As your child gets older, it becomes — and I have lots of clients with kids who are older, and sometimes we start when their kids are older and, you know, I say, it doesn’t — it’s not a lost cause if your child’s already 12 or already 15. It’s harder, but our brains are so plastic and our brains are resilient, naturally, that if we train in a different way, we will develop new habits. It’s totally possible to teach old dogs new tricks when it comes to parenting. It is. So I’m a full believer in Pavlov’s psychology in that way and training. Right? I mean, it works. So when you are — as your kids are getting older, it becomes more and more important for us as parents to be modeling for them what it looks like to be that thing that we want them to be because I guarantee you by the time your child is seven, maybe even younger — if you were to ask her in any particular moment, what am I going to say to you right now? You’ve said that thing, whether it’s time for bed or it’s time to brush your teeth or it’s time to, whatever, get your shoes on — I guarantee you, she will know what you’re going to say, in 99% —

Alyssa: Oh, she already does that to me. Absolutely. She’ll tell me before she asks a question — she already knows my response, so she’ll preface it with my response.

Laine: I know you’re going to say no —

Alyssa: Right, right.

Laine: I know you’re going to say maybe, but I’m going to ask. Right? So, good. That means you’ve been doing your job of being consistent and a consistent messenger. Consistent salesperson of your values and where you stand. So she knows where you stand. That’s awesome. Then what becomes a slow but steady and sometimes really challenging journey for parents is to just start modeling these things and to start shifting the focus back to ourselves, which is very counterintuitive because we spend so long so enmeshed with them. Right? Parenting is, like, the ultimate enmeshed relationship, slowly untangling so that we find the boundaries between us and them so that they’re actually seeing what we want them to be receiving. Does that make sense?

Alyssa: Yeah. They can sense our anxiety and our nervousness and maybe our fears with what’s going on right now. So I like that. You know, take a step back and say, how am I going to react to this because I know she’s watching or they are watching. They’re learning how to react by watching us react.

Laine: Right. And so another level to the answer of your question, how best to parent, would be, how are you parenting yourself right now? What are the messages and all the things that go into it, right? What’s your self-talk and how you’re handling your own stress? What is your self-care? These are the pillars of what I teach. Right? Self-talk and self-care; self-regulation. Right? And then having the outer skills to be actually helping your child navigate some of these things. But if you’re just saying the things and you’re not doing the things that you know are going to be helpful, then it’s going to fall flat and will fall on deaf ears eventually. So an example; let’s talk about your — you know, that you can’t be silly; you’re trying to work, right? And she’s trying to be silly and it’s, like, probably annoying to you. Right? If we’re going to be honest. And it gets frustrating because you’re trying to get stuff done, and you can’t feed that need that she has to be silly. Right? Well, what happens around that? Right? Let’s call that awareness building. Like, do you start saying to yourself things like — a lot of — I’m not trying to, you know, coach you here necessarily —

Alyssa: I’ll be an example. It’s fine.

Laine: — a lot of parents who will say things like, you know, well, that starts a whole series of self talk in my own head which is, like, I’m a bad mom or I can’t do this or I wasn’t cut out for this or, you know, oh, I just — things have to be different now, when they actually can’t be different, and it just sort of drives that negative thinking further and further into feeling solid, and it stops us from feeling fluid. Right? So — and it closes us down to what is possible. I always ask, like, what is possible? What’s possible for time that you can set aside to be silly. If you’re not the silly mom, maybe that’s just not your thing. That’s not your style of parenting. So where can she get the sillies out? Is it — you know, could she — then that’s a new conversation, right? How do we address that need without putting the burden on ourselves and having to figure it out for them. Oh, I see she’s got a need to be silly, so can she perform something? Could she put on silly clothes? Could she — the possibilities there are kind of endless, but what I’m trying to do, and I feel like my particular skill with parents, is to change the upfront question so that then we can open up different doors of possibility. Right? It’s not, like, how do I get her to be entertained. It’s, like, how do I figure out how to meet that need or get that need met for her? And I might not be the best person. Maybe it’s — sometimes it’s the partner. Sometimes it’s crafting or sometimes it’s a different outlet, but it doesn’t have to be you, and that’s one option. Another option is could it be, or could you be open to that possibility of being, like, I don’t know, I’m not naturally the silly mom, but, like, I’m being called to this in this moment. Could I, you know, put some boundaries around work and explain to her, you know, once I finish this — or maybe try to be silly first. Maybe her silliness, her call, her invitation to be silly, will actually help your work. What about that? What if you — like, this is how I’m just — like, I get playful with this stuff. Right? Like, what if you were, like, I’m going to — like, I’m going to really commit to being silly here, and I know it’s, like, for us intellects, it’s like, okay, I have to, like, decide how to be silly. I’m going to make a plan for being silly —

Alyssa: I have to schedule it in my day. Silliness at 2:00.

Laine: I need to put on the silly makeup; I’ve got to find the — okay. So you do that thing. You get silly. You have a frame around it, so 20 minutes. I’ve got 20 minutes. Let’s be super silly. And you just, with reckless abandon, get silly, and you hold a boundary at the end of it, and there’s an end to it. Maybe you film it. Maybe she watches it on the replay. You know, there are lots of options there. And then I’d be curious — this is genuine curiosity — I’d be curious how your work was then informed by that.

Alyssa: Yeah, it’s a great idea.

Laine: What lightness would be brough to it? What fun — what more fun would you bringing to work, and how would that manifest itself in the outcome of your work itself? How much more fun would you have working if you just had, like, a half-hour playtime beforehand?

Alyssa: And it truly — that’s all it takes. Twenty to thirty minutes is a lifetime to kids. You know, they don’t know if 20 minutes is any different than 2 hours. I mean, granted, she’d love to hold me — hold my attention for 2 hours, but, yeah, 20 minutes —

Laine: Held hostage!

Alyssa: Yeah.

Laine: I hear that a lot.

Alyssa: Close to it.

Laine: Well, better for her to hold your attention or hold you hostage in a positive way than having her hold you hostage in a negative way, because unfortunately, that’s what ends up happening with a lot of parents is they don’t dive in fully with both feet for the 20 minutes, and then for the — instead, what they get for the rest of their day is their child or their kids clamoring for their attention in negative ways. And kids are going to — I worked with kids for years before I started working with parents. I know this one for sure: that if kids don’t get it in a positive way, they’re going to seek it in any way they can, and at the end of the day, they don’t care how they get your full attention. So they’re going to do whatever it takes to get it, and if that means that the only time that you — and I say “you” as a universal you, not you, Alyssa, but you — the only time you put down your phone and you look at them is because you’re so mad and you’re so frustrated that that’s the only time you are making full eye contact with them, putting your full attention on them — I guarantee you, that is going to feed their association with, “this is how I get Mommy or Daddy’s full attention.” Does that make sense?

Alyssa: Yeah. It does. So for a parent with four children, that just means they might need to take some time, you know, depending on the age of the children, I would imagine — you know, 20 minutes each? Or maybe if there are two that are similar ages, you give 20 to 30 minutes to those two at the same time, but that just maybe takes a little bit more planning for somebody with more children to try to give them some dedicated time each day?

Laine: Yeah, and so it’s — this is a really unique time to be figuring all this out, and I kind of get resistant about being, like, “schedule this, then schedule that and schedule that,” and I’m really more of a fan of having rhythms in the day. So, like, sort of a play time, and then there’s a down time, and then there’s a, you know, an alone time, and then there’s a together time. But figuring out what rhythms. Some kids want to be alone in the morning. Some kids want to be alone later in the day. You really have to know your kid. When it comes to having multiples, so let’s just say you’ve got two, three, or four kids. Right? I mean, but — or twins. I said multiples, so it could be twins, too. I have found that it’s easiest for parents to think about spending, like — dividing and conquering in one of two ways, either going by age — so you take the two olders and do something that’s sort of that age-appropriate, or you take the two youngers and you do something that’s sort of age-appropriate for them. Right? That’s usually how people do it. But another way to think about it is to take them, if you can, by temperament. So if you’ve got two kids who are really high-energy — could be an older one and a younger — if you have four, could be your oldest and your youngest, but they’re both super high energy — it might be easier on the parents to take them as a pair, and if your middle two are quieter and more sedentary, to pair it that way.

Alyssa: Yeah. That’s a great idea.

Laine: So a lot of different ways to — I call it just dividing and conquering, and tag-teaming. If you have — if you have a partner and the schedules are aligned and you can make it happen, you know, a lot of us feel guilty when we don’t have this perfect notion of, like, everybody’s spending family time together. Family time doesn’t have to be everybody all together doing the same thing in the same place. Family time can be very, very well spent separating, tag-teaming, I call it; dividing and conquering, whatever, doing your own thing; doing what feels best to each pairing; having the parents flip around from time to time is a good idea, too; mixing it up, and then all coming together, and then suddenly you find you’re sitting at dinner, and you’ve got more stuff to talk about, you know? Even if the afternoon playtime session is, say, you know, 20 minutes, and one parent takes two, and the other parent takes two, and you watch something different, or you’re doing a different puzzle. At least there’s been a different kind of experience and you’re not all in the same experience at the same time, because then there quickly becomes nothing to really — nothing novel to spark the conversation or to keep the energy new.

Alyssa: Yeah. I like that.

Laine: It’s like the same people at the party. Same people at the party all night long. It’s fun when new people arrive.

Alyssa: Yeah. You can talk about what the other group did, and then you’re not — you can actually enjoy the time in segments together but apart because you’re not constantly trying to round and wrangle this one kid who doesn’t want to do the puzzle, who wants to play outside and just becomes this chaotic — more of a hassle.

Laine: Yeah, and I think that anytime we can look at getting back to this idea of “essential” and what is best parenting, right? What is really — like, what is the value that you hold? So — and then sort of letting go of how that has to be, how that has to happen. Going more after the what and letting go of the how. So one example: a client of mine, she’s like, “I just want to have family meals together,” and her kids were older, and she was so upset that, you know, they’re — one child had this, you know, violin practice after school, and another child had team practice in the evenings, and she had things going, and they weren’t having dinner together, and she was so upset about it. But she was missing out on the fact that every morning, her family was having breakfast together. And I was like, where — like, the idea of having a meal together once a day — why does it have to be dinner? Let’s let go of the how, right, and let’s look at the what. And she was, like, oh! We have a meal together every day! But nothing changed in her reality. It was just looking at it differently. She was, like, oh, dinner is our sort of chaotic — you know, she started calling it the dinner dance, and she was, like, we’re doing the — and just everything lightened up around it, and before that, she was just feeling so, so heavy about it. And sometimes all it takes is, like, a reframe and a perspective shift about what’s going on. So getting back to what is really essential; what is your value, and where are you getting that? And, you know, I’m not somebody who, like, sprinkles sunshine all over the place, but I do believe in looking at what is really going on and what is working as a starting point and moving from there to, okay, what do we need to tweak, because sometimes if you go into something, this just isn’t working, it’s like you miss out on the pieces that are working. You think you need a total overhaul when in fact you don’t. You might just need a few tweaks.

Alyssa: Right. So we talked a little bit before about weather — because we’re on opposite ends on the country and how weather can play, and you’ve lived all over, you know, and we — I was telling you that we just had one of our most beautiful weekends in Michigan in a long time, and it’s spring and gorgeous, and it’s been so cold that everyone was so happy to get outside, whereas you have kind of beautiful weather all the time. So it’s like you take it for granted and these little things. People are like, oh, my gosh, it’s raining. Will we ever see the sun again? And you’re like, yep, tomorrow. We’ll see the sun tomorrow. But weather plays a huge factor in our mental health. You know, when we have a week straight of dreariness, it is really hard, and then tack on quarantine with that, right; we can’t go outside. It’s too cold; it’s raining; it’s muddy. Now you’re stuck inside and you’re not getting vitamin D, and you just feel it; you feel it in your core. It’s almost like this heaviness just sets in. But the sun, you know; the sun seems to relieve it for us in Michigan, anyway.

Laine: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a really real thing, and, you know, another way to — I spoke to somebody — I have lots of family — I’m from New York City, so I have lots of family back east, too, and sometimes — at least, this was a week ago — maybe two weeks ago, so things change, you know, as we’re going through this. It’s like what felt okay two weeks ago might not feel good now or feel okay now, but at least what they were saying two weeks ago was, well, when it’s raining, at least I’d be inside anyway. You know, when it’s crappy out, at least I’d be inside anyway, so there’s not this pull to go outside to be rained in. I think that — look, I don’t have, like, a magic answer for that. I think the more anybody can get outside, the better. I think that, you know, that’s just science. That’s not me even talking. What I also know about our own well-being: getting our kids outside and getting fresh air — they don’t care if they’re cold. If you bundle them up — you know, my brother lives in Seattle, and he’s a big fan of saying, there’s no such thing as bad weather, just bad gear.

Alyssa: True!

Laine: You know, so you bundle up properly; you get the right rain gear on, you know. I went on a — I did a 30-day mountaineering course a long time ago in a mountain range in Wyoming, and, you know, we were suited up for whatever came. So, you know, we did whatever we did, whether it was raining or snowing or, you know, whatever. So I believe in that, too. And, you know, so I think bundling them up and getting them outside — you may not want to be out in it. I totally get that, but let them go out; let them breathe some fresh air. For the adults, there’s lot of science around this concept of getting some benefit, some of the same benefit you would get if you were to go outside by just looking outside. So if you position yourself near a window, if you have a view — you know, I know people like my family in New York City, sometimes the view is a brick wall. Like, that might not feel so good. But watching a nature video is not the best, but it’s better than nothing. You know, there’s a reason why they play a lot of those nature videos in waiting rooms and doctors office, right, to just, like, have people chill and relax. Listening to nature sounds on your, you know, your radio station or your Alexa or whatever you’ve got going on in your house and just having that as the backdrop for your home can be a very soothing thing to do. And, again, it’s not — I’m not saying that will solve the issue, but it’s better than nothing.

Alyssa: Well, I think this is really helpful stuff. Is there anything else that, you know, just a parent right now going through this, that you would love for them to hear or know, and then tell them how to get ahold of you, too. I mean, even though we’re on opposite ends of the country, I feel like virtual support is just kind of the thing right now, so we can support people anywhere.

Laine: For sure. And I have an online course designed for just that. Yeah, I think what I want to tell parents is to remember that you’re not alone, and as trite or as cheesy as that may sound right now, it’s really important to remember to universalize what you’re going through and just pay attention to how you’re talking to yourself, what you’re saying to yourself, because that’s the stuff that will sink in and eventually will come out at your kids. So just keep your self-talk top of mind. Right? Be really, really aware of what you’re saying to yourself. So, you know, I’m going to just practice self-compassion; kindness. You know, make sure you’re doing your best to talk to yourself the way you would talk to a really good friend or the way you’d want a good friend to talk to you, and if that’s a totally foreign concept to you, that is a practice that can be learned. It’s something that I teach. And as far as getting in touch with me, you can visit my website, and I’ve got a free course there. People can watch that and certainly get a lot of great information about discipline without breaking their child’s spirit and without losing their own mind, which I think is essential right now. And if anybody listening to this knows — I just want to give a special shoutout to people who are, like, yeah, I know parenting is hard, but, like, my situation, it’s, like, really hard. Like, they’re really struggling. Then I just invite you to book a free call with me. And that’s a free session, and I’m happy to have a conversation, a parenting conversation, and see how I can help people. Happy to do it.

Alyssa: Well, thank you so much for joining! We will have another podcast after this. We’re going to talk about sleep and parenting.

Laine: Awesome. Sounds great. Can’t wait!

Alyssa: Thanks for listening, everybody!

Parenting During Covid-19: Podcast Episode #96 Read More »

A new mom and dad pose in a hospital room with their newborn baby

Virtual Birth Support: Podcast Episode #95

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Birth, Doulas, Pregnancy / Alyssa Veneklase / birth doula, birth story, birth support, childbirth, gold coast doulas, hospital birth, postpartum doulas, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast

Sam & Justin recently had their baby boy, Judah, in the hospital in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. They describe their experience in the hospital as well as how beneficial birth doula support was throughout pregnancy and then during labor and delivery, even though support was virtual instead of in-person. You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Hi, welcomes to the Ask the Doulas Podcast. I am Alyssa Veneklase, co-owner of Gold Coast, and today I’m talking to Samantha and Justin, who recently had a baby at a hospital in this midst of this Coronavirus pandemic. We’re going to talk to you about what that was like. Gold Coast is not attending births after Governor Whitmer’s declaration that we have to stay at home, and we don’t know when the order will be lifted. So we kind of just wanted to get a sense of what it was like for you two to go through this whole process. How far along were you when you hired us?

Samantha: Pretty early when we found out. We knew when we were trying to get pregnant that having a doula was something that was really important to us, as well as a midwife and just trying to go that more natural route. So the minute we found out we were pregnant, it was kind of getting things in plan. So I would say after the first trimester after we kind of told everybody.

Alyssa: So you hired pretty early, and that was before all this crazy virus stuff happened. And you worked with Kristin and Ashley as your birth doula team. Even before all this stuff happened, what did support look like through the majority of your pregnancy?

Samantha: It was wonderful. Being a first time mom, obviously, you have a ton of questions, and I just didn’t want to be the person to be blowing up my midwife all the time, plus it’s hard to get ahold of them. Our midwife was through Spectrum, so obviously you can’t just pick up the phone and call her. It’s not as easy. So being able to have a team of doulas that, any question I had from — I had artisan cheese one day and freaked out thinking I did something wrong. So to be able to text them things like that and just have that reassurance all the time was awesome, as well as after every appointment, they wanted updates on what’s going on with baby, so it was just that extra support and knowing that they’re there no matter how stupid the question was.

Alyssa: Well, and as a first time mom, I think we feel like all of our questions are stupid. Oh, I hear the baby! Hi, Judah! So, yeah, obviously, because of this, we’re on speakerphone, and they’re at home and I’m at my home because nobody can go into work. You guys are quarantined at home with the baby, which is probably kind of a blessing in disguise, maybe. You can actually kind of hunker down and just focus on bonding and feeding and all these great things without visitors. But like you said, Grandma comes over and she can’t see the baby! That’s so hard.

Justin: It’s been a blessing for dads, I think, especially because I would have had to go back to work today. I am working, but it’s from home and it’s slower, and I’ve got some time to help support Sam and build my relationship with Judah, too, so it’s kind of a blessing in disguise for — I mean, it sucks, but it’s been nice.

Samantha: And as a new mom, you’re hunkered down. I mean, I was planning on not leaving my house for a month, anyway, so it’s kind of nice, especially during this quarantine time, because you’re quarantined anyway with a newborn, so it gives you something to do and keep occupied with.

Alyssa: Right. Well, and focus on the positive, right? Like, there’s so many negatives that we can be focusing on, but you’re stuck at home with a newborn baby. Boohoo, right? This is what you’ve been looking forward to for nine months!

Samantha: Exactly, exactly.

Alyssa: So your support during pregnancy really would have been the same, Coronavirus or not, because it’s a lot of text and phone calls and emails, right? It’s all virtual, anyway?

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah, that wouldn’t have changed, and like I said, they were available pretty much 24/7, so it was just nice to always have them in our back pocket when we needed them.

Alyssa: Right. Tell me about the labor, then. What happened when you were at home, and how did that support, the actual virtual support after finding out that your doulas can’t support you in person, how did virtual support look then once labor began?

Samantha: So we came up with a plan that we would utilize anything that we needed. If we needed to do a video chat, we had my laptop ready to go to bring to the hospital. But once labor started, we kind of — before I went into labor, we talked over, you know, what are the signs, when we should contact them, how long I wanted to labor at home; all that stuff that we would have done anyway if it was just normal circumstances. So when I went into labor, it was the middle of the night, of course, and we texted both of them and ended up calling Kristin. She was the one who answered, and we told her how far apart the contractions were. She could hear, you know, how I sounded and could tell that they were ramping up. You know, you can just — moms — everybody says moms have the telltale sign of when contractions aren’t a joke anymore. So, yeah, she said, yep, sounds like you’re really getting in the swing of labor. She told me to get something to eat before I went to the hospital and kind of gave us some tips before we — as Justin was packing the bag and getting our bags in the car, some tips I could do before we headed out the door. And so we did that and then headed to the hospital, and from the moment we got there in triage, I had a couple — well, of course, birth is always unexpected, but I had a couple things come up that I wasn’t expecting to happen. So from the moment we were in triage, we were in constant contact with Kristin and Ashley, whether it was me or — it was actually mostly Justin.

Justin: Yeah. I actually took — like, I would step out of the room a few times just to call her. There was just a couple moments there when we were down in triage where she was uncomfortable, and the room is a little small. It was hard to get into that calm state of mind that we were looking for. So without trying to stress Sam out, I stepped out of the room and just called Kristin. I was, like, hey, you know, what are some things I could try to, you know, bring her back into this calm state of mind that we’ve been working on forever. It was great. She gave us some positions to try, some things to talk to the nurses about. Like, she knew there was a tub down in the triage area, so she said to go ask them to use the tub. So it was good to have them just there — just any questions we had, just to call real quick.

Samantha: Yeah. And we had a couple unexpected things, because I wanted to labor naturally, but we had some issues. I had a LEEP procedure a couple months ago. Well, not a couple months ago; about a year ago, but that caused some scar tissue that made my labor really difficult. So we had to have the conversation of having an epidural because my labor was so erratic and my body was under a lot of stress. So that decision we talked over with the doulas. And then having Pitocin brought in, which was also something that was on our “absolute no” list, but it was nice to be able to call Kristin. Spectrum was wonderful, too. I mean, the nurses and midwives were great as far as giving us all the information we needed and then giving us time to talk it over. But having Kristin there to be able to call and say, here’s what they’re telling us, here’s what we’re thinking — to have that reassurance from them was huge, especially because our birth plan changed so much, and it was upsetting for me, especially.

Alyssa: Right. That’s hard when we get into this mindset of, like, here’s my plan and I’m going to stick to it, and baby or your body says otherwise. To have an expert to ask those questions and give feedback that’s not — and I think that’s one thing a lot of people thing, that doulas are there to tell you what to do. It’s more about asking you the right questions so you can figure out what’s right for you.

Justin: Just having that — just having that information so that we can make our own decision. Just having them giving us all the proper information we knew everything that was at stake and we could make a better, informed decision. It was a huge help.

Alyssa: Right. Knowledge is power in this instance, for sure.

Samantha: Yeah, and even the positions. Once I did get the epidural and Pitocin, we still wanted to do a really low dose of Pitocin to try to have my body naturally ramp up contractions, so Ashley and Kristin sent us a bunch of pictures of positions we could try. They were always available for Facetiming and virtual, as well, but we never needed to. But to have that in the back pocket was comforting, as well, that if we needed to virtually see them face to face, knowing that we could do that was very comforting for me, especially.

Alyssa: So once you actually moved from triage to the labor and delivery room, you said you didn’t actually have to use Facetime or anything. Was it more of you, Justin, were in contact with them because Sam was in active labor?

Justin: Yeah. It was a lot of text messages and a few phone calls. If it was something we wanted to all talk out together, we’d call, or if it was just a quick question, I’d just shoot them a message real quick.

Samantha: And I definitely think if I didn’t need — if I wouldn’t have had the epidural, we definitely would have utilized Ashley and utilized some of our HypnoBirthing techniques to help me get through labor and probably would have used virtual face to face more, but just because things moved so fast as far as me needing some intervention, it again changed our plan as far as utilizing the doulas a little bit differently. But, yeah, it was constant contact throughout the whole labor process, and it was actually nice after I did get the epidural. I was able to then talk to them and tell them what’s going on and what kind of positions I can try and different things like that. So the plan changed a little bit, but staying in constant contact with them didn’t. It was pretty consistent throughout the whole labor process.

Alyssa: And what about when you got to the point where you were ready to push? Was there anything they could do to support you during that time?

Samantha: Well, we planned on having them Facetime for that, but my pushing went very quickly. I only pushed for about 30 minutes, and we didn’t even — when we started, it was — we texted them saying, oh, they want us to do some practice pushes, and 30 minutes later, we were messaging them saying, well, baby’s here! So, yeah, we had the whole plan set up for them to help — especially because I had an epidural, they were really going to help me try to breathe baby down, which is what we ended up doing, but to have them face to face so they could see what was going on. But it just ended up happening so fast that we weren’t able to do that. But after baby came, we were in contact with them, telling them his birth weight and all that stuff, and once we got up to the room, letting them know how latching was going as far as breastfeeding. So it was just the best experience possible, especially because I was so devastated, you know, being nine months pregnant and all this emotional — that’s emotional in itself, and then to find out your birth plan is completely blown to smithereens…

Justin: Two weeks before we even go to the hospital.

Samantha: Yeah, two weeks before the hospital. It was just terrifying, but to have them there in that virtual sense was everything because it would have been a very different experience if we weren’t able to have them at all, that’s for sure.

Alyssa: So let’s say a couple just found out they’re pregnant, and they knew they wanted a doula, like you, but then they have this worry. They’re going to do the hospital birth; they want a doula, but the doula may or may not be able to be there. What would you say to a family who’s kind of on the fence about hiring a doula because of the current situation?

Samantha: I would say, hire. Hire a doula because, yeah, the situation has changed, but I think even more in this time, you need that extra support more than ever, especially because, in my circumstance, my midwife wasn’t even able to be there. I had a totally different team because of the way they split up her team, so not only is your birth plan changed, but then my midwife who I’ve been seeing for the last nine months wasn’t able to be there. So just to have that team, that constant contact, still stay the same even though they’re not there in person, was just a huge comfort and relief for me. And especially for Justin.

Justin: I was going to say, for the fathers-to-be out there, I think it’s even more important for them. We went through a lot of the classes and stuff, and we had good knowledge going in, but you get in the heat of the situation, and you know, her surges and contractions were starting to really hurt her, and I didn’t know what to do in that situation. So we had this whole plan, and I was doing my best to stick to this plan, and when you get thrown that curve ball, having someone to turn to and just get that reassurance. I might have made the right decision in that situation, but just to have them say, “Yeah, you did,” or, you know, this is — “Yeah, you did do a good job there. This is what’s going to happen. Here’s the outcome.” Just having that extra sense of security in this very unsecure time is a huge benefit. Even though they’re not there, it was almost like they were, and it was very helpful, especially for the dads that sometimes might feel a little lost.

Alyssa: Right, which usually, most of them, I feel like, they do probably feel a little bit lost.

Justin: Especially the first time.

Samantha: Yeah, and it takes the pressure off, too, you know, just because I’m telling him one thing, and he’s trying to say, you know, it’s going to be okay, but for him to then reach out to the doulas and say, you know, here’s what’s going on, and for them to not only give me reassurance but him was a game changer, for sure.

Alyssa: And like you said, you’ve built a rapport with them throughout your pregnancy. I didn’t know that your midwife couldn’t be there either! So without your doulas, you would have not had your midwife either, and you would have literally been in a hospital with a bunch of nurses who you’ve never met, and that was it.

Justin: Right. Exactly.

Samantha: And thankfully, we had an amazing team. Our nurses and midwives that we ended up getting were amazing. But also, you’re going — it’s your first time. You’re laboring. It’s new. And then you have a whole bunch of strangers, so you’re throwing that mix in it. So having the doulas there that we’ve had throughout the whole pregnancy, virtually, even though they couldn’t be there, was such a comfort because it just — you had somebody to turn to that you know.

Justin: One more thing, too, is the hospital — I don’t know about other hospitals in the area, but Spectrum — it was like a fortress. It was so clean and locked down in there. We kind of forgot this whole thing we even going on until we left. I mean, I went down in the cafeteria a few times, and every time I went down there, a whole different section was being completely pulled out and cleaned. There was no visitors walking around. There was no one walking around. I mean, it really did feel like a fortress. Even getting into the building, we had to go through a couple security checkpoints, so if anyone was worried about the hospital part of it, I think that especially Spectrum, that I know of, I think they’re doing a very good job of keeping everything separated, and the sections of the hospital that need to be cleaned and all that.

Alyssa: That’s a good point. For those who maybe have that as a main point of fear for them, delivering in the hospital, they’re doing everything right. I mean, they obviously want to keep their patients safe and healthy. It’s got to be weird to walk through that hospital and hardly see anybody because there’s no visitors.

Samantha: It was weird pulling up because they have the whole security detail, and it was, like, “Why are you here? What’s going on?” It was very weird, but like Justin said, it ended up — I almost was sad to leave, just because you’re in this clean, sterile bubble, and like I said, we almost forgot about this whole Corona thing because you’re in — you are — you end up being in the bliss of having your baby, even though it’s such a scary time. But having — you know, right after he was born, we talked with Ashley and Kristin, and then it was just kind of that blissful — we went up to the room, and they’re doing a very good job. Obviously, things change, but I think they have it pretty locked down.

Alyssa: That’s great.

Justin: They’re definitely out in front of it.

Alyssa: So then you guys go home, and usually, they do a postpartum visit, but I’m assuming they did that virtually, as well.

Samantha: Yes.

Alyssa: Did you have that already?

Samantha: We did. From the moment we got home, too, we were in constant contact with them, from them asking how he was sleeping. I had a couple questions just as far as my recovery and what I could do for comfort as far as that goes, just because as a new mom, you just don’t really expect the discomfort. I kept thinking, you know, I didn’t have stitches or anything like that, so I thought, oh, I’m going to be good, but you don’t realize what you’ve put your body through. So it was just nice to have them there so I could say, I’m feeling — you know, what can I do about this pressure that I’m feeling? I’m having some pain and discomfort here. To have that support on the postpartum aspect, because, you know, this whole time leading up to the birth, you’re thinking pregnancy and delivery and labor and all that, but postpartum support is also huge, and they really, really helped with that, giving me ideas and tips of helping my milk supply come in. It was just — they’ve been wonderful. And we just had our virtual visit with them face to face, and that was great to be able to see them. They could see the baby. And then to tell them the birth story, since they weren’t there — I mean, they were there, but they weren’t.

Alyssa: They got bits and pieces but finally got to hear the whole thing. That’s great. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to add or that you think other parents should know?

Samantha: I just think if you’re on the fence, I mean, nothing — I had this whole — I thought I planned for even the most unexpected in pregnancy, and I definitely didn’t because pregnancy can change in an instant. But I think that’s why even more now in these times to have that extra support and to have a doula because we plan on having another child, and I’ve already said to them — I said, well, hopefully you guys will be there in person for our next baby! But I couldn’t imagine going through labor and birth and even through pregnancy and postpartum without having a doula and support, and I think Justin feels the same way.

Justin: Absolutely.

Samantha: It’s like having your best friends to be able to talk to, and it’s such a comfort, especially —

Justin: But a best friend who’s also very knowledgeable!

Alyssa: Your best friend who’s knowledgeable and judgment-free and can give you all the best support.

Samantha: Yeah. And especially because my birth plan changed so much in the sense of having to have interventions, which I didn’t think I was going to, so that was even more unexpected, and to be able to — you know, you’re in the rush of the moment, and I was really upset, and, you know, you get down on yourself as a new mom thinking you’re failing in some aspect. To be able to have them — obviously, Justin can sit there and tell me all day that I’m doing the right thing, but to have somebody else who’s not only gone through that experience but seen other women and giving me advice and telling me what I’m doing and the decisions I’m making are right for me and my baby was such a relief and such a comfort because it’s such an emotional time, and when things aren’t going already as planned, and then you throw in more wrenches into the mix, it can overwhelming. So to have them as support was just everything to me.

Alyssa: Thank you so much for sharing! I wish that I could see little Judah, too.

Samantha: I know! I know.

Alyssa: It’s really hard! But, yeah, focus on bonding with that little guy. How’s breastfeeding and everything going?

Samantha: Breastfeeding is going good. We’ve had to supplement a little just because he’s such a peanut, but, again, they’ve helped with that, as well, just because that can be hard as a mom. You know, you think, oh, breastfeeding is going to be this simple thing, and it’s hard. Being able to talk it over with people — they’ve given me some great articles, and I had a virtual meetup with some new moms that Kristin suggested, a team that I should join in on, and that was really helpful. I got some great tips from that, and to not only see new moms who delivered around the same time as I had, and that was all virtual and really cool to be able to hear from them. You know, they might not be going through the same issues as I am, but to hear they’re also having questions and not knowing what to do was really reassuring because you can get stuck in this loop of, why is this not working for me? What am I doing wrong? Why is it so easy for everybody else? And you don’t realize other moms have, you know, if not the same issues, then different issues. It’s all different for each person.

Alyssa: Yeah. It’s not easy for everybody else. It just seems like it is.

Samantha: It does, and it’s easy to get down on yourself and think, oh, you know, woe is me, why is it not working for me? But to be able to have not only doulas but then give me other resources to be able to reach out to was also great, as well.

Alyssa: That’s awesome. Thank you for taking the time to share your story!

Samantha: Of course! Thank you

Virtual Birth Support: Podcast Episode #95 Read More »

Alyssa Veneklase and Kristin Revere sit in an office while podcasting together

Coronavirus Update on Doulas: Podcast Episode #94

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Birth, Doulas, Pregnancy / Alyssa Veneklase / birth doula, birth support, breastfeeding, breastfeeding consultant, childbirth classes, childbirth education, gold coast doulas, lactation, lactation consultant, newborn care, postpartum doulas, pregnancy podcast, sleep deprivation, sleeping and babies, sleeping and newborns

Kristin and Alyssa, Co-Owners of Gold Coast Doulas, give an update on doulas and the coronavirus. How is this affecting birth doulas in the hospital and postpartum doulas in the home? They also talk about virtual classes such as Mama Natural Online to help new parents stay prepared while social distancing. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes and SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Welcome to Ask the Doulas. You are here with Alyssa and Kristin, and today we’re going to talk a little bit about the coronavirus. I’m going to let Kristin do most of the talking just to kind of update our friends and clients on the current status.

Kristin: Yes! So we are happy to share the protocol within Gold Coast on how we are keeping our doula team, our childbirth educators, and our clients healthy. We are recording this on March 17th, so things are changing daily, and by the time you listen to this, the information that we’re giving you may be a bit different. But we did want to respond quickly and have notified all of our clients about our safety protocols. With birth doula clients, we are doing all our prenatal, our free consultations, and our postpartum meetings virtually. So our clients now know that they are talking to teams by phone or Zoom meetings or Facetime, whatever the preferred method is. We’re still giving you that same time and attention; just keeping you safe and healthy during this critical time.

We had been working with area hospital administrators and with the governor’s office to make sure that we were able to support our clients in person, and again, this may change by the time you’re listening to this, but we had a day yesterday where we were told birth doulas would not be able to support in the hospital. So we contacted all of our clients and made a plan to support in the home before and support virtually in the hospital. Through work with the governor’s office and area administrators, we were able to obtain entry into area hospitals. So starting today, that is not an issue. With the executive order from the governor’s office, a partner and a doula are allowed to admit into area hospitals. There will be a health screening, and we’re going through credentialing processes with every hospital having different requirements, but we plan to support our clients. This is as of today, and again, if the outbreak continues, we may need to rely on virtual support. Because Gold Coast has a big team of birth doulas, we will monitor symptoms of coronavirus and the flu, as we have always done, to assure that a healthy doula will be attending the birth. We’ll be doing the best we can to isolate our team. We’re staying home with our families. We’re not going out into the public unless we need to get provisions. Going from there to ensure that we’re able to support our clients during this time when they need the emotional and physical support of doulas now more than any time.

Alyssa, I know that in postpartum support, we have made some accommodations as well, and part of that is some of our clients had contracts that were about to expire, and we’ve talked to them about delaying support, and with our postpartum doulas, who our clients want us in the home, we are of course making sure that the doulas are healthy. We’re using sanitization methods. If we’re doing cleaning, we’re cleaning doorknobs and handles at our clients’ homes. We’re coming in with clean clothing, taking our shoes off, as we always do, and using whatever precautions our clients want us to in their home with caring for baby and caring for the mother. And, again, with our postpartum doula team, we have a lot of doulas. So if a doula has any symptoms of coronavirus or the flu or even a cold, we are sending in a healthy doula to replace the scheduled doula. Do you have anything to add to that?

Alyssa: No. I mean, nothing’s really changed in that regard. All of our clients get that same kind of care. It’s just extra — I guess maybe an extra added step at this point.

Kristin: And as a sleep expert, part of what we do as postpartum doulas, both daytime and overnight, is allow our clients to rest. Now, with your sleep certification, I know you focus on newborns and toddlers and so on, but let’s talk a bit about the importance during this time to keep your immune system strong and getting sleep for families.

Alyssa: Yeah, the problem with sleep deprivation is your immune system starts to decline, and more than ever right now, it’s important to keep your immune systems healthy. So that means still going outside and getting fresh air, getting exercise. But you also need sleep. And with a newborn and/or a toddler at home, that can really be trying. So the beauty of my sleep consultations is that I don’t need to do it in person. We can do it via phone and text. So if that is an issue, you can call me still for that. But regardless, you just have to focus on sleep. You have to get your required amount of sleep, and your kids need to be going to bed on time. I know this feels like a big vacation for them, but you need to have a set bedtime and awake time. I mean, if we’re going to be in this situation for three to six weeks, they are going to become sleep deprived. They are going to become little monsters. It’s going to make your days even harder, but then again their immune systems could start to decline.

Kristin: Right. And, again, we do offer sibling care, so we can help with snacks around the house, and we have noticed that a lot of West Michigan families tend to have family support of grandparents or other family members, and now with some of the guidelines for keeping the elderly safe and away from children, I know my kids are being distanced from my parents due to my father’s heart condition and so on. And so we can come in when you are relying on your family right now and take some of that burden off of you and your partner.

Alyssa: I have canceled all family functions. A birthday party, a sleepover. You know, my parents called and offered to help, and “thanks, but no thanks.” We’re stuck at home anyway. There’s nowhere I can go, nothing I can do. So, yeah, we’re just kind of laying low at the house.

Kristin: Yeah. And so people are obviously isolating, canceling things, and we’re able to — we do offer bedrest support, so we are able to do virtual bedrest support if that is something that a client is interested in. Or, again, support in the home with childbirth education. We can do mini classes virtually or in home and provide sibling care for our clients who are on bedrest and need to feed their other children, especially now that daycares are closing and schools are closed at least through April 10th, if not longer. And so we’re adapting as best we can and keeping our team safe. For clients who are not part of our current childbirth series that has now gone virtual, our Hypnobirthing class started out in person, and due to the coronavirus, we’ve turned that into an online class with our instructor. But we are an affiliate for Mama Natural, so we wanted to talk about that as an option for clients who are not able to take a hospital childbirth class or take Hypnobirthing or a different child preparation method. You can go onto our website and sign up for our online affiliate program through Mama Natural and take the class online. We’ve gone through the class. I personally went through the entire curriculum, and my clients have used it and have had success, so that is a great option during this time when we need to isolate and be at home and still want to prepare our clients and have our clients feel like they’re ready for this birth.

Alyssa: And Kelly Emery, our lactation consultant, also offers an online pumping class and a breastfeeding class.

Kristin: Perfect! So there are some things you can do, and again, things are ever changing, but as of right now, all of the area hospitals are limiting visitors to one support person, so your partner or family member and a doula who is credentialed in area hospitals. So in the postpartum units, you are not able to have siblings visit or family at this time. Everything is limited to protect the health workers and the patients. So it is good to have these conversations with family members. I always tell my birth clients at prenatals that now is the time to express whether or not you want visitors in your birth space, and now knowing some of these plans have changed, if you have family members flying in, you may want to delay, or if you have older family members or immune-compromised caregivers, then now is the time to have these discussions rather than having disappointment at your due date if you’re due this spring.

Alyssa: Yeah. They won’t even be able to come in, and probably family members can’t even fly in at this point. We’re getting close to that.

Kristin: Yes. Domestic travel is limited and could be delayed indefinitely. So we’re just taking things day by day. But we want you to remain calm and positive about this and go with the flow, so try not to take in too much negative media and use this time to focus on connecting with your baby. And if you have other children, reach out to us if we can help. We’re here for you.

Alyssa: I think it reiterates the importance of an agency like Gold Coast Doulas being professional and certified and insured and, like you said, credentialed so that we can get into the hospitals. The hospitals trust us. They have a list of our certified doulas’ names. They might ask for a federal ID number. They might ask for certification; proof of certification. These are all really important things to consider when hiring a doula anytime, but especially right now.

Kristin: Yes! Stay well, everyone !

Coronavirus Update on Doulas: Podcast Episode #94 Read More »

The Swaddelini Swaddle: Podcast Episode #93

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Sleep / Alyssa Veneklase / babies, breastfeeding, gold coast doulas, infant care specialist, newborn care, newborn sleep, pregnancy podcast, safe sleep, sleep tips, sleeping and newborns

Liz Hilton, founder of Swaddelini, tells us about the unique process she uses to create her amazing swaddle and why her swaddle is different. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin.

Alyssa: And I am Alyssa.

Kristin: And we’re here today with Liz Hilton, who happens to be a birth and postpartum client of ours. She has an amazing product to talk about. Tell us about your swaddles and where you came up with the idea and more about how we can put it into action!

Liz: Well, first, thank you so much for having me on your talk. My product in Swaddelini. It’s inspired by my firstborn son, Thomas, who was a little Houdini. Veritable little Houdini; got out of all his swaddles and would constantly wake up from the Moro reflex. I’m really excited about my next baby that I’m going to be having a couple weeks here because now I’m equipped with a swaddle that is easy to use and protects against the Moro reflex and is completely kick-proof and escape-proof.

Kristin: You’ll have your own baby model!

Liz: I know! I’ll have my own little cute baby model! My Instagram Swaddelini is going to blow up with pictures of my new baby. But yeah, what’s different about it is that typically swaddles involves a lot of wrapping or cumbersome closure systems like zippers, Velcro, or God forbid, snaps. So mine just goes on and off like a sock, and I’ve incorporated some light compression therapy into the chest area to give the sensation of a hug all night long. So I’ve actually trademarked that as Hug Technology.

Kristin: Love it!

Liz: And the individual tubes help keep the arms down for the Moro reflex. It encourages that sleep safe position of being on the back and arms at the sides. And then when you need to change the diaper, there’s an easy access diaper flap so you can change the diaper without having to take the swaddle on and off.

Kristin: That’s such a pain to remove the swaddle and wake the baby!

Liz: Yeah! And it’s also adaptable, so with any baby product, you want it to adapt because all babies are different. Every baby is different. Every mom is different. So some babies like their arms out. Now, part of the thinking behind that is so they can self-soothe when they do wake up from the Moro reflex. The idea with the Swaddelini is that that won’t happen as often because their arms are encouraged to be down. But if your baby insists on having their arms out, you can just leave their arms out. You’re still going to get that Hug Technology benefit. Probably my favorite thing is that this swaddle is easy to put on, but also doesn’t restrict motion. That’s one thing that doctors have been telling moms is, you know, don’t swaddle your baby. It will cause hip dysplasia. And that’s just because some swaddles, there’s no stopping point when you’re wrapping them or pulling the Velcro. It’s very easy to do it too tight. Whereas with this, it’s a four-way stretch knit. It’s soft. It’s stretchy. And there’s no risk in that. And even though the baby feels hugged all over, they have freedom of movement. So if, for example, you’re breastfeeding, the baby can, while wearing the swaddle, can kneed your breast but can’t scratch. Same when they’re sleeping; they can touch their face, but not scratch it. So that’s another benefit.

Kristin: And you have different sizes, so as they grow bigger, their swaddle size is based on how many pounds the baby is?

Liz: I’ve done it that way. I’ve said the small is good for 6-12 pounds and the large is 12-18 pounds. The reason I did the larger one is just because there’s that transition where your baby’s kind of rolling over their side, and you’re, like oh, my God. Is it going to happen? Are they going to roll over? Am I going to wake up and my baby’s on their front? You have all these fears. What I say is with the larger one — or even with the smaller one, if your baby is toying with rolling over sooner before they’re out of the smaller size, just take one arm and leave it out. And then one they’re rolling over a lot during the day, you can take both arms out. If your baby likes to sleep with their feet out, leave the feet out. My niece slept in her large swaddle between month 8 and 11 until she was ready to get out. She was smaller, though. She was a smaller baby, so that’s why she went so long. But she just didn’t want to leave it, but it was a nice transition.

Alyssa: And they’re made out of different things. I’m very curious what the process is and how you make them, too. We talked a little bit about it on the phone, but I thought it was very cool how you make these.

Liz: Yeah. I have two very distinct designs. The first one I did, I made out of just a bunch of synthetic fibers that I’ve used for compression garments that I’ve made for kids with, like, CP or lymphedema. And so that helps with the light compression at the chest. So that part is the same. For the rest of it, it’s a moisture-wicking nylon-polyester blend. It feels very lightweight, but it’s actually very cozy and very soft. You can feel that.

Alyssa: So soft!

Liz: Yes! But at the end of the day, it is a synthetic fiber, right? I learned very quickly that some moms like natural fibers. So after much research, I found a supplier of bamboo, and they make this bamboo in a mechanical process versus chemical. You’ve seen a lot of maybe bamboo-rayon products. This is not that. This is just a natural bamboo made in a nonchemical process, and I pair it with a really exciting new fiber. I’m actually the first in the industry to license this. It’s called 37.5 because what it does is it regulates your body temperature to put it at a perfect 37.5 degrees Celsius. So that is why the bamboo swaddles are a little cooler to the touch.

Alyssa: So adult swaddles will be next.

Liz: Actually, if you go on my website to the About section and watch my videos, I have my husband in an adult swaddle. Yeah! I just made one for a marketing thing, and then I told my husband, hey, will you get in this so I can do a video on YouTube? And he was, like, you’re going to put it on YouTube? No, I’m not doing this! And I’m like, um, I had your baby.

Alyssa: I’m asking this one thing!

Liz: Yeah. So there’s now a video of him in an adult swaddle!

Alyssa: It sounds really cozy, actually. I think I would wear one. I love that it’s easy. Can you explain putting it on and how it goes on?

Liz: You basically just scrunch it up like a sock, and then you go in feet first and you get the Hug Technology over the butt area, and then you have it over the chest. And then you go through the easy access diaper flap. So stick your arm through that opening at the bottom, and then go through one of the arm tubes and then grab the hand. Put that hand in yours, and just slide it down so that the arm is in the tube. And so now their arm can move around, but it just encourages the arm to stay down at the side. And then you just do that on the other side. So these arm tubes are very, very stretchy, and their hands are absolutely free to move around. And then the top naturally curls the opposite direction from their face. But I also had this product tested at world-class third-party laboratories, where they do a suffocation hazard test. They literally roll my product up in a ball, put it over a fake infant face, and they measure the CO2, and mine has passed every time.

Alyssa: That was my question. You know, you walk in, and it’s like this.

Liz: That is absolutely fine, and if you wanted to do a suffocation hazard test on any product that you buy, what you do is roll it up and put it against your face and breathe. With the design, though, it does naturally curl away from the face. So if you put your baby to sleep like this, they wake up like this.

Alyssa: And then demonstrate poopy diaper time when you don’t want to wake the baby.

Liz: We’ve got this flap here, and again, it’s very, very stretchy.

Kristin: As a doula, I love that. It’s so easy.

Alyssa: And do you recommend just like this doll has, like a onesie underneath this? That’s all you need?

Liz: Definitely.

Alyssa: The right temperature?

Liz: Even just a diaper and socks is fine. I get that question a lot. It’s really what you’re comfortable with, what your baby’s comfortable with. If they’re really tiny and maybe they’re sliding, if their arms are so small they’re sliding out, you can put a onesie, like the sleeves on it, and that friction between the fabric will keep it on. So then you get access to the diaper. You do the diaper. And then you can put it right back on, and you don’t have to take it off. And then taking it off also is very easy because you just pull it down. It’s actually easier with a real baby. You can do it all in one motion. I’ve gotten that a lot where moms say, oh, I didn’t know it was going to be this easy. That’s always good!

Kristin: And you have different designs. You brought some samples with you. There’s a fun funky orange and pink and…

Liz: It’s interesting you say that because the design is pretty much the same. The only difference is the colors and the fibers. The blue, pink, orange, and gray here are all in the moisture-wicking synthetic fibers, and these more neutral colors, this neural white-pearl and this cloud-gray are the bamboo. The best-selling ones are the grays, the grays in both the synthetic and the bamboo, and then orange. Everyone loves neutrals. The way this is made is a really interesting process. One of the benefits of the Swaddelini is that it’s seamless, and it’s seamless because it’s actually manufactured in one piece, in one process, using 3D knitting. Kind of like the Nike Flyknit shoes. It’s the same technology, and I have a machine that knits all of these in my garage. I make them all myself. I don’t have some manufacturer in China that I outsource this too. So it’s very, very local. And it’s actually my life’s work. I’ve been a 3D knit programmer for over ten years now and working primarily in technical knitting, knitting solutions for office furniture and automotive and aerospace and stuff like that. But when I had my first baby two and a half years ago, I had an idea to use that same process to solve my swaddling problem. That became Swaddelini.

Alyssa: That’s amazing! You said there’s a couple tiny stitches you have to do yourself at the very end?

Liz: At the very top because it’s all made with this one end of yard. At the very top, you have to pull it through a loop and then that’s the final thing that I do. And I sew on these cute little tags with washing information and stuff like that.

Alyssa: Yeah, what is the washing information?

Liz: For the synthetic fiber, I recommend cold. It will shrink up a bit, but honestly, if that happens to you, let me know. I can work something out with you because I don’t want someone to get it and have it shrink. I recommend that, and then air drying it is fine. But for the bamboo ones, I actually prewash them in a natural, unscented detergent, so they’re already preshrunk. They won’t shrink anymore. You can wash and dry them in heat, but I still recommend cold just for longevity.

Alyssa: Things look better. I wash all my stuff in cold. They just last so much longer.

Kristin: Thanks, Liz! We appreciate you coming in! How do people order or find you?

Alyssa: Well, if you’re a Gold Coast client, you can get a discount. But for everyone else, what’s the best way to order these?

Liz: On my website, but if you want to learn more about my product before you buy it, I highly recommend going on my Instagram, @swaddelini, because I have a lot moms on there that have shared their videos of how they use it because every mom might use my product differently.

Kristin: It’s great for the visual learners.

Alyssa: I’m going to add this to my newborn class repertoire because I think some people get overwhelmed with the old-fashioned swaddle, and like you said, if you have a really strong baby, they’re popping out of this thing. So this is a great option, and they’re super cute!

Kristin: We will definitely check in with you after, since you’re a client of ours, and we can see how it’s working with your own baby and also hear your birth story. We love hearing personal stories!

Liz: Well, I’m really excited to have doula support this time because I didn’t last time, and I definitely regret it.

Alyssa: Yeah, we can have you back in to talk about that and how it was with doulas.

Liz: That would be awesome!

The Swaddelini Swaddle: Podcast Episode #93 Read More »

Birth Photography: Podcast Episode #92

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Birth, Pregnancy / Alyssa Veneklase / babies, birth doula, birth photography, gold coast doulas, labor and delivery, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast

Photographers Kris and Autumn of The People Picture Company answer questions about birth photography, what a photographer actually does in the delivery room and how the process works for hiring a photographer and talking about birth plans. You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Welcome to the Ask the Doulas podcast. I am Alyssa Veneklase.

Kristin: And I’m Kristin Revere.

Alyssa: We are co-owners of Gold Coast, and we are here today with Autumn and Kris from The People Picture Company. We wanted to bring you in because you do a lot of birth photography and a lot of our clients use you, but I know a lot of people are cautious or maybe don’t understand quite what the role of a photographer is in the delivery room, and I think it might be weird for people to say, you know, there’s going to be this stranger with a camera photographing my private parts. Like, I don’t know this person! Can you ease people’s fears and maybe tell us what the whole process looks like?

Kris: Of course! It all starts with a prenatal consult. So this is where we get together and discuss your birth plan and what you want your birthing experience to look like. This helps give us an idea; like, okay, are you doing a hospital birth or a home birth or a birthing center? All of these things kind of factor into it. We exchange phone numbers and all the information there, too, and then pick packages. But it’s really a time for us to get together and to get to know each other because it is a very personal, private, intimate experience, and we’re going to be there with you, so we want to be able to know you and have you be comfortable with us.

Kristin: It’s almost like when you do weddings and you have a shot list. In your prenatal, I’m sure you go over, okay, this is what’s acceptable, and this is what I don’t want.

Kris: Exactly. We also go through and we show off some of the other births that we’ve done that the mothers have completely agreed that it is okay for us to show. We have a couple of photos on our website, if you go into Maternity and Birth. But when we go into a consult, you get to see a little bit more in depth. These are ones that are, like, you know, actually during the birth experience. So sometimes there’s nudity because you might get really hot when you’re giving birth to your child. Sometimes people want that crowning photo. I’m not going to put that online, but if you want to see what that looks like or a photo of your placenta where your baby lived for a while, then I can show you those during the consult so you get more of an idea and a feel of what you can expect from your birth photos.

Alyssa: So it’s kind of like, if I were to say I want birth photos, but I don’t want any shots of boobs; I don’t want any shots of vaginas; I don’t want a butt. Then you would know that going in, saying, okay, we need to crop this out or I’m not going to…

Kris: Not going to photograph it. If you want the photos of your child coming into this world but you don’t want that crowning photo, I don’t have to be right where the doctors are. We can be right up by your shoulder. In fact, that’s how it was with my photos. I don’t have any crowning photos of my son coming out, but I have some great photos from over my shoulder, and you can see him just emerging into the world. It’s so magical because you can ever see everyone that’s in the room and my husband and my doctors and everyone, and it’s just so magical. Especially because most of that, I had my eyes shut, and one of my friends was, like, no, open your eyes. Open your eyes! You have to see this moment!

Autumn: I think a part of it, too, is during the consult, you are getting comfortable with each other, and there’s a moment where you kind of think past the nudity, you know? We’re basically capturing the emotional experience between you, your baby, your family. That is something that is bigger than the nudity sometimes.

Alyssa: Right!

Kristin: And I love that you’ve also supported surgical births and shown the beauty of that as they’re getting prepped to go into the operating room and so on. Some of those pictures are amazing.

Kris: Yeah! With the Cesarean births, we’re not allowed in the operating room for those, but we are allowed in the prepping areas and as you’re walking down the hallway or being wheeled into the operating room, we can do all of that and we can do the couple of hours after the birth, as well. It’s just that for those we’re not actively allowed in those rooms for the surgical process.

Kristin: I’ve loved attending births with The People Picture Company because you really do capture the emotions of the couple and the intimate experience that they have, as well as, obviously, meeting their new baby or babies for the first time and really, you have a way. That’s why we have you photograph our team and a lot of the events we do. You really capture that moment so perfectly and the beauty of birth, the raw and realness of all of it.

Autumn: And no birth is the same, no two births.

Kris: No. But they’re all emotional. I cry at every one.

Kristin: For sure. They are. It’s an honor to be in someone’s birth space. I don’t take that lightly as a doula.

Alyssa: So you’re essentially on call; that’s why you exchange numbers. So how does that work from your client’s end? You exchange phone numbers, and then when the due date approaches, you just kind of — they know that your phone’s going to be on next to the bed all night?

Kris: Yep. My phone is on next to my bed all night. It is turned up as loud as it possibly can be, and in case I’m asleep, my husband is a very light sleeper, so if he hears it, he’s definitely going to be waking me up.

Autumn: You’re pretty amazing. You wake up, and you’re there, and it’s magical.

Kris: It’s so funny because almost all the births that I’ve been on have been in the middle of the night where we’re getting a call. Hey, we’re starting to have some contractions. Okay, great. Keep us informed. Let us know when your water breaks, and we’ll be there, wherever you’re going to be having your birth. We’re very flexible, so if you were originally going to be doing a home birth and then something is weird and you need to go to the hospital, then just have someone let us know. It doesn’t matter who it is. Just put our number in your birth plan, and we’ll be there.

Alyssa: That’s what a doula’s good for. We can call you and let you know. By the way, we’re headed to the hospital.

Autumn: And the greatest part is we have a whole team, so during that time when Kris is on call and she needs to be ready whenever, anything that she has going on, we’re there to kind of help take care of that so we free up her time to be available to be at the birth no matter what.

Kris: Yeah. I block off your due date for sure. That entire day is completely reserved. I won’t schedule anything. And then for a week or so before and a week or so after, because babies come when they want to come, I have those listed as on-call, which means that if someone else needs to take one of my other sessions that I have prebooked because you’re going into labor at that point, then they have that. I have a bag packed and with me wherever I am, so I am ready to go and meet you as soon as I get the call.

Kristin: Sounds just like what I do as a birth doula! And most of my calls are in the middle of the night unless it’s a planned birth. Or early morning; I sometimes will get a call. They’ve been laboring at home in early labor, and then they want my support early in the morning.

Kris: Babies just love coming at night.

Autumn: They do!

Kris: My son came right after midnight, and our birth photographer, Bree — she’s one of our team. She actually doesn’t shoot anymore, but she picked up a camera for me. I think I was her last session that she did. And she came — she was so sweet. She came at — oh, gosh. I don’t even know what time. She came pretty early. Probably about 7:00, I think, is when my water broke and everything, and she was there until about 1:00 in the morning when I finally kicked her out. You need to go home; you need to go to sleep. We got our photos; we’re great. We got our few things that we wanted afterwards. Go home and sleep. But that also leads me to the photos of after the birth, like how long we get to stay for that. That’s actually a really good segue there that I hadn’t planned.

Kristin: And I know some clients can hire you just for that first hour or that time of bonding and not the actual labor if their preference is to not be photographed during the birth itself.

Kris: Definitely. It’s still all the same thing. We’re still on call and everything, and the way our packages work, we have two different ones. They both include up to two hours of post-birthing, and that covers the first moments of your child’s life. So if you want us in there for the birth, then that can include the cord cutting and such. If you want us there for the first little bit afterwards, it can include the first time you’re nursing your child if that’s what you end up doing. If you’re doing skin to skin contact; the weight, height, and head measurements, the footprints, and the first family photo of you all together in that blissful moment. And then also if you have any family members that are coming to meet the newest addition, so if you have an older child that’s coming to meet the younger sibling for the first time, or you have some grandparents that are being grandparents for the very first time, we can be there for that, too.

Alyssa: How does it work — let’s say a client gets induced and says, hey, I’m going to the hospital, but then it ends up taking two days. How do you — or have you had a client like that where you’re there for a really, really long time?

Kris: We’ve had one where we’ve been there for —

Autumn: We’ve had to do switch shifts.

Kris: Yeah. I’ve done some switch shifts before where we kind of tag out. Okay, I’ve been here for, like, 12, 13 hours. I need a momentary break. I need a little cat nap, but we don’t want you to have to worry about us missing it. So then we just kind of tag out with one of our other team members, and then we swap for a little bit.

Alyssa: So there’s no price difference?

Kris: No.

Alyssa: It’s just whatever birth you have, whether it’s two hours or two days?

Kris: Yep. Your kid comes in the time when your kid wants to come, and we’ve got to be flexible with that.

Kristin: Right. And even with inductions, there can be some sweet moments where they’re on the birthing ball or moving around the room, and you can capture – again, if it is a couple, you can couple the intimacy with the couple, or if there’s a doula supporting…

Autumn: Well, the greatest part is it’s not just one single moment with the birth. It’s the entire process, and being able to capture that for basically the entire family is so special because we literally see the moments before, where they’re on the ball and they’re trying to get them out, and then they —

Kris: It’s the whole story.

Autumn: It literally is the story.

Kris: And going back to personal experience, I was induced for my son because he was a week late and didn’t want to come. And there are times, because it was a long, emotional, hard birth, that don’t necessarily remember. But because I had my photographer there and I made a book later on, I’m able to remember and to kind of — not necessarily relive, because I don’t remember the pain, thank God, but I do remember the joy, and I remember thinking – like, for me the birthing ball was bad, and all I can remember was saying, “Ball bad! Ball bad!” But I remember that because I have the photo of me with that ball and then the ball completely on the other side of the room because I didn’t even want to see it.

Kristin: Listening to your body is key! That’s what I say. That’s part of it!

Alyssa: So once you get into the labor and delivery room, what does that look like? Are you kind of like a fly on the wall trying to stay out of — like, you don’t want them to even know you’re there, or are you talking to them and —

Kris: It kind of depends on the couple or on the mom and what they want, and this is why we do the prenatal consult. We usually try to help out if we can, like either be a gopher — like, so if mom is really sweating but doesn’t want her partner to leave and needs a wet washcloth or something, then we will do that. If you need some ice chips or something, we can go and do that for you so that your people don’t have to leave, although of course if you have doulas, then they usually end up helping out that way, too. So we help out where we can, but otherwise, it’s usually very intimate, and the couple is pretty much in their own world. We just kind of capture that and stay out of the doctors’ way. After you have your baby, we know that you’re really excited to show the photos of your new little baby to friends and family and all your loved ones, and so instead of sending cell phone photos that can look a little weird, we do sneak peeks so we’ll provide you with a handful of photos that are completely ready to send out to friends and family.

Alyssa: Like the next day?

Kris: Within 24 hours. Usually less than; it’s usually one of the first things that we do when we leave the birthing room.

Autumn: She gets really excited. She gets back to the studio, and she’s, like, “I’m doing this! I’m really excited!”

Alyssa: You always do. Every team photo, you’re, like, okay, give me a couple weeks. And then two days later, you’re like, “They’re ready! I was just too excited. I had to go through them.”

Autumn: Well, I mean, it’s our work, and we get so excited about it, and we can’t wait to show it off because what is the point of just sitting on it when we can share it with everyone?

Alyssa: In my past life, I was a photographer, and it was the same thing. While it’s fresh in my head, I wanted to go through them. It’s exciting to see what you just created. So I get it.

Kris: You’ll get a handful of photos the same day, usually within a few hours, so you can send them out. And then the final photos, we say two weeks, but it’s usually sooner.

Kristin: And certainly, I feel like birth is a major rite of passage, and as wedding photographers, you understand how much time, money, and preparation is involved in planning for that rite of passage, but really, when you look at minor investments in the birth and postpartum time for a family, hiring a birth photographer or doing newborn shots doesn’t even compare to the investment in a wedding photographer, for example.

Kris: Oh, yeah, no. It’s a fraction.

Kristin: Can you explain a bit about what your fees are so people who aren’t familiar with birth photographers — as you talk about being on call and longer lengths and so on?

We have a couple different packages when it comes to the birth, and they each include high-resolution images for you to share, to do whatever you want with. And then you also get an album to create for our highest package, which is a 20-page lay-flat album.

Kristin: You’re saying a digital album?

Autumn: No, a photo album. So you get digital files, high-resolution, and then our highest package, you get a 20-page album to share and have it on your table so you can show it off. And plus like Kris said, you get to relive the moments because sometimes you just don’t remember, and having that printed album is so important because you can’t have all of your images live on digital because you don’t know how long they’re going to last. We always want everybody to print things.

Kris: Which is why we provide you with the high-resolution images, too, because those are good quality for printing. So you’re welcome to print them yourself or you can print with us. We have a la carte print packages, too. So the first package, like Autumn was saying, it’s $850. It includes everything: the prenatal consult, the on-call availability, the two hours after birth, and then 100 or more, however many, high-resolution images, and a 20-page 5×5 print photo album. And then our second package, which is our base package, is $500, and that includes 30 to 50 high-resolution images, so that’s if you need just a little bit; just a little reminder, not the whole big coverage of everything. And then because we want to see you guys again and provide you with a really good first family photo that’s not right after birth, we include 10% off your newborn session if you get either of these two packages because, yeah, your first family photo — yeah, it’s great to have one in the hospital, but let’s get one where your hair and makeup are actually done, too.

Kristin: And I know you do documentary-style or more of the posed family shots, depending on preference and price and so on?

Autumn: Absolutely. We actually prefer doing newborn sessions in the home because it’s where you’re going to be the most comfortable, and then you also don’t have to worry about packing up the family and moving them to our studio, which can be a hassle sometimes. Our goal is to make everything hassle-free, so we come to you, and we can document your entire family as you are, and we can also get some posed shots that would be printed and put on the wall. The documentary style also work well if you do an album. Plus, it’s more realistic. It’s you in your zone. It’s where your family is. And if you have other kids, it’s also really fun to see how they interact with the baby, also.

Kris: Some of the documentary ones that we’ve done are within your nursery, so if you’re changing your baby on the table or nursing them in a rocking chair or something like that and then you get a photo of the entire nursery in this environmental setting, too.

Kristin: It’s nice. You did that with a twin client of ours.

Kris: Yeah. They were so sweet. They were adorable, and we had grandma in there, too.

Alyssa: So if anyone is interested in birth photos or family photos or baby photos —

Kristin: Or maternity photos.

Alyssa: Yeah, maternity photos — what’s the best way for them to reach out?

Kris: Probably our website would be the best. We have all our packages listed on there.

Kristin: And you also have a page on the Gold Coast Doulas website.

Kris: We do, so you can just go to the Gold Coast Doulas website and go into Birth Photography and find us that way, too. And then we have all of our packages listed and a handful of images to show you, just kind of a portfolio of examples to see if we’re your flavor of photographer or not.

Autumn: And the best way to find out is just reaching out and setting up a consult to get to know us, really.

Kris: Yeah. You can do that straight from the website. We have contact boxes. You can email us.

Alyssa: And probably depending on the time of year, as long as it’s not wedding season, you could do it last minute. Like, hey, I’m 38 weeks and I just decided I want a photographer.

Autumn: Oh, absolutely.

Alyssa: As long as you’re not in the throes of wedding season, you might be able to say yes?

Kris: You know, as long as you’re not a Friday or Saturday, chances are really high.

Alyssa: Cool. Well, thanks for joining us. Is there anything else that we didn’t cover?

Autumn: I did want to point out that another thing after birth – one of our favorite things to do is follow you through the first year. What we have is a package that basically is dedicated to capturing your baby at several stages in the first year. So then you can do the three, six, nine months and then the one year, so you can also print that out and get it on the wall to see how much they’ve grown.,

Kris: They change so much in that first year.

Autumn: They really, really do. It’s amazing. They go from literally —

Kris: Tiny squishes to little humans.

Autumn: Yeah. It’s amazing. And it’s really fun for us, especially somebody like Kris who’s there during the birth, probably the maternity session, and after with the newborn, and then we get to follow you through and literally watch your family grow. It is so much fun.

Kris: It’s awesome watching them grow.

Autumn: Yeah. Because our goal is to become lifelong friends, not just the photographer one day.

Kris: Yeah. We want to get to know you and become friends and tell your story.

Kristin: I love that.

Alyssa: That’s cool. Thanks!

Birth Photography: Podcast Episode #92 Read More »

Perinatal Mood Disorders: Podcast Episode #91

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / birth doula, birth support, childbirth, gold coast doulas, mood disorders, perinatal mood disorders, postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, postpartum doulas, postpartum psychosis, postpartum recovery, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, stress and pregnancy

Today we talk with Elsa, a therapist at Mindful Counseling in Grand Rapids, Michigan who specializes in perinatal mood disorders. Learn what postpartum anxiety and depression look like, how they are different, and signs to look out for. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, and I’m here today with Elsa Lockman from Mindful Counseling. She’s here to talk to us a bit about postpartum anxiety. Elsa specializes in the following areas: perinatal mood disorders, which includes postpartum depression, anxiety, OCD, grief and loss, eating disorders, and body image issues. She also works with clients dealing with relationship problems, coping with medical illness, trauma and abuse, women’s issues and self-esteem, and mood disorders and anxiety. So obviously, you’re a natural fit working with clients who struggle with everything from eating disorders to anxiety and depression, transitions in their relationships, and expanding their family or having their first child. So today, Elsa, let’s focus a bit on the difference between postpartum depression and anxiety and what women can do if they’re interested in seeking treatment and getting help.

Elsa: Yes, postpartum depression and anxiety can go together. Sometimes women will struggle with anxiety with depression. Sometimes it is separate. Postpartum anxiety and depression can look very different. People classically think of postpartum depression as mothers who don’t connect with their babies, moms who are checked out and can’t get out of bed all day. That’s actually not always the case. Often, women with depression are exhausted and often can’t stop crying. They can’t look, maybe, on the positive side or think rationally. As far as the anxiety, it can come out more in not feeling necessarily down but feeling like you can’t relax; feeling that something bad is going to happen at any time. Having thoughts of something happening to your baby; scary thoughts. Sometimes even flashes of images of very violent things happening or the baby falling, and moms often feel guilty for those, actually, and don’t tell anybody, but they’re actually really important to talk about.

Kristin: I had a friend who was afraid of driving in her car or anyone driving her baby. There can be a lot of, like you said, those intrusive thoughts.

Elsa: Yes, and it’s obsessive sometimes and you can’t get it out of your head. So rationally, you can say, I’m not going to drop the baby going down the stairs. I have the baby in my hands. But it keeps going; it gets hooked, the idea or the image, and then they’ll struggle with almost a loop where it just can’t get out of your head. Or anxiety can present sometimes in something around sickness. No germs. Thinking that my baby is going to get sick; I can’t take her out to the store, and I can’t take her to this house. And how far that goes; I mean, some of these are common sense, and you want to take care of your child, but then how far does it goes? Does it prevent you from doing things that you want to do, or do others notice that maybe this is being a little unreasonable? It seems to be causing you even more anxiety to be thinking some of these things. Another part is that sometimes anxiety can come out as anger. Feeling just angry and irritable; feeling tense. That can come out, obviously, with partners, and they can notice it. Being different, a marked change from before for women. Those are some of the symptoms that come that people can notice with anxiety. Another one would be sleeping; when moms can’t sleep when the baby is actually sleeping. That’s another sign of postpartum anxiety for people to watch out for.

Kristin: Sure. That makes sense. I know even with postpartum doulas in the house, some women still struggle with fully sleeping even though their child is being care for by someone else. And sleep is so essential. There are so many studies on how, if you’re not getting enough sleep, it can lead to mood disorders and anxiety and so on.

Elsa: Yeah, it just leaves women very vulnerable, and now it’s become so normalized that part of the postpartum world is just not getting sleep. And I think it’s also expected that women are also just supposed to go on with their lives and do all the normal things that they’re supposed to do even when they’re running on little to no sleep, and this goes on for weeks or months.

Kristin: Yes! So what resources would you suggest if they’re looking for help? Obviously, we can talk about how to reach out to you!

Elsa: For sure! You can definitely contact Mindful Counseling GR. You can contact Pine Rest. They actually have a mother baby unit, so they actually have therapists that have specialized training, like I do, to work with women postpartum.

Kristin: And now Pine Rest even has the ER when you can —

Elsa: Oh, the urgent care center?

Kristin: Yes, the urgent care center. They can go in at night and not have to go the hospital.

Elsa: yeah, they can go to the urgent care center and get assessed and get attention or treatment a lot quicker. OB offices have a list of therapists who are trained and specialize with postpartum or perinatal mood disorders, which includes anxiety and depression in pregnancy and postpartum. So there’s a list that you can ask for from your OB, as well.

Kristin: Great! How do they directly reach out to you? Are you accepting new patients, Elsa?

Elsa: Yes, I am! You can reach out to me by contacting me through our website.

Kristin: Perfect! Thank you for coming on today!

Perinatal Mood Disorders: Podcast Episode #91 Read More »

Symphysis Pubis Dysfunction with Rise Wellness Chiropractic: Podcast Episode #90

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Birth, Doulas, Pregnancy / Alyssa Veneklase / birth doula, chiropractic care, gold coast doulas, high-risk pregnancy, postpartum recovery, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, pregnant

Dr. Annie and Dr. Rachel talk to Alyssa about Symphysis Pubis Dysfunction (SPD), how to prevent it, how to treat it, and things every pregnant and postpartum woman should be doing! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Hello. Welcome to another episode of Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa, and I’m talking with Dr. Rachel and Dr. Annie again of Rise Wellness Chiropractic. How are you?

Great!

So I got asked by a client about symphysis pubis dysfunction, and I’m not even exactly sure what that is, but you knew. Right when I told you, you knew. So can you tell me?

So SPD — sometimes people think of sensory processing disorder, which is with older kids, but in relation to pregnancy, it’s symphysis pubis dysfunction.

And what the heck does that mean?

It’s a mouthful! So basically, where your two pelvic bones meet in the front is called your symphysis pubis, so that’s where the two bones meet together. There’s cartilage in between there, and that area widens for birth. So usually late second to third trimester, we’ll see some women will start having pain. That can be related to the relaxin that’s in their system that’s helping the ligaments loosen and helping that area separate, but what we usually find is it’s more due to pelvic imbalances. Usually one side of the pelvis is higher than the other or something like that or it’s rubbing in a weird way. That’s usually what causes that symphysis pubis dysfunction.

So it’s strictly for pregnancy?

Yes.

And are there any ways to not get it? Avoid it? Treat it?

Get adjusted!

Yeah, just because if it’s caused from a misalignment —

Exactly. Yeah, if it’s caused from pelvis imbalances, then that is directly a chiropractic issue. It’s biomechanical. That’s something that we can address through adjustments. And then we also have stretches that you can do, and there’s also a Serola belt which is like an SI belt. It goes around your sacroiliac joints, and it’s just a low belt. It doesn’t really do anything in terms of — it’s not like a belly band or something that you would wear to support the baby, but it does help to support the SI joints and keep everything together. Really, it’s hypermobility in that joint that’s causing that pain.

It’s too mobile?

It’s too mobile. Yeah, so we usually see it with not first-time pregnant moms but usually second or third, especially if they’ve had some kind of fall or something like that while pregnant. They can injure their pelvis, and that’s usually what brings those things up. I actually had a patient a couple weeks who came to us for SPD, and under care, she was doing great. All her pain went away. But she had fallen during her first pregnancy, and then during her second pregnancy, she started having all this pain and stuff come on.

So falling during pregnancy; it’s not just like a random fall at any time in your life that could affect this?

It could be. Pregnancy is really good at exacerbating existing issues or past issues. Like if you’ve had any pelvic imbalances in your past and then you’re pregnant, just that relaxin is going to kind of flare things up. Typically, what we see is pain with putting weight on one leg. Climbing stairs is when your pelvis is moving the most, so that’s usually when a lot of the pain is flared up.

Walking; something that you don’t have to do very often.

Yeah!

Sounds horrible!

But sitting is not good for it either. It’s one of those things that nothing is good for it.

Laying hurts; turning while you’re laying. Like that’s not already hard when you’re in the third trimester!

Does it actually cause any more pain or discomfort during labor and delivery?

It can. It depends on really, like, what the pelvis — because if you think of the pelvic bowl, if there’s imbalances in the pelvis, it’s not just affecting the bones. It’s also affecting your pelvic floor muscles. It’s affecting all of your stabilizer muscles. So it can potentially affect how things go during labor. I don’t know if it creates more pain, necessarily, or if it would be, but any pelvic imbalance is going to effect, probably, the efficiency of your labor.

Plus, it doesn’t necessarily clear up after.

That was my next question.

Yeah, it’s not like you deliver the baby and then it’s gone.

Because you still have that imbalance?

Exactly.

Exactly, yeah.

So then what do you do for that? Just keep getting adjusted?

Well, it should clear. If you’re getting adjusted, it should help clear it up while pregnant. So I guess what we’re saying is, you should get checked if it’s happening.

I mean, it’s definitely like you have to retrain that pelvic imbalance somehow, and you do that through chiropractic adjustments or through exercises, through physical therapy, sutff like that.

Yeah. PT floor rehab, yeah.

Probably a combination of both, right?

Right. If you do it all, then you probably have best outcomes.

Yeah, I don’t think we understand how important the pelvic floor is, and all we’ve learned is Kegels. That’s not necessarily even a good thing to think. When I saw a physical therapist for pelvic floor issues specifically, I was, like, that makes so much sense! Even just the way we breathe; I didn’t know that my diaphragm was part of — what would that be? The top? The diaphragm is the top of your pelvic floor?

Yeah. It’s the top of your —

Like the space? I guess I can’t say top of the floor. Your pelvic floor is the floor.

Your intrabdominal space. So it’s like the lid, and then your pelvic floor is the bottom. But it’s a big airtight balloon, pretty much, so when you breathe, it affects everything. But pelvic floor is an issue that we don’t talk about, really, with women in birth, but it’s a huge thing. Every woman who pushes out a baby has pelvic floor issues. Every woman who has a C-section has pelvic floor issues because those are attached to your abdominals, too. So, really, every woman should be getting some kind of rehab on pelvic floor after birth. That’s my soapbox!

I’m in these group exercise classes, and every woman is, like, oh, jumping jacks. I’m going to pee my pants! I had one friend who was, like, I was working out and I didn’t know if it was sweat or I had peed my pants! Yeah. I get it!

Well, pelvic floor and core strength, too, are both things that get overlooked with women after pregnancy, and then we see women with back pain later, and it’s because their core is so weak. So, really, we’re just promoting physical therapy pelvic floor rehab. It’s what needs to be done.

And chiropractic care. Retraining all that neurology is important.

I think even just learning about it! I’ve done yoga classes forever, and they will say, like, during this pose, tighten your pelvic floor. I’m, like, what the hell are they talking about? What? How do I do that? But now after learning that even breathing is different and the feeling of — I hate saying Kegel because it’s not even what it is, but I guess that is the feeling of what you would do to stop your pee, but doing that during certain exercises is a whole different feeling, but I think now that I’m conscious of it, I’m, like, oh, that makes sense. Oh, I can do that here. Okay. It’s gotten a lot better, but I still can’t do jumping jacks.

See? The jumping jacks! I don’t do them either. They’re like, do jumping jacks to warm up, and I’m like… No.

I do the ones where I just put my hands up. I just kick my leg out. I’m fine with it!

It’s what everyone’s doing! They call those jumping jills.

Is there anything else pregnant or postpartum women need to know about symphysis pubis dysfunction?

It’s not something that you need to suffer through. There’s a lot of chiropractic studies where it helps in a lot of case studies, but also, biomechanically, it makes sense. You don’t have to feel like you can’t walk up the stairs or sit or that you have to be in a lot of pain when you’re trying to sleep. Find out you’re pregnant and get under care. That’s really what we tell people.

Tell people where to find you!

We are in East Town in the Kingsley Building right next to Gold Coast Doulas, or you can find us at our website or on Facebook and Instagram. You can message us on those platforms.

Well, as always, thanks! We’ll have you on again soon!

Symphysis Pubis Dysfunction with Rise Wellness Chiropractic: Podcast Episode #90 Read More »

Saving for Baby: Podcast Episode #88

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Pregnancy / Alyssa Veneklase / birth support, gold coast doulas, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, pregnant

Kristin talks to Paige, The Millennial Guru, again today about how to financially prepare for growing your family! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, co-owner of Gold Coast, and I’ve got Paige Cornetet, the Millennial Guru, here with me for our second episode on financial tips. This one is focused on, once you’ve had your baby, how to really stock savings and plan ahead and make important financial decisions. So welcome, Paige!

Paige: Thank you! Thanks for having me on!

Kristin: Yes, it’s our pleasure! Fill us in, for those who missed the previous episode, a bit about what you do, and then we’ll get into your ideas for how our clients and audience can save.

Paige: Perfect, thank you. I started the business Millennial Guru, and basically, I do workshops and trainings focused on women as well as millennials. I’ve written a couple of children books focused on financial education.

Kristin: Fantastic. Yeah, I love your books, and you’ve got another one coming out?

Paige: Yes. This one’s called The Hen in the Pen, and it’s all about investments and understanding the difference when you eat your chickens, when you eat your eggs, and if you eat all your chickens, you don’t have anymore eggs left, so focusing on eating your chickens because they provide for your lifestyle and growing your flock of chickens.

Kristin: I love it! I can’t wait for it to come out. So tips — okay, so baby is here, and children are expensive?

Paige: What?! Yes, very!

Kristin: So let us know what you would recommend for our audience.

Paige: Oh, my gosh. I mean, that’s a good question; that’s a big question. I would say tips for moms: I think it’s really important to definitely have, like we talked about before on the previous episode — margin. So understanding that cushion of what it is, how much that you need for a rainy day fund, whether it’s an emergency or something that the baby needs that you didn’t know that you were going to need and they didn’t get it at your baby shower, whatever it is. Understanding what are the necessities, and then taking it even further, around the wants and needs. So understanding what is it that you need; what is it that your baby needs; what is it that your family needs, and then what is it that you want? What is it that your baby wants? And what is it that your family wants? Kind of differentiating those two, I think, makes a big difference.

Kristin: Sure. And they’re all the decisions of, do you leave your job and stay home with the baby, or do you look at in-home or a childcare center for daycare, and how do you maximize your income if you do return to work when all this money is going out for childcare, and what is the best situation for your family?

Paige: Totally.

Kristin: Short-term and then long-term.

Paige: Well, and I think you have to be honest with yourself, as well. I have a lot of friends who are having babies, and they’re either going back to work or leaving work and figuring out what that is, what that means to them. And I think that, as well as, yeah, your personal desires on top of, you know, what is it that you can afford, whether it’s daycare, whether it’s staying home, and how does that look for you? But I think being honest is the first step with yourself. And then on top of that is, what is it that you want, and what is it that you need? How do you need to provide for that desire?

Kristin: Yes. And then planning for college and other expenses and even — I mean, my kids are in sports and other activities, like theater, and all of the activities get pricey. My daughter started dance at age two, for example, and so you think of those expenses, and are you going to limit activities for children? What are you willing to budget for activities, sports, and so on?

Paige: Absolutely. Well, it’s interesting you say that about activities. My family had a saying. It was called GUTS, and it stood for Golf, U Pick, Tennis, and Swimming. So those were the four activities that we were allowed to do, so golf, tennis, and swimming are things you can do until you’re 80, so they’re life-long sports. Even if you don’t play it, you still have to learn it and do it. And then the u-pick was just, whatever it is that you wanted. So I loved dance. I loved ballet; I loved jazz. And I had to do it. So even though it was u-pick, since there was four of us, my dad was, like, well, your sister has to do it with you, too, in terms of coordination and carpool and schedules. It’s time and money.

Kristin: That’s what it’s all about, yes.

Paige: My sister, Brooke, she didn’t love dance as much as I did, but she did love the vending machine that gave candy at the bottom of it, so I was able to convince her to do one more year because there was skittles and candy that we could get right after. Her want was candy; mine was dance.

Kristin: It’s all about compromise.

Paige: Exactly.

Kristin: And then looking at other things outside of kids’ activities and just — you had talked in the previous podcast about maximizing your time, talents, energy, and so on. So outsourcing your household things, whether it’s getting your groceries delivered by Shipt or having a housecleaner come in, or a postpartum doula, which I highly recommend! Get some sleep! What are your priorities? So tell us about some of your theories in maximizing and how to figure out what might be more beneficial to outsource.

Paige: Yeah. I think just the things that you mentioned are really great, but understanding what is it that takes you a lot of time and what are the things that you don’t like to do that you can outsource? So I would say, yeah, I love the grocery delivery. If you want to work out, too, who is going to take the baby so that you can be physically active, or is there a place like the gym that you can bring your baby to so that you can work out while the baby’s there? So I think figuring out what are your lists of goals; what are the things you need? Definitely sleep! Number one is sleep, and then we can talk about food and physical activity. It’s understanding that, what that is that you need, and then going, okay, so if I need sleep, let’s hire a doula so that mom can get some rest. Okay, now that I have the sleep — food. I need healthy food. Using outsourcing; people bringing food, meals. Communities, whatnot; Shipt.

Kristin: Yeah, special food delivery services that are local, as well as national, that you can get food delivered to your door, which is also a time saver, and if you can get specialty diet needs because a lot of people may need to cut out dairy or have certain allergies if they’re breastfeeding their baby and need to make some adjustments to their regular diet.

Paige: Exactly.

Kristin: So other than that, what are your other tips when you’re looking at — you’ve got this baby. I mean, there’s college, obviously. That’s a big one.

Paige: Yes. Well, I would say education, just in general, is an important one to be thinking about because, okay, they’re going to preschool. Now they’re in middle school. All those different levels of schooling, and what does that look like? Where do you live? For example, Michigan has a really great public school system. Where I grew up, Florida, does not. So what does that look like where you live, the state? What works for you? Would you want to send your kid to, like, a Montessori — I grew up there, so I’m a big fan of Montessori — and if you do, what does that look like? So I think education is definitely a priority and planning for that, as well as just, not only education for paying for that, but education for your child from you because you are a teacher, as well, to your children. And so are there things that you want to teach your child? For example, I just have coffee this morning with a good friend. She has a two-year-old, and she’s, like, what is education? I want my daughter to go to a great college and — but she’s like, but I want her to have access to a lot of experiences like they’re going to spend a month and a half in Hawaii with her brother to really understand — and she’s like, I’m bringing my daughter with me. I’m so excited because it’s important for her to see the world is bigger than just West Michigan where she lives. So education, I think, in the whole sense of the word, is definitely very important on many levels for your children.

Kristin: It’s not just planning for college. You’re looking at, will it be a private or parochial school that you need to reserve funds for, or is music education? You would lump that into the education category? Same as sporting activities, for example?

Paige: Yes, as well as experiences, too, right? So let’s say travel is very important to you and you want that to be important to your children. Are you going to be providing for those experiences that are very educational but maybe aren’t necessarily around schooling?

Kristin: So when you’re planning your family budget, how does all of that fit in?

Paige: Well, I think it depends on each family, of course. So each family has, you know, from different jobs, different means, different lifestyles, different priorities. But the one thing that we all have in common is time. So we all have that equally, and I think that understanding where is the time going and what is it that your children are going to be doing? For example, like you said, different sports; activities. What’s important to you? What’s important to the child? What’s important to give them exposure to? And then I think if you can do that and set that overarching as a bigger picture, it kind of will fall into place and you can start planning for that more strategically.

Kristin: So how can people connect with you individually if they want to set up a planning session or hear you speak? You have many appearances with your book releases coming out and so on.

Paige: They can email me at paige@millennialguru.com. Or you can call me and contact me at 616-443-1000. Or they can go to my website or any social media, Millennial Guru.

Kristin: Thank you so much for being on!

Paige: Thank you! Thanks for having me!

Saving for Baby: Podcast Episode #88 Read More »

The Millennial Guru: Podcast Episode #87

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, pregnant

Paige, The Millennial Guru, shares some savvy saving tips to help you think about priorities, wants, and needs and how to budget for them. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, co-owner, and I’m here today with Paige Cornetet, and she is known as the Millennial Guru. Welcome, Paige!

Paige: Thank you! So excited to be on the show today!

Kristin: Yes! Tell us about why you started Millennial Guru. You’re also an author. Fill us in, since you’re a local Grand Rapids resident and business owner.

Paige: Absolutely! So I started the business with the intent in mind of how to help my generation. I’m a Millennial, too, so full disclosure, I’m a Millennial helping the Millennials. It was about how to help my generation understand themselves and dive in a little bit further, as well as teams. Obviously, when you get out of college, you get a job and you go to work, and you work with a different type of generation of people, so yourself, as well as different generations, and kind of how to bridge that gap with the different generations. What does that look like with different technology, with different concepts, with different philosophies. I think the most important thing with who I work with is starting with yourself. Who are you? What are your talents? What are you good at? Then, once you understand that fully, how can you express that to your team and understand your team members and their talents.

Kristin: I love that!

Paige: You, yourself, is kind of the thought and the basis of the philosophy for my business. Then it kind of led into not only understanding yourself but also understanding your wealth. Those kind of go hand in hand. I wrote a bunch of different children’s books, and it was really fun. It was with the intent of, okay, so I’m helping my generation understand about themselves and also about their wealth and that the themes are and the concepts and the understanding. Then I was thinking, how can I help the even younger generation, the kids, the little guy, understand at even an earlier age. They’re not going to necessarily understand themselves yet, but they can understand themes and concepts of their wealth or their future wealth.

Kristin: My kids have one of your books, and they love it!

Paige: Yay!

Kristin: So as far as focus, how can people who are local to you connect and figure out, even if they’re not ready to have kids, maybe how to plan for their future of wanting a family, wanting a house/

Paige: Yes! First of all they can connect on the website or my email, paige@millennialguru.com.

Kristin: And you’re very active on social media. They can find you on Instagram, Facebook, everywhere.

Paige: Exactly, all of the above. I think that, first of all, they can connect with me, and then we can have a bunch of different conversations. I do workshops, on top of that. It’s understanding first what you’re good at and what that looks like for you. So, for example, one of my talents is Maximizer. I love doing many things at once, meaning killing many birds with one stone. That’s the high pressure life, and how I do things is make sure that I’m covering a lot of things. It’s kind of for the greater good, the excellent. So I bring that to my business and also my personal life, as well. So when I’m investing, I want to maximize my return. I always want to maximize; what is the best way that I can do it to get the most out of it? That’s how I do things, including my goalsetting. As an example of a big goal, I have three siblings, and I wanted to go on a trip with them each individually this year, which is a lot of trips. My 30th birthday is coming up, and so I thought what if I can just do a whole sibling trip and we can all go together and I can check all those boxes off at once? We’re about ready to do that. We’re going on a safari in Africa, the four of us together, soon. That’s an example of how understanding yourself and how you approach things can apply to you professionally, to your goals, your personal goals, your business goals, and to your future financial planning goals.

Kristin: What are your priorities? If travel is a priority before having children, how do you save for that and craft out the time in a busy work schedule? Life in general is busy.

Paige: What? It is?

Kristin: Right? And then saving for a family if that’s something they desire, as well as checking off those boxes of travel and things that they want to get accomplished.

Paige: Absolutely, and I think you said that really great. Priorities means establishing what are your wants and what are your needs. Once you have the needs covered for you, you also have to think about the needs when you have a family. What are the needs for the kids? What do they need? What are their wants? First, if you can do it with yourself: what do I want? What do I need? Planning financially for that will help make it easier going forward when you do have a family and you have kids. It’s like, okay. Do I want those really cute little baby shoes for them, or do they actually need them? They’re really cute and they’re Instagrammable, so…

Kristin: So much of life right now is the Instagram filters and photos!

Paige: And they do grow, so eventually, they probably won’t need those shoes. It’s things like that.

Kristin: And you also travel quite a bit. We have listeners from all around the country, and you do workshops and speaking engagements?

Paige: Yeah. It depends on who and what and how and also where, but I’m mostly in Eastern standard time. That’s kind of where I stick myself a lot. It’s a little bit easier for myself. Again, my Maximizer can’t help it. Let’s just stay in the same time zone so that I don’t have to catch up on sleep! But yes, I’m all over. I do a lot of speaking engagements and workshops, mostly focused around yourself and your wealth.

Kristin: And we had talked ab bit when we met up for coffee recently. You do some strategy session for entrepreneurs like myself and helping small businesses maximize their wealth, personally and for the business itself.

Paige: Absolutely. It’s interesting that you say that because I’ve been thinking about that a lot as myself being an entrepreneur. Where is my margin? Where is that space where I can have creative development for that, and where is the space that I can have financially, as well? So the margin has been kind of at the forefront of helping entrepreneurs. Where is that cushion — and margin is the word that I use for it, but you could use a lot of different words — of financially, and so feeling that way or distributing or redistributing things, as well as your time and energy as an entrepreneur. Are you doing it all?

Kristin: Yes, or can you outsource?

Paige: And that goes back to families, too, right? If there are certain things when you’re having kids or having a family, what can you outsource? Who can you use to rely on, if it’s a community or if it’s grandparents. Extra set of hands!

Kristin: Yes, we’ll have to talk about some of that outsourcing for families in our next episode. We’ll have you on to talk a bit more about savings when you have a newborn. And again, if people are interested, they can find you at your website.

Paige: Thank you so much!

Kristin: Yeah! Thanks for being on!

The Millennial Guru: Podcast Episode #87 Read More »

What is a B Corp? Podcast Episode #86

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / b corp, gold coast doulas, pregnancy podcast

Today Kristin talks to Hanna from Local First about what it means to be Certified B Corporation and how it impacts our community. Gold Coast Doulas is the area’s most recent B Corp! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, co-owner of Gold Coast, and I’ve got Hanna Schultz here with me. She’s from Local First, and we’re going to be talking about B Corp business today. Welcome, Hanna!

Hanna: Thank you so much for having me!

Kristin: Thanks for being here! So we have partnered with you. We’ve been a Local First member from the day we started Gold Coast, but we’ve been working with you over the years, initially becoming a Good for Michigan business, and now we’re so excited to be a certified B Corp business. I’d love to hear your involvement in the process and why B Corps matter.

Hanna: Absolutely. Local First started about 15 years ago. The organization was born about 15 years ago, and through the years, we have really seen, and the statistics support, that local businesses are better for the community in a lot of different ways, based on every indicator: environmentally, socially, and the way that businesses give back to the community. So we’ve leaned into that, those studies, and what we’ve seen with our Local First businesses, and like you had mentioned, we sort of created this program that we call Good for Michigan, helping businesses to really track their metrics around their environment, social, and community sustainability. We want businesses to success financially, and we see the connection between businesses that give back to the community and treat their employees well and also are conscientious about how they consume from the environment or what they put back into the environment. We see the connection between those things and a healthy business financially, so we have created programs to help businesses track those metrics. Through that work, we’ve also created a very strong partnership with a nonprofit called B Lab, and that is a nonprofit that certifies B Corps, like you mentioned. Gold Coast is Michigan’s newest certified B Corporation. There are 22 in the state now, which we are really excited about.

Kristin: It’s growing! It’s so exciting!

Hanna: Congratulations! Local First and the Good for Michigan program are a Be Local community here in Michigan, so if any business is interested in going through the certification process for B Corp, they can come to us to get some assistance or to be connected into resources to help them through that certification process.

Kristin: And we started with a Quick Impact Assessment to see where we scored, areas we could improve, and then sat down with you when we knew our goal was to become a B Corp. We were learning how we can work on our environmental impact, our community service, governance, and all of the different categories.

Hanna: Absolutely, and the Quick Impact Assessment is a very helpful tool for businesses to start out with because it’s free. It’s a relatively easy way to just sort of check out and see what questions are going to arise around your business, depending on the size of the business and the sector of business that you’re in. Gold Coast Doulas would not take the same exact assessment as a law firm or as a restaurant, for instance. The assessment kind of auto-generates based on the category that you self-select into. The Quick Impact Assessment is a good way to get a snapshot of what a larger assessment could look like and give you an idea of where the low-hanging fruit might be, for instance, around, well, we don’t have a recycling program in our office yet, but we could probably do that. Then Local First and Good for Michigan can help tie you into the resources in the community that can help you get there. West Michigan, in particular, which is where the work has started — we’ve started to scale across the state now, but West Michigan in particular is so rich in resources; specifically nonprofit resources, to help businesses kind of improve those different impact area. So there are organizations that can help you implement a recycling or composting program. There are resources that can help you check your energy efficiency and save money in those ways. There are also organizations that can help you with your employment to be a conscientious employer around benefits and salaries and cultural competency, which is something that is really relevant in our community. There are resources that we have curated through our website and in other ways to help businesses connect into those services that will cost them either very little or are free in the community so businesses can focus on spending the time to do the work and not worry about having to gather the resources financially to put into it. There are ways; there are certainly things you can do if you have the resources, but if you don’t and you’re really just interested in doing the best work that you can afford to do, we’ve helped businesses along that spectrum as well.

Kristin: We’ve certainly appreciated all of the support and help you’ve given to us! I would say the biggest learning experience for me in the six-month process of becoming certified was that, really, I have always prided ourselves on shopping local and looking at our vendors, but to become a B Corp, there’s so much documentation as part of that process and things that you don’t really even think of doing, like checking where do they get their t-shirts from, and are things ethically sources, and it’s more than just supporting local businesses. It’s looking at where their suppliers are, where the sourcing is, and thinking that you live in — your business is located in a sustainable building, but what can you do beyond that, and how are you tracking your energy usage and efficiency? It was eye-opening to me, going through the process and knowing how we can do better in the future because it’s a three-year certification process, so we have documentation. Just getting certified is a continuous process to become certified, and again, you have a lot of businesses that have been long-time B Corps and they have gone through that recertification process.

Hanna: Yeah, and I think one of the unique things about B Corp certification that is different, because I think as a business owner there are a number of different certifications out there, and you can look and see what fits your business best so that you can really signal your values as a business. I think something that’s becoming more and more prevalent is that consumers are supporting businesses that signal values that mirror theirs, so being able to say, hey, we’re a responsible business. Maybe it’s LEED certified. There are some that you see that are all over the place, and something that we see value in B Corp, particularly, is because the process is so rigorous and because you have to recertify every three years, which I think at times there is a challenge around whether a business or an organization might certify and then say, cool, we got the stamp of approval and now we’re done. We don’t have to kind of do this work. And you and I have had this discussion that it’s a constant process to continue improving and learning. We as individuals need to constantly improve and learn how we can be better stewards to our community and to our relationships and to the earth, and as a business, it’s the same. It’s a living, breathing thing, and it can constantly be improving and constantly be in touch with how to better walk out those values. The B Corp certification changes. You’ll take a different assessment in three years when you do recertify. Some things will slightly shift. They’ll expect you to have made improvements. When you do recertify, then you’ll be able to say, we’re not sitting on our laurels. Gold Coast has been doing this work. We’re working hard towards improving on all of our indicators, and that’s something that we find very meaningful. That said, it’s an arduous process, and it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of energy. I think it’s that much more satisfying when you do get there, but what we’re trying to do also as this B Local — so I put B Local sort of in finger quotes because it is a designation. It’s not like we almost have our own seal as Local First and Good for Michigan. We have our own designation as the convener of the Michigan B Corps, and what we’re trying to do with that designation is really provide what we call a community of practice around B Corp. When we started this relationship with B Lab and with the B Corp community, there were three B Corps in West Michigan, and this was about five years ago, six years ago now. And we’ve grown to over 20. So we’ve taken that time — and certainly, I mean, part of this is because the movement has grown and the recognition has grown and the return on the investment of time, then, is growing because more people know what B Corps are and are using that to make their decisions around purchasing. I also like to think that we had something to do with it.

Kristin: I would say so. I mean, that’s how I became passionate about it is talking to your team.

Hanna: Yeah, and we are hoping that we can connect the B Corps that have taken the time to certify and have put the resources into certification so that there is this community of 20 business owners, in theory, and they have — most of our B Corps in the community have a disaggregated structure of leadership, as well, so they usually have a number of staff that really are integral in the process, and that changes, obviously, depending on the size, and we have different sizes of B Corps in Michigan, as well, but we try to pull those folks together and keep those connections very close so that if you wanted to reach out to somebody at Brewery Vivant, for instance, or Cascade Engineering, or even in Ann Arbor, we have Revalue, which is an interesting organization that we’re doing some work in the Ann Arbor area, and you could call them up or we could make an introduction, and then there is this kind of collaborative spirit around, hey, I’m struggling with this; how have you seen your improvement along these lines? I don’t know how I’m going to convince, for instance, my office of six people to recycle because it’s just not anybody’s habit; I have no idea how this is going to work. How do I talk them into it? How did you talk them into it? There’s sort of this conversation that happens and this mentorship, collaborative, community of practice spirit that happens in those rooms when the walls come down and everybody’s vulnerable and saying, hey, I’m really struggling with this, or hey, I’d really love to pay my staff a living wage, but I have no idea how I’m going to do it. Or I’d really love to provide a 401(k) for my staff, but I just don’t know what that’s going to look like. How do I provide the training for people? How do I have conversations about appropriate workplace interactions or cultural competency in the workplace or making sure that my staff is being respectful to one another regardless of background, race, religion, sex, et cetera. How do we have those difficult conversations? And you, as the newest B Corp, the owner of the newest B Corp in Michigan, you will be invited to our next CEO peer circle, and that is where we sit around the table and we kind of have these lightly-facilitated, completely confidential, very vulnerable conversations around, like, what are we going through as a community of businesses that are intentionally-minded and wanting to, again, really signal those values, and how can we help each other? That’s been pretty powerful.

Kristin: I love that! It’s great to have that support and be able to look at best practices, and you also — even for businesses that aren’t intending to become B Corps, you have a lot of seminars in the area and you can learn about different topics every time, but you had one today that I missed. Tell us about some of the seminars that you put on that the public would be invited to or Local First members.

Hanna: Any businesses — if you’re not a Local First member, you don’t have to be to attend those workshops, and they typically cost no more than $15 or $20, so we try to keep them really inexpensive, but today, we actually had a workshop about how to be having intelligent — let’s see, it was the psychology around intelligent conversations, so we brought in an expert and a local business owner to specializes in this psychology of having difficult conversations in the workplace and interacting with staff and customers in a way that is emotionally intelligent, is making sure that you’re providing what you need to your employees that helps, ideally, keep those employees around, keep them happy, keep them productive and doing their best, bringing their best selves and their full selves to work. Something that we’re seeing across the board in the business community is a challenge around retention. Really having a hard time holding on to super talented folks, and it’s one of those sort of double-edged swords, right, because that’s an indicator of low unemployment rate, and obviously, we know that we have some work to do in Grand Rapids around employment in certain communities, but if we set that aside for a moment and say, we really want to just build teams that have a lot of talent, and as a business owner, we want to honor that talent and make sure that it’s being fostered and making sure that it’s being developed, and how to do that is to really be a mindful employer and have conversations with your staff; keep connected; keep creating a culture that they can show up as their full selves to work and bring with them what they need to bring with them and that you’re helping them foster their creativity and foster their loyalty, too, to your company and grow as a person and as an employee. So that is what the workshop today was about, and then we usually have workshops every month or every other month. All of this you would find on our website or on our Facebook page, but they are based on, frankly, the conversations we’re having with business owners in the community. Some of it’s driven by our B Corp businesses that say, hey, we’re seeing these trends, or our Local First membership; hey, we’re seeing these trends or these are the things we’d like to learn about.

Kristin: We’ve had even tours of facilities, and we’ve had so many different topics.

Hanna: Thank you, yeah. We had an electronic recycling. Valley City Electronics is a B Corp in the community, and they help businesses recycle their electronics, which is not something that a whole lot of people know about, but it’s this really wonderful service that we have here in town, and it’s also a place where you can go and get a used, refurbished laptop if you need to provide that for one of your stuff. There’s all these ways that they give back to the community, as well, but we use the data that we’re able to drive from the Quick Impact Assessment that we were talking about earlier, that short assessment. If you’d prefer to keep all of your information to yourself, you do not need to share the data with Local First or Good for Michigan, but if you want to be transparent about your impact, then you can share that with us, and we simply use that as an aggregate data collection so that we can help decide what these workshops are going to look like; where the gaps are; what our community needs in terms of education around these impact areas. Then we put the series together based on all of those factors. We’re currently actually working on our 2020 workshop series as we speak.

Kristin: Can’t wait to hear what you’ve got lined up! So B Corp, for those who don’t fully understand what it is, the short summary is, profit with a purpose. So it’s a way for a business like ours to be able to give back without having a nonprofit arm. Our passion is to help low income women, but we have to charge a living wage and cannot necessarily serve them as doulas, so we do a lot of community education, volunteering, giving money financially to organizations that support low-income women and families. Our diaper drive would be an example of that. So how would you, for those of our listeners and clients who have no idea what a B Corp is and why Gold Coast should be interested, can you help me fill them in?

Hanna: Absolutely. You know, I think those examples about Gold Coast sort of signaling — again, back to that signaling of values as a business. These are things that we’re seeing are really helping businesses grow their customer base. I mean, frankly, at the end of the day, a for-profit business needs to make money in order to exist. And the argument that we would present as an organization that advocates for B Corp certification is that walking out your values and really putting intentional effort towards not only documenting what you’re doing as a business but also verifying, having this third-party verified signal of, we’re doing this work – there is a return on that investment. There is financial growth and sustainability in that model, and we believe that B Corp is the most holistic measurement, the most holistic certification, out there that shows that not only are you as a business being a good steward to the environment, but you’re also treating your employees well, and you’re also giving back to the community. The standards are high. As a B Corp — as a consumer that maybe hasn’t heard of B Corp or as a consumer that is looking at all of the potential choices that I have when spending my money, regardless of whether o not I have very little or if I have a huge amount of money to spend, we make a decision every time we spend money. When I have additional information around, oh, this business is B Corp — that means to me that I’m spending my money in a place that matters, and that money is going to go back to my local community, or that money is going to go to help families and low-income women. That’s something that I’m very passionate about personally, and that’s how I’m going to vote with my dollar is I’m going to use my resources to push money into doing good in the world. This is something that, if you see the B Corp Certified seal on a business — for instance, when you go to your local grocery store and you see 7th Generation or Method, those are — like if you were going to be buying laundry detergent or something — you’ll see on the back that there’s a B Corp seal, and that’s something where you can think, okay, I’m buying a $10 jug of laundry detergent, but I know that there are certain environment standards around their brand, and their employees are being treated a certain kind of a way. Or a clothing brand; I know that whatever manufacturing standards this clothing brand is using, I can feel good about where this came from.

Kristin: Yeah, their sourcing is obviously good.

Hanna: Yeah, and again, the standards and the assessment itself generates based on what type of business it is, but you can be sure that that business has gone through something very vigorous and has jumped through a lot of hoops to maintain that certification, so it’s just a way to know that you’re making an impact with the money that you’re spending, and that’s something that resonates with me. I think that’s something that resonates with a growing number of consumers and business owners, because as a business owner, you also consume from other businesses. So to have that shared value statement, I think is really important.

Kristin: And certainly many of our clients are millennials, and I feel like millennials want to give their money to companies that are giving back and have a purpose and meaning beyond just your standard profit focus.

Hanna: Yeah. Again, a huge piece of what economic development is all about, and as an employee of Local First, I can say that local development and local economic development is something that’s important to us, and equitable economic development is something that’s really paramount to us. You’re right; the consumer statistics support what we’re saying, what you’re saying. Millennials and people who are coming up into wealth and coming into influence are making their decisions based on a lot of the values alignment. You’ll see that when you click on the news and there’s some sort of boycott here or there, or this business CEO makes a decision that negatively impacts their workers or the environment, and there’s a reaction to that in terms of their customer base. And so you’ll see that, regardless of where your personal values lie; you’ll see that decisions are being made based on those values of the business, and I think that’s happening more now. The statistics are supporting that that’s happening more now than it has in the past, so it’s becoming very valuable from a financial sustainability standpoint for businesses to signal those values and to put as much intentionality around how they’re showing up in the community and in the world as they possibly can.

Kristin: Right. And as far as our industry, we are the first birth-related business. We’re not a retail space; we don’t manufacture anything. We’re service, and the process was unique for us because we don’t have employees. We have subcontractors who are business owners of their own, so that part, too, was how do we really focus on being good for employees when we have two owners, my business partner Alyssa and myself, and then subcontractors? But we are good for them; we give them opportunities; we’ve done disability trainings that are optional for our team, as well as PRIDE has come in and did an LGBTQI training for us, and we’ve done Empathy with Healthcare Professionals through Mothership, so we’ve tried to use that overarching philosophy even though we don’t, at this point, have employees. Someday, I’m sure we will.

Hanna: And I think, too, because this movement — B Lab, the nonprofit that certifies B Corps, has been around for twelve years, I think, roughly, and the movement is growing, and it’s grown very quickly. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t encounter new business models. They’re out there working with them every day, so the cool thing about the assessment, the B Impact Assessment, is that it is always evolving. Even another layer of connection between Local First and Good for Michigan and B Lab is that, because we are that Be Local community for the state of Michigan — so B Lab is a global organization. B Corporation certification is a global movement. It’s not just North America; it’s not just the United States. It’s everywhere, which is wild to think about, and it’s wonderful to think the movement is that large, but as a Be Local in the state of Michigan, we do have a relationship with the folks that are helping to curate the assessment and how it evolves in North America, specifically, because a lot of the policies are based on the continent and based on place. So it does change in different areas, but we get to have conversations around what’s relevant here in our place. Culturally, what’s relevant in the United States, and we help inform how the assessment evolves a bit. So I expect that based on your experience with B Lab and how things went and how you had to work around the uniqueness of your model while also being very adamant in saying, this is something that really matters to Gold Coast and we want to make this work — having had that interaction will help them and help inform them on how to update the process around unique models like yours. There are very few healthcare-related B Corps, and as you can imagine because of the environmental impact of healthcare organizations and because of just the size of many of them and the uniqueness of the structure, it’s not an easy model. We’ve also had very few in the country. When I say we have very few, I mean in the country, in the United States. There are also very few banks for a similar reason. Very few banks are “locally owned,” and so those large national chain banks, the power is so disaggregated that it’s difficult to track all that data. So that kind of brings you back to those local businesses. They tend to have an easier time certifying as a B Corp just because of the way the decisions are made. That doesn’t mean that a chain couldn’t become a B Corp. Patagonia, for instance, is huge. You’re probably familiar with the brand Patagonia. Ben & Jerry’s, for instance. Both those huge brands are B Corps and have been for a long time, so you see — I can’t even imagine how difficult that certification is, right? But they put a lot of resources into it. It’s something that’s very valuable to them. It signals their brand identity. For an outdoor apparel company that sort of has that hipster vibe and it’s a little bit more high end, it kind of signals this, which makes sense. But then there’s the ice cream brand, too, and that’s something that anybody would grab off a shelf, and it doesn’t matter if I like hiking or if I prefer to Netflix and chill; whatever it is, but that’s a choice I’m making that I’m going to buy this ice cream instead of something generic coming from who knows who, what cows and whatever. The idea that the assessment is ever-changing and it’s always signaling to the community what’s relevant to that community and to our place is really important, I think.

Kristin: If people are interested in learning more, where should they go?

Hanna: The best place to get started is to head to our website or follow Good for Michigan on Instagram or Facebook. That’s going to connect you to our staff, and if you’re interested in taking the assessment, you can find it right there in the homepage for your business. It’s totally free and totally confidential. Or you can reach out to one of our staff and we can have a conversation with you a little bit more about what starting down the path would look like for your business. It can be as simple as just having a conversation, taking that Quick Impact Assessment and then stopping there, or moving all the way through to B Corp certification like Gold Coast has and 22 of our other good friends here in the community.

Kristin: Last year, I accidentally took the full B Corp assessment, thinking I was taking the Quick Impact, but that really helped me think about the process for this year. Thanks for coming on! We’ll have to chat again as we get further along in the process. I know there’s a big retreat that you don’t even need to be a B Corp business to attend — the B Corp Conference? Tell us about that!

Hanna: B Lab puts together a conference every year they call the Champion’s Retreat, and there are a couple different tracts of the retreat. There’s the tract that’s just for B Corp certified businesses. There’s a tract for Be Local communities, like ours, and then I believe there is a new tract around prospecting B Corps or businesses interested in learning more about the process and how it could be beneficial to them. This year, it’s in Los Angeles. Last year, it was in Louisiana. The year before that, it was in Toronto. It was in New Orleans, and then in Toronto. So it bops around all over the place.

Kristin: To warmer clients so Michiganders can get out somewhere with sunshine like LA!

Hanna: Yeah! I’m looking forward to it. I will be there and a few of our local B Corp CEOs and leaders will be there. It’s not an inexpensive thing to attend, but we will be able to go and we’ll be bringing back some learning from that and hopefully be plugging it into our programming for next year, and we’re excited to be able to continue doing the work. It’s a privilege to be able to get to work with businesses like yours and like the other businesses that are taking time out of their busy days and their passion to sort of give back and use their business as a force for good. It’s a tagline that we like to use because we believe that business can be used as a force for good. We’ve seen it. We know there are folks like you that are out there doing it, and we’d really like to hold up those businesses as an example and help others follow in their footsteps.

Kristin: Thanks for joining us today, Hanna!

What is a B Corp? Podcast Episode #86 Read More »

Stress Mastery: Podcast Episode #85

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / birth support, gold coast doulas, postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, postpartum recovery, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, sleep deprivation, stress and pregnancy, tandem nursing

Deb Timmerman, RN, DAIS, CSME speaks with us today about her new certification in Stress Mastery. What does that mean, you ask? It’s all about learning positive ways to handle stress and actually master it, instead of letting stress take over. Listen to see how this can help parents throughout pregnancy and postpartum. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on Itunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Hello, welcome to Ask the Doulas Podcast. I am Alyssa Veneklase, and I’m so excited to be talking to Deb Timmerman today. I haven’t seen you in so long!

Deb: Hi, Alyssa, it’s great to see you, too!

Alyssa: For a little while, we had you teaching a prenatal stress class here, and then life and business just got kind of in the way, and we haven’t scheduled any more, but I loved that class. You have so much good information about stress and how stress affects the body, but now you have some new certifications where you’re actually talking about how our bodies need stress to a certain extent; is that correct?

Deb: I am. So I think maybe the first place to start is, why the prenatal stress education? I’m a member of the Michigan ACEs Initiative Education team, and that’s not a formal name, but a couple years ago, Michigan got some grant money to bring the ACEs study — ACEs stands for Adverse Childhood Experiences study — and the consultants who were involved in that study, they actually set up a agreement for them in Michigan to use the ACEs science to see how we could change the way we’re delivering healthcare in Michigan. So the ACEs study is all about things that happen in childhood, like dysfunctional household, abuse, neglect, and you basically get a score for the ten questions that are on this little survey, and what they found was that the higher your score, so if these things happened to you from 0 to 18, the more likely you are to have emotional, physical, mental health issues as you age, and it even cuts time off your lifespan. As they began to do further studies after that, they found out that some how we deal with stress actually affects our genes and is passed on when you have a baby. That’s a long answer to that, but I think it’s really important because it’s where kids get their start, and if you don’t know about that, you can unknowingly pass on certain things to your kids.

Alyssa: You are in this high-stress environment while pregnant. It’s affecting your baby?

Deb: Yes, it is.

Alyssa: And I remember the movie. It was called Resilience?

Deb: It’s called Resilience, the science of stress, biology of hope. Or maybe that’s backwards; biology of stress; science of hope. Anyway, you can find it, Resilience, and there’s a trailer out. Yes, really interesting movie.

Alyssa: It is. Tell me about your new certifications and this new idea about stress.

Deb: Okay. I was an ACEs kid. Out of ten, my score was six, and when I learned about that particular piece of data in my life, it clarified everything for me.

Alyssa: And six is high?

Deb: Six is high, yes. Anything over four, it really increases your chances and your risk level. So I had a lot of health issues when I was in my 40s. I fell down a flight of stairs on my summer vacation, had a bad injury from that. But also was extremely heavy. I weighed 321 pounds, and I was on diabetes medication and high blood pressure pills, and I had a really high-stress job. And my family life was nuts. So I happened to go to a conference, a nursing conference, and heard about this, and it was like I had discovered something really critical. It was like the missing puzzle piece for me to figure out why I reacted or had the habits that I had, and as I started to travel down that road, I became really interested in sharing that information with people because I think it’s key. We spend a lot of money on the back side of health, taking care of chronic illness. My thought was, wow. This made a huge difference for me. What if I could share that information with folks?

Alyssa: And it’s probably worth noting that you are an RN?

Deb: I am an RN.

Alyssa: And that’s what you were doing in your previous life?

Deb: I did, and I didn’t know about that particular study at that time, and I wasn’t — I mean, they cover the stress response in nursing school, but not to the point with all the brain science and all of that. So in the last 20 years, they’ve made huge discoveries, and it’s super interesting.

Alyssa: When did you leave the nurse world?

Deb: Four years ago, I left the nurse world and started my own practice, but I had trained as a healing touch practitioner. In 2009, I started that, and I don’t remember when I finished, but I was never able to use that in a private practice, but I did in my buildings. I was a nurse manager in both of my previous jobs, and I found that when you teach people those self-care skills, it really changes your culture, and it made us care about each other. When we care about each other, we do better with our patients and the folks that we’re charged with caring for.

Alyssa: So you taught the other nurses or the patients?

Deb: Eventually, we did teach nurses healing touch at the hospice, which was my last job, but there are all kinds of other really cool interventions that you can do to build capacity for stress management, and those are the things that we worked on. You mentioned the stress certification. I’ve been a diplomate of the American Institute of Stress for a couple years, and you get that designation based on the amount of training that you’ve had regarding stress and how you’ve used that to help other people, and at the end of last year, this little thing came in my email box, that they were doing a beta for this stress mastery educator certification, and I got invited to submit an application. I was one of 40 people throughout the world that was chosen for beta one, and we worked with Heidi Hannah. She’s a Ph.D. researcher and stress mastery educator and teaches at Harvard, and she has all these other amazing professors and Ph.Ds. who share this information, so I was super interested and hoped I would get selected just because I thought it would be really neat to learn from these people. And it has been beyond my wildest expectations.

Alyssa: What is stress mastery?

Deb: We talk about stress management like we have to manage stress, but we actually need some stress in our life to help us grow, learn, and adapt. And when we master something, it means that we learn to dance with it in a positive way, and we use it to fuel positive change versus working on controlling what’s going on in our life. So I actually now help people build their capacity versus teaching them how to manage it.

Alyssa: Build my capacity to deal with stress instead of trying to reduce it or eliminate it?

Deb: Yeah. The way we do that is through evidence-based practices like the healing touch that I did. That was one thing I had under my belt, but since then, I’ve become a Tai Chi Easy Practice leader. That’s all about Qigong breathing and moving meditation. I’ve also gotten a certification in mindfulness and meditation. Breathing and some of those other key interventions that we can do on a daily basis throughout our day are really what helps stop that stress reaction and helps us build that capacity.

Alyssa: What if somebody is like you before with a really stressful job and a stressful home life? All these stressors: you don’t want people to try to eliminate some of that? You just want them to learn effective ways to cope?

Deb: Well, I don’t think that you really — coping means that we have to continue to deal with it, and yes, you do have to decide what you’re going to work on first, and there are certain areas of life that you’re going to have to make some decisions about and maybe pare down, or maybe that job is really horrible for your health and it’s time for you to move on. So we do validated stress assessments to figure out what areas of your life and out of sync and where your stress issues come from so that you can make good decisions. Oftentimes, when you’re in the midst of it, you just know that the world is falling down around you, and you don’t have any clarity about where that stress is coming from.

Alyssa: So how do you differ from a therapist or a counselor? Or do you also kind of work that in?

Deb: I would say I work in tandem with a therapist or a counselor. I’m not going to talk to you about all the things that happened to you in your childhood. I don’t get into all of that. We use the ACEs screen as a way to help you recognize how your stress patterns developed and then look at the different areas that are out of balance in your life, and then I’m going to teach you how to do a daily practice to help yourself not be so triggered. Triggers and tamers, I would look at; what are you stress triggers; how can we work with that; what kind of language are you using with yourself. That negative stuff breeds more negativity. How can we switch that around to help you have a more positive outlook? I do a lot with breathwork. It is one of the easiest ways to get that stress reaction to moderate and to get you into that rest and digest state so that you can think clearly. The way the brain is organized, the brain’s number one job, priority one, is safety. It’s always scanning, looking at the environment, trying to figure out how to keep you safe. The stress reaction is what keeps you safe. It gives you that juice, that bolt, of adrenaline to get to safety. But when you’re stuck in that feedback loop and that’s your whole life, you really can’t think and use the part of your brain for higher executive functioning because that feedback loop kind of gets in this little track. Do you know those people in your life, where they’re kind of stuck in that? Things are always falling down around them. Some of the exercises for building capacity are to be able to get that to shut off so that your brain can actually rewire and build new circuitry for that. That’s capacity-building.

Alyssa: Do you think everyone in general could benefit from some sort of practice?

Deb: Absolutely.

Alyssa: It’s not just the high anxiety, panic mode — I mean, I think we all feel it at some point, right? So even if you don’t have it on a daily basis, you’re noticing it — like you said, what are your triggers? So how do you — we talked a little bit about prenatal. What about a postpartum mom who has sleep deprivation working against her, as well, and then maybe new triggers that she didn’t even know existed before, who says I don’t have time to do Tai Chi with you. Are you crazy? I can’t do Tai Chi and meditate. How would you help a mom who came to you and said, what can you do for me?

Deb: I would tell a mom like that, what did you do to take care of yourself before, and what are you doing now? Typically, when a new baby comes in or there’s a child, they take first priority, and oftentimes, moms are trying to work and take care of this, and the demands are huge. So first we would walk through, what are you doing now? What did you love? What do you have time to do? How can we structure something so that you give yourself some attention every day? We’ve all heard that adage, you can’t give from an empty cup. That’s super important. Your child, from zero to three, learns from serve and return, and you need to have the energy to show up for your child every day so that that child learns to feel safe with you, cared for, and loved. If you don’t have that ability for your child, then you’re going to be suffering with problems further on down because your child develops anxiety, sleep issues, all those things.

Alyssa: And what do you mean, develops from serve and return?

Deb: Babies mimic what we do to them, the cooing, the eye movement, hugs, kisses. That’s serve and return. When you’re munching on your baby and nuzzling, that actually builds their neural circuitry and helps them feel safe. It’s a normal part of development. We used to think that babies got all their neurons and they were never going to get another one after they were born, and what you had, if you didn’t use, you would lose. There’s a little bit of truth to that. What gets paid attention to develops, and what doesn’t eventually kind of gets pruned away. There’s a process actually called pruning in the brain. But we know that neural circuitry actually develops now from our experiences and the things that happen in our world around us, so you want to create that loving, safe environment for your baby, and if you come home stressed out and you have nothing else left to give, are you doing the right thing for that child?

Alyssa: So zero to three is really, really important?

Deb: Very important!

Alyssa: Into my brain is popping this video I saw where a mom gives a sad face or a mad face and the baby mimics that. There’s an actual study, and I’m forgetting the name of it.

Deb: I don’t know that particular study, but the Center for Child Development at Harvard does a lot with that serve and return, and they actually have a campaign going right now. I’ll post that link on my website, and you can look at that if you’re interested. Lots of wonderful videos about how the brain develops and why that’s so important. Back to the mom: trying to figure out what she can do within her day to recharge her batteries is super important. Actually, I just met with a mom this morning. I think her little guy is four, and then she’s got one that’s maybe two. And she said that they just went through a period of stress where their family dog was sick, and they had some financial issues, and their older one started acting out. My question to her was, and what was going on in your household? She said it was chaos, and then she looked at me and goes, oh, crap, he saw that, didn’t he? So yes, that is exactly what happens. And their job is to build a relationship with you, so if you can’t be present, they’re going to act out because they’re trying to get their needs met.

Alyssa: They notice everything. My daughter is six, and nothing gets by her.

Deb: I think I saw a picture with her meditating someplace when you were off, and I thought, wow, Alyssa, that’s awesome. What a great skill to teach your child!

Alyssa: Well, it’s amazing even in schools now; I think they know the importance of this. They’re teaching yoga. They’re teaching mindfulness. They’re teaching meditation. And even if it’s only once a week — I never had that as a kid.

Deb: Well, and when it becomes part of what we do as our daily practice, it becomes easy. It becomes habit. So then it’s not like you have to spend all this time on self-care. You have it integrated into your day. That’s really my job; to teach you how to discover all these different practices that might speak to you because what you love isn’t necessarily going to be what someone else loves. Figuring that out, and then how do you work that into your day, and how do you sustain that for long term?

Alyssa: That’s the hard part, especially as a mother. My days are never the same, so I would love to be able to say, from 9:00 to 10:00 AM every day, I’m going to do this. Doesn’t happen. I mean, on top of that, I’m a business owner, too, right, so the day just gets more hairy. But having someone say, okay, well, let’s figure out something that can work for you. If you can’t do it at 9:00 today, let’s do it at 8:00.

Deb: The newest research that’s out there is that you should start your day with that practice before you even hop out of bed, and my favorite go-to is a guided meditation. It’s the thing that always made me feel really good, and it’s the thing that I teach because I love it. There’s lots of them on YouTube, and the cool thing about YouTube is you can pick the amount of time that you have. Maybe today you have five minutes, and tomorrow you have ten, but building that and scheduling that into your week. And then because there’s so many different ones, you could pick the rate of speech, the kind of voice. Like, I have one that I love at night. It’s an Aussie guy who does a sleep thing that’s maybe 26 minutes. I’m never awake by the end of that. I usually wake up the next day and it’s still frozen on my iPad. It’s wonderful.

Alyssa: For someone who has never experienced a guided meditation, you could choose some with or without talking? Or do they all have talking?

Deb: A guided meditation typically is something that helps cue you by voice to pay attention to your body in the here and now, and there’s all different kinds of scripts out there, but for someone who’s just beginning, I think a breathing thing, a couple minutes of breathing, is really good, and then after you get comfortable with that, you can explore. We know that the brain needs 10 to 20 minutes of that prime-timing in the morning, but truly, any time you can do 30 seconds or more with focused attention on that effort, it’s still beneficial to your body.

Alyssa: My Apple watch actually does that for me. It will tell me when to breathe.

Deb: Yeah, it has a breathing app. Perfect.

Alyssa: So that alone, if I do it — most of the time, I’m somewhere that I can’t do it and I just dismiss it.

Deb: If I was working with you to coach, I would talk about what you already have in place, and we would work on building that. How could you work that into your day, and really, even if you’re in a meeting, you could excuse yourself, go to the restroom or whatever, if you were that committed, or reset your watch or program it so that it works around your meetings. Those are all things that you can integrate into your day.

Alyssa: I love it.

Deb: It’s easy.

Alyssa: I mean, it is. We just find excuses of why we can’t or shouldn’t. I just feel like we’re always full of excuses.

Deb: Well, I think that’s what I’ve appreciated being part of this stress mastery educator process. Heidi is wonderful at being able to package things in a way that are easy and doable. Three steps to getting your stress mastered: assess, appreciate, adjust. Figure out where you’re out; appreciate what you can learn; and then those tools to adjust. And then the BFF model, so yeah, being your own best friend, but it really stands for breathe, feel, and focus. It’s really that simple. We make it difficult because we think it’s this thing that has to take a lot of time. What takes time is changing the habit, but once it gets integrated, then it’s easy.

Alyssa: And then coming full circle here, working that in to your daily practice and having your children see that as part of your practice, right?

Deb: Yes.

Alyssa: Because then they are like, oh, this is just something we do.

Deb: Yes. Last week, I actually taught teachers how to look at their own stress, a group of 20, to look at what was happening, and they got to choose the track that they wanted to be in, so at the start of the two days that we were together, why are you here? My mother in law is driving me crazy; I need to figure out how to get hold of my stressor. At the end of my day, I have nothing left for my family. Starting with the ACEs piece that we talked about and recognizing how they developed the way they look at stress. What were the patterns? What are their triggers? It was really beneficial for them. Many of them have ACE training otherwise in their classrooms, but they don’t know how to apply it to their own lives. I mentioned that puzzle piece for me. That was it. Okay, now that I understand how I developed it, now I can shift because I can appreciate how I got where I am and make those adjustments. It makes it a whole lot easier than someone saying, oh, I have to do these ten things today because I have to manage my stress. At the end of the two days, it was so fun to go around in the circle and to hear them say what they learned about their own issue and what their one takeaway was going to be and how they were going to integrate it. You can throw out everything you’ve done and say that you have to start with ten things, but the reality is, we don’t have time for that, and it needs to be graduated. You start with one thing, two things, three things, and pretty soon, you start to feel the shift, and then you’re motivated to do the rest of the work. So yes, they’ll go back and model that, hopefully, for their students.

Alyssa: For their classroom, yeah.

Deb: I taught some interventions, some Tai Chi interventions, moving meditation, breathwork, short meditations. You don’t have to come up with all the stuff on your own. There are tons of resources out there. My job is to just share those resources with you and have you pick what you want.

Alyssa: Tell us how people find you. I know you have a website.

Deb: Yes, and you can follow me on Facebook. Deb Timmerman is my name. I’m on LinkedIn. Same thing, Deb Timmerman, RN. And then on my website.

Alyssa: And people can find you there?

Deb: They can find me there.

Alyssa: Ask questions?

Deb: Ask questions!

Alyssa: And set up a consult?

Deb: Yep, sure can!

Alyssa: Is it just kind of like booking an appointment? And what do appointments look like — 30 minutes, 60 minutes, 20 minutes?

Deb: I typically offer an assessment or at least a meet and greet first to find out if we’re even compatible in working together. That’s usually a 30- or 45-minute, either online; we can do a Zoom call, or we can meet in person if you’re local over coffee, and finding out what your goals are. What is it you hope to learn? Why did you call me? What’s your reason? What’s your motivation? And then I would recommend, based on that appointment, what I thought was a good strategy for us and how long that might take and what that would cost, and then we would work together.

Alyssa: Excellent. Are you covered by insurance or not?

Deb: We are not at this point covered by insurance, but I think that’s going to change because there is a big shift with all this ACEs movement, and they’re all getting on board. Yeah, but in terms of investment, I think — my job isn’t to stick around forever. It’s to give you those tools so that you can go on your own, and if you need a little check-up now and again, that’s easy to do. We offer all kinds of online resources for people, and a podcast. There are medications on there that you can do.

Alyssa: What’s your podcast called?

Deb: It’s called Mindful Moments.

Alyssa: How fitting!

Deb: Those podcasts, there’s always a little nugget of information. Usually, they’re short, 7 to 8 minutes, but there’s a couple that are 20, like if you need a longer relaxation and have time.

Alyssa: I will have to look it up myself! Thanks for sharing!

Stress Mastery: Podcast Episode #85 Read More »

Preparing Your Body For Pregnancy: Podcast Episode #84

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, high-risk pregnancy, postpartum depression, postpartum doulas, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, pregnant

Dr. Nave now works with queens through her virtual practice Hormonal Balance.
We talk this time about how a woman can prepare her body for pregnancy. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Hello! Welcome to another episode of Ask the Doulas Podcast. You have Kristin and Alyssa here today, and we are excited to be back with Dr. Nave, the naturopathic doctor at Health for Life GR.

Dr. Nave: Thanks for having me again!

Alyssa: Thanks for coming again! Last time, we had an amazing conversation about a woman’s cycle, and today, we want to talk about actually preparing your body for pregnancy. What do you want to say?

Dr. Nave: Well, that ideally, we would start a year ahead.

Alyssa: One year ahead?

Dr. Nave: One year ahead.

Kristin: Does that mean they should be off birth control one year ahead, or would you advice getting off of an IUD or birth control pills in advance of that year? That’s my question because that’s something that is commonly asked.

Dr. Nave: That’s a great question. Even though ideally I say a year, if a woman wanted to, say, get pregnant in less than a year, then I would suggest, if she’s coming off of an IUD that has hormones in it or an oral contraceptive, to stop taking it at least three months before starting to try to conceive. That’s because the oral contraceptive and the IUD with hormones is basically producing the hormones that your body should be responsible for making, and what women often find is that once they stop using those — because, basically, it’s suppressing the body’s own production of hormones. She’ll find that she doesn’t have a period for an extended period of time, and I would also want her to detox her body and make sure that she’s pooping regularly, that her hormones are being made at an optimal level, and basically establishing what the normal and optimal cycle should look like.

Alyssa: So if you’re preparing your body for a year, then that means you can stop at three months? So the three months is just a part of the year? Twelve months ahead of time of when you would ideally like to be pregnant, you’re going to talk about what to do; but then three months before, minimum, is when you should get off a hormonal birth control pill or IUD?

Dr. Nave: Yes, because it gives your body time to normalize your cycle and it prepares your body to actually hold a baby so that it can grow.

Alyssa: So then what do we start doing at twelve months out

Dr. Nave: It’s basically a multifactorial approach. It’s stopping the things that interfere with your hormones, like oral contraceptives or getting the IUD removed. Also cleaning up her environment, so skin care products, household items, household cleaning supplies, being more environmentally aware of the things that she’s using, the foods that she’s placing into her body.

Kristin: If she’s coloring her hair and things like that?

Dr. Nave: Right, if she’s coloring her hair, nail polish, things like that. And then we would also want to address nutrition. A lot of the foods that are really accessible, like going to fast food or going to a restaurant, are foods that promote inflammation. They tend to be higher in trans fats and refined sugars, which are all shown to increase inflammatory products in the body. We want to reduce that by making sure that the woman is eating more whole foods. When I say whole foods, I mean from the earth; no one processed it. If you’re getting it frozen, that’s fine too, as long as someone didn’t already make it into a meal, so that you have more control and autonomy over what is being placed into your body.

Alyssa: What does inflammation do to affect fertility?

Dr. Nave: With inflammation, we have more cortisol. We have dysregulation of blood sugar. We have greater likelihood of mental and emotional disorders. It wreaks havoc on us.

Alyssa: It’s a lot of what we talked about last time with the cycles; if you’re not having a regular period, your cortisol levels could be too high, and that disrupts everything else?

Dr. Nave: Right.

Alyssa: And inflammation kind of does the same thing to your body?

Dr. Nave: Right, and things that can influence inflammation is not just the food that you eat, but being in a constant high stress environment and not managing that effectively or not having tools to really take care of yourself and having self-care. Self-care is not selfish the way that people typically think of it as being, but more so, it’s nurturing. Nurturing of yourself. Think of the year leading up to pregnancy as rediscovering yourself, as reconnecting to who you are, and getting in the mode of, “I am ready to carry a baby to full term. I am ready to add a new life to my life.” It’s getting connected to that. Also processing your past traumas. Mental and emotional health is absolutely important with regards to getting ready to conceive. Ideally, I wouldn’t want someone to be seeing conception as a solution to a relational issue because it probably won’t be, and it will probably exacerbate a lot of those things. So during that year leading up, it’s dealing with your past traumas, whether they be related to a miscarriage previously; processing what happened and how it affected you, not just trucking along to get pregnant again, but really fully processing it. Not necessarily living in it, but not pushing your emotions aside because they are valid. Whatever you haven’t dealt with — and this is not guilt any woman by any means — but whatever we haven’t dealt with, that influences the baby. That influences the baby’s risk for depression and anxiety. It influences the genes and their susceptibility to different types of conditions. In that year, by you taking care of yourself, you’re taking care of that baby in advance, as well.

Alyssa: The baby you haven’t even had yet?

Dr. Nave: The baby you haven’t even had yet; you haven’t even conceived yet.

Kristin: So what if a woman is a constant dieter? How do you handle women who are, say, on a fad diet, if they are wanting to conceive?

Dr. Nave: I really like the book Intuitive Eating. It’s written by two dieticians, and before mindfulness eating was a thing, these two dieticians came together, and they were like, diets don’t work. Diets are a lie, and I completely agree with that. If you think that, oh, I don’t have enough will power — you’re not the one failing. The diet is failing you, because they weren’t built to work. They’re not sustainable, at least the diets that people often purport. Now, I would like to reclaim the term diet, because diet just means eating.

Alyssa: What you’re eating, right?

Dr. Nave: Right, right. And so if you view your diet, if you view your food, as nourishing yourself, as honoring yourself, you fully immerse yourself in the experience of eating, like smelling the food. You eat with your eyes first, so viewing it; it’s appetizing. You smell it; you taste it. You savor the textures that are in your mouth and the flavors that are bursting on your tongue and really immerse yourself in that and sit in that and be mindful. Then you have a greater connection to yourself. You are then more apt to tell when something isn’t going well. If a woman is a fad dieter or is using food as a coping mechanism, we would then assess what is food giving you that you are not at this time receiving. And so talking about that, having her read the Intuitive Eating book, because it goes through what type of eater are you, and reconnecting yourself to that intuitive eater, because as children — have you ever watched children eat? They do not sit. They get up, they eat what they want, and then they go back around and play. At some point, we lose that ability to tell when we’re hungry or when we’re craving something and really honoring that, and intuitive eating is all about getting back to that. SO I would definitely work with her and address, when did this first start? What is it giving you? What is it not giving you? What is your motivation for doing things in this way? Because what is encouraged by the media as what a healthy weight looks like is very cookie cutter, and I’m all about individualized care. If you look at someone’s bone frame and they’re really thin and they have big bones and they look sick or they don’t feel well, that’s not good.

Kristin: And then fitness is obviously a big question many of my birth doulas clients have. What should they do in preparation? If I was with them for the first delivery and then they want to conceive again, what would be an acceptable form of fitness as you’re trying to conceive? What should you do to get your body ready for birth and postpartum time?

Dr. Nave: If you’re already exercising, just maintain it. Don’t go overboard. Don’t become sedentary. Moving your body at least ten minutes per day — ideally, thirty minutes, but that thirty minutes doesn’t have to be in one chunk. Being consistent is more important than doing things really hard and really intense in a short period of time, so if she’s already exercising, just keep doing it. You’re doing great, Mom. Now, if she’s excessively exercising, that could be another thing that’s causing amenorrhea.

Alyssa: Yeah, I’ve had friends who have been extreme athletes who just don’t get their period.

Dr. Nave: Right, because all the hormones are being turned into something else as opposed to getting turned into progesterone and having adequate levels of estrogen so that you can bleed. And I know some women are, like, oh, I didn’t bleed for a really long time and I’m so happy, but…

Alyssa: Our bodies do this for a reason, right? It needs to happen.

Dr. Nave: Right, it needs to happen. When you shed the old — think of it as shedding the old. It’s a new month; I’m shedding the old from last month.

Alyssa: It’s like a natural cleaning, almost. It’s like a detoxifying — yeah, just — it seems like anything else that stores up in your body that needs to be shed can create toxic levels of something.

Dr. Nave: Right, absolutely. It can create adverse symptoms. Having too much estrogen is not the best thing in the world. Last time, we talked about estrogen dominance and how that can influence having more PMS symptoms like bloating, for instance, and being more weepy on your period. If you’re not having your period, then you’re basically reabsorbing the estrogen and that could by your PMS looks that way. But I digress.

Alyssa: I have one question before we move on to whatever you want to talk about next. Even with, like, what we’re putting on our body and our environment — so there are things that are called hormone disruptors, things that will disrupt your hormones, right, like in the products that we’re putting in and on our body?

Dr. Nave: Yes.

Alyssa: What do you know about that?

Dr. Nave: Those are parabens or phthalates. They’re actually made from crude oil, which is refined and you can get parabens and phthalates. You get mineral oil from it; you get the gas that you put in your car from it. All of these things come from this product. Why parabens and phthalates are an issue is that, basically, they act like estrogens. Then that can be part of the estrogen dominance. It can also affect increased risk for breast cancer. It can affect mental and emotional health because remember I said that estrogen can increase weepiness or having a lower mood on your period. Ovarian cancer; you have an increased risk for that because it’s an exogenous estrogen. It acts like estrogen; technically it’s not estrogen, but our bodies respond to it in that way, which can also lead to extra weight. On the topic of weight, if you want to lose weight before getting pregnant, you would want to do that in a year before trying to conceive because with exposures to things like parabens or phthalates, which — technically, they’re solvents, so you would usually pee them out; however, if you have higher levels of them or if you’re being continuously exposed to it, our bodies store it as fat. Then, when you’re trying to lose the weight, you’re releasing it back into your bloodstream, which can create symptoms like headaches or feeling really lethargic when trying to work out. It’s not necessarily because you’re working too hard, but it could because your body is working on detoxifying or biotransforming these things so that they’re no longer toxic to you so you can pee it out and poop it out.

Alyssa: So if you need to lose weight, that needs to happen before this twelve-month timeframe of detoxing before you get pregnant?

Dr. Nave: It can happen in that twelve months. You can start it before that because then you don’t have as much to do during the twelve months.

Alyssa: But it should be one of the things that you’re thinking about a year ahead of time?

Dr. Nave: Yes, because there are so many things that we use on a daily basis that, if we really thought about them, I think most of us would be scared to leave our homes, but we have to live, you know. We need things in order to live efficiently and not work as slow, I guess.

Alyssa: Well, if you think about the chairs we’re sitting on. These are as eco-friendly as we could find, but the majority of them — there’s sprays on everything. I looked at the new pajamas I got my daughter, and it said the flame retardant — it said that I can’t wash it in soap because the flame retardant will come off. I was like, no. I’m washing it. I’m washing all the flame retardant off, actually. But you don’t think about that. My daughter needs a new nightgown. You buy her a nightgown, and it’s covered in a chemical so that it doesn’t go into flames.

Dr. Nave: Yeah. Another of the things that the woman can do to help get herself ready before even consulting with a physician is that, with regards to environment medicine, opting to eat the dirty dozen — you can look at www.ewg.com, so that’s the Environmental Working Group. The release the dirty dozen each year, and these are the fruits and vegetables that are the most heavily sprayed. Opting to eat those things in season and organic, as opposed to nonorganic, and what that will do for you is — pesticides have solvents, which parabens and phthalates are a type of solvent, so they have some of those components to them. By opting for organic fruits and vegetables that are on that dirty dozen, you don’t have to do all your fruits and vegetables organic. Preferably, if they’re thin-skinned, like if you eat the skin of it, like tomatoes and strawberries and berries, you would want to opt for organic, but if not, at least the dirty dozen. Make sure those fruits and vegetables are organic because those pesticides have the endocrine disruptors. They’re things that affect your estrogen and your progesterone, and it’s not just those things it affects but your overall well-being.

Alyssa: So because it’s disrupting hormones, it can affect your ability to get pregnant, but let’s say even while doing all this, you get pregnant. It’s essentially affecting, again, your growing baby?

Dr. Nave: Yes.

Alyssa: Because you’re disrupting the hormones that the baby is using to grow?

Dr. Nave: Yes. So if you’re already pregnant, don’t freak out. Don’t try to lose weight. That’s one, because you’re pregnant, so your body is trying to use all the energy to make baby, as well as the fact that we don’t want to release any of the stored toxins in your fat to the baby. What you can do is, if you’re going to eat fish, make sure it’s not one that’s high in mercury. Avoiding things like swordfish, and if you’re going to eat tuna, make sure that — I think it’s albacore tuna, but don’t quote me on that — you can look at the Environmental Working Group, and there are other resources as well that list out the fish that are lowest in mercury. Looking at your skin care products and, as much as you can and as much as is possible, avoiding shampoos and skin care products that have parabens or phthalates or sulfates in them. It’s also because sulfates rub down your skin and it’s not as moisturizing. We want you to look glowing and magnificent! You can avoid those things in your skin care products and your household items and the food that you eat.

Kristin: So cleaning products, obviously, as well?

Dr. Nave: Yes, cleaning products. And if anything has any fumes and you have to spray it, make sure that you have all the windows and doors open so it can air out. If you get your clothes dry-cleaned and you have a garage, leaving them in the garage to off-gas before taking them into your house. If you don’t have a garage, if you have them in a room where you can remove the plastic and open the door and let them air out so that you’re not exposing yourself to those fumes. Just do that. And then after the fact, then we can address those things then.

Kristin: And then they would meet with you for a consultation preconception to try to get their body as healthy as possible?

Dr. Nave: Yeah, and even if she is already pregnant, what can we do to maintain the pregnancy while also minimizing her exposure to these environmental toxins. And her addressing her mental health during that time, if she hasn’t already started that process. Is she eating adequate amount of calories? Since we’re on the topic of nutrition, prenatal vitamins — you would start that at a year out. A year ahead of time.

Kristin: And, obviously, food-based versus the generic that you get at the normal doctor’s office?

Alyssa: Yeah, you know, you get free prenatals at the pharmacy but they’re basically junk.

Dr. Nave: We have very good-quality ones as naturopathic doctors, and I think DOs also have really high-quality ones, as well.

Alyssa: So for somebody who can’t afford it, what are those over-the-counter free prenatals doing? Are they doing any good?

Dr. Nave: Yes, because they have folate and they have an adequate number of B vitamins. It’s like a multi that’s specifically geared towards not only the mother’s health but also making sure that the baby can develop well. Folate is the one that I’m most thinking about at this present time because folate is important for neural development, like the spinal cord. What happens if there is insufficient or no folate is that the neural tube doesn’t close, and then that can cause spina bifida, which is a preventable condition if the mom is getting adequate vitamins. Folate is B9.

Alyssa: Oh, folate is a B vitamin?

Dr. Nave: Yeah, it’s a B vitamin, so it’s a water-soluble vitamin that’s very important for the neural tube development.

Alyssa: So my best friend found out she has this, and what’s the name — your body can’t absorb folate.

Dr. Nave: Oh, right. I know what you’re talking about.

Alyssa: So she actually had a really hard time getting pregnant because she was taking too much folic acid. But if you don’t know you have this, then…

Dr. Nave: If you don’t know you have it, if possible, choosing a supplement that has methylated B vitamins, so methyl folate as opposed to hydroxylated folate is better. What Alyssa was talking about is call MTHFR. It’s methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase, so that’s an enzyme that basically, when you take in folate, for most people, they can then attach a methyl group to it, which makes it bioactive. There’s this cycle that you need methylation to occur in order to make the B vitamins active, which is important for making your red bloods cells, which is important for energy production, which is important for getting energy from your food. B vitamins — I think of them as, like, the power house side kick. Almost every enzyme in the body requires B vitamins. I have this lovely chart right here that shows the citric acid pathway, basically the utilizing our food to make energy pathway, and almost every single step in here requires two or three different types of B vitamins. There are even B vitamins that are enzymes themselves and carry things along.

Alyssa: You love B vitamins!

Kristin: So the free prenatals are helpful, just not…

Alyssa: It’s better than nothing?

Dr. Nave: Yes, it’s better than nothing, but if possible, there are different brands that we use as naturopathic doctors that you can probably try to get on Amazon, like Ortho Molecular or Integrative Therapeutic Initiative, I think is the name of it, ITI. SO I know those are pharmaceutical-grade, and when I say that, I mean that they have enough of the vitamin. It’s beyond the recommended dose, like what the government says this is minimally what you need, and it’s of good therapeutic value, so we know that it will do what it says it’s going to do. They tend to have more of the methylated form, so whether the mother has a different time methylating her B vitamins, or if she doesn’t, it takes out more work for the body to do so then it can go right to where it needs to go.

Alyssa: That’s fascinating! Is there anything we didn’t touch on?

Dr. Nave: I don’t think so. We talked about environment medicine and reducing your exposure. We talked about nutrition and making sure you’re getting enough calories. Oh — fish oil, vitamin D3, specifically, vitamin D3, because that’s the active form, and prenatal vitamins with regard to eating whole foods.

Kristin: We don’t get enough vitamin D in Michigan anyway, and I know that — and, again, I don’t have a medical background, but I know a lot of research on preeclampsia shows a lack of vitamin D3.

Dr. Nave: Yes. Another thing about preeclampsia is calcium and magnesium. If a woman starts to experience preeclampsia, making sure that — sometimes, it’s due to an electrolyte imbalance and not getting enough protein, so we would want to look at how much protein is she getting. The ratio that we usually look for is at least 0.8 to 1 gram of protein per kilogram of weight, so however many pounds you weight, divide your weight by 2.2, and that tells you how many kilograms, and then it’s 0.8 to 1 gram per that number that she should be getting. If she’s getting adequate protein and has enough calcium and magnesium, then she shouldn’t get preeclampsia. If she has a history of hypertension, making sure we’re managing that, whether naturally or if she’s taking medication, as long as it’s not one that would interfere with conception, would help to prevent it from happening. But even if a woman experiences preeclampsia, it doesn’t automatically mean that she will get eclampsia because we can still, at that point in time, address what’s going on.

Alyssa: Right. Well, thank you so much. I just feel like we could keep going and going. You probably have 80 other topics we could talk about. We’ll just have you back once a week!

Dr. Nave: Oh, I’d be down for that!

Alyssa: We’ll set up a couple more! Well, tell our listeners where to find you if they want to reach out.

Dr. Nave: You can find me at our website, and you can find me on Instagram, @drgaynelnavend, and I’m also on Facebook at the same handle.

Alyssa: Great! Thanks again!

Preparing Your Body For Pregnancy: Podcast Episode #84 Read More »

Maddie’s Birth Story: Podcast Episode #83

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Birth, Doulas, HypnoBirthing / Alyssa Veneklase / birth doula, birth story, birth support, breastfeeding, gold coast doulas, Hypnobirthing, labor and delivery, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, pregnant, self-hypnosis

Our listeners love hearing a positive birth story. Today Maddie, a previous HypnoBirthing and Birth client, tells us all about her labor and delivery as well as her experience in the hospital right after having her baby. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, and I’m here today with my former birth client, Maddie, and we’re here to talk about her personal birth story. Welcome, Maddie!

Maddie: Thank you. I’m glad to be here!

Kristin: So we talked a little bit about why you chose HypnoBirthing in a previous podcast, so tell us about your birth story. How did you know you were in labor? Give us all the details. I was lucky to be there!

Maddie: Yes, it was wonderful to have you there! I went into work on a Wednesday, and I was due July 18th, and it was July 13th. For some reason, I just kind of thought, oh, I’ll know. It’s not going to happen yet. I went to work; I had a normally-scheduled weekly appointment with my midwife. I went at 10:30, and I had been kind of grouchy all day and just felt a little off but did not think about it at all. I’d been having practice labor for a few weeks, so I really wasn’t noticing anything different. I went to my appointment and sat down, and she said, how are you feeling? And then I started bawling. I said, “I just feel so confused by my body!” And she was like, well, let’s just take a look. How about we just take a look, and so she did an exam, and she said, girl, you’re six to seven centimeters! And I was like, what?! And I started crying again, and then I said, but what does that mean? Even though I’d been through HypnoBirthing; I knew what it meant, but it was just so unexpected. I was so far along already. She was fantastic; she was so wonderful, and she said, well, it means you’re going to have a baby today. Go have some lunch. So I called my husband. He was working, and I told him I was six to seven centimeters, and he said, well, what does that mean? And I called my mom who was coming, and she said, but wait; what does that mean? So we were all pretty taken off guard because it wasn’t like I had woken up and said, oh, you know, I think something’s happening. No one was really prepared. Hey, I’m six to seven centimeters.

Kristin: Right, I couldn’t believe it when I got the call. I was like, what?!

Maddie: Yeah! I went and got some lunch and drove myself to the hospital and parked on the fifth floor of the parking structure and waddled in. You showed up; you were the first one, and we went up to the room. Fortunately, since I’d already had the exam, I didn’t have to go through and wait for 20 minutes for them to monitor me or anything.

Kristin: That’s so nice to skip triage and go right up.

Maddie: We went up the room, and it was not bad for a really long time. You know, my body was doing a lot of the work as far as maybe turning the baby or getting more effaced. Having done HypnoBirthing, I knew that dilation is not the only factor that you need to pay attention to, so I was able to just kind of relax and say all right, it’s going to happen when it happens. You were there; you did a lot of hip squeezes for me, which was really fantastic for that counter pressure, because I was having back labor. My husband is not able to do those with his wrists, so that made a huge, huge difference. And we just kind of hung out, and I listened to my HypnoBirthing, and I listened to some relaxing music. My appointment was at 10:30, and he wasn’t born until 10:45, so it was a while, but…

Kristin: But for a first-time mom, it was pretty quick, and it’s one of the few calls I get in the daytime hours. Most of the time, I get a call at 2:00 AM or 11:00 PM.

Maddie: Right! Things started to get ramped up some, and then I started noticing it more, but none of it was overwhelming. One thing that we talked about in HypnoBirthing was breaking the amniotic sac. That’s protection for baby, so I didn’t want to do that; didn’t really feel like there was any reason to. The contractions really weren’t bad. The surges weren’t overly painful or overwhelming, and so my midwife worked her full day at the office and then came in. She checked me again quite a bit later, and then she did accidentally break the amniotic sac, and then after that, things got pretty intense.

Kristin: Yeah, that can intensify a lot!

Maddie: Yeah! I think from the time my water broke until the baby was born was about 2 hours and 45 minutes, so doable. I spent a lot of the time in the tub, and that felt really great. My husband was able to just use the hand shower, and having that, the different points of pressure, I think kind of helps take your mind off of it to some extent. The water makes it a little less intense. I really liked to be in there. Then we got out, she said she wanted to check me, and I was Group B Strep positive, so they wanted to do another round of antibiotics. That had been one thing that, when I found out, I was super devastated, because I wanted to labor at home for as long as possible. I didn’t want to have to come in before six centimeters, and we had me the plan that if I came in and I wasn’t six centimeters, I didn’t want to know what I was at. But I would just not go home. You could know; my husband could know, and then we could make the decision. Let’s walk around a little bit or just not be admitted. But because I was already six to seven centimeters, when I was checked, we went right in after I got lunch. We went right in and got admitted, so I was able to get those antibiotics in. Once she checked me again and broke my water, it got intense. It was really just — I felt very internal. You know, it was not a lot of talking, and it was — I think right after it broke, I kind of got to that point where I was like, oh, no. I can’t do this!

Kristin: Which most women go through with unmedicated births. Transition!

Maddie: Right. However, as soon as I had that thought — I have a distinct recollection of, oh, no, I can’t do this. No, wait – that means I’m really close. That means I can do this. And so then I really tried to just focus on my breathing, because we’d talked about that and learned and practiced about getting those breaths in. And I did end up struggling with that, but having you, having my husband, having my midwife all saying, all right, this is the birth you prepared for. You can do this. Just take those big breaths. Breathing and focusing on those voices helped me to kind of get back on track, get it under control. We tried a lot of positions for delivery, which that was one big thing. I had changed providers pretty early on from an OB who said you’re only allowed to birth on your back, and I said, I want the freedom to do whatever position feels comfortable for me and for my baby and my body. And so I ended up doing a lot of my laboring and pushing leaning over the back of the bed on my knees, and that definitely felt like the best position for me. We tried on the side with the peanut ball.

Kristin: I remember trying a lot of different positions, and it’s all about listening to your body.

Maddie: Right, and my body was saying, this does not feel good! Don’t do that! So I spent a lot of time there, and then I got to a point where I just remember feeling so hot and just, you know, put as many ice-cold washcloths on me as possible. I was so hot, but I was just kind of getting right there to the end. It was right at the end, and then my midwife had said, okay, I want to check you after this next surge, and so I want you to roll over. And I already knew I was crowning, but I couldn’t really explain it at that point. I’m like, no, no. He’s there.

Kristin: Right. I feel him!

Maddie: He’s right there! So I did end up flipping over, and that was okay on my back, and that was fine. What was helpful was the nurse that was there; she had said, do you want a mirror? And I had said no, no, I don’t want a mirror. And then she said to reach down and feel your baby. When I could feel — he’s right there. More than just oh, I feel it with my body, but actually touching it with your hand — he’s almost here! That kind of gives you a little reinvigoration. I’m right there at the end! So I was able to catch my baby and put him right on me and do optimal cord clamping. It was fantastic, just beautiful. He was born on July 13th at 10:45 PM, so about 12 hours from when I figured out that I was in labor until he was born. And it was being just relaxed about the whole process and recognizing it’s going to happen when it happens, and your body is going to do it, and trusting your body.

Kristin: Exactly, trusting your baby and your connection with your own body and your baby, because it’s the two of you working together along with, of course, your partner and support team.

Maddie: The very first thing I ended up saying after Charlie came out was, good job, buddy! He was a part of it, too.

Kristin: Exactly, babies work so hard! They have to turn in the canal and — yeah, they’re exhausted. You’re exhausted.

Maddie: Exactly, there’s a lot happening. It was beautiful!

Kristin: It really was. It was an honor to support you. How did it go with the skin-to-skin time and breastfeeding as a first time mom? Let’s talk about some of that and how you felt bonding in that first golden hour.

Maddie: That was fantastic that I could do skin-to-skin right away. I didn’t feel pressured to stop. That was super important. I did have some postpartum bleeding, and so while all of that was being taken care, not being separated from my baby was so big so I could just focus on him. That part was wonderful. We got all cleaned up. The breastfeeding definitely was more difficult. I have one side that’s inverted normally, and so baby really struggled to latch on that side, but he also struggled on the other side. I was fortunate that Spectrum has IBCLCs on staff 24 hours a day, and so they were able to come in at 3:00 AM and focus on what’s going on, why is baby not latching. We did end up using a nipple shield, and that was pretty demoralizing for a while. We used it until six weeks, and I went to some Le Leche League meetings and things like that. It really was important to have those contacts ahead of time and know where the meetings are; know when the meetings are; know an IBCLC that’s recommended in case you are having those issues so you’re not having to try to figure that out when you’re exhausted and you’re feeling downtrodden and things aren’t working. It’s really hard to try to find that when you’re already struggling. So having figured that out ahead of time, I was able to go to a meeting, go meet with a lactation consultant again. We did stick with it, and then at six weeks, which is pretty common, he just kind of got it. We got in the tub where it was warm and kind of womb-like and got rid of the nipple shield, and it worked.

Kristin: That’s amazing that you were so persistent and it paid off!

Maddie: Yes! We just weaned at 2 years and 11 months.

Kristin: Oh, congrats!

Maddie: Yes, that was exciting. We had a fantastic nursing journey. If you really stick with it and arm yourself with that support system, you can do it. I feel like so many women don’t have that support system. My mom nursed; my sisters nursed all of their children. Having that support system makes a huge, huge, huge difference.

Kristin: Yeah, and like you said, just taking advantage of lactation while you’re in the hospital, even for moms who have a great first latch, to just have someone see your holds and answer any questions you might have — it’s a resource that I highly recommend anyone take advantage of, if they’re birthing in the hospital, of course.

Maddie: Right. That was important that they did come in. They came multiple times to check on us and did work on holds and really understanding, you know, here’s another technique. Here’s another hold to try if this one isn’t working, so you have those skills in your toolbox to pull out. Okay, this isn’t working; let’s try this. That definitely was helpful for me, as well.

Kristin: Great! Well, thanks for sharing your story! Do you have any parting words?

Maddie: I would just say to do your research. It’s easy to just say that my doctor is going to do what’s best for me. This is what happens. This is how it goes. But it doesn’t have to be. You can be such an advocate for yourself, and you can surround yourself with other people to advocate for you so that you can get the type of birth that you want so that you have the support that you need. Even if you have a partner that’s not able to be there in the way that you need, you can get a doula. You can have a midwife who births in the hospital. It’s really not different. I know people that really think, oh, they’re not a doctor. That’s totally different. Just really doing your research and asking other moms who have been through it. Moms are very willing, good or bad, to give you their advice, so get as much information as you can so that you can make your own informed decisions.

Kristin: Yes! Thank you for sharing your story because other women want to hear personal, especially positive, stories. I feel like when it comes to birth, you here the dramatic or tragic. Everyone likes to tell negative stories, and there aren’t enough positive, and a lot of women in pregnancy want to surround themselves with light and positivity. We really appreciate you coming in! Thanks so much, Maddie. Thank you, everyone, for tuning into our podcast. Remember, these moments are golden.

Maddie’s Birth Story: Podcast Episode #83 Read More »

Understanding Your Cycle: Podcast Episode #82

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Pregnancy / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, high-risk pregnancy, postpartum, postpartum recovery, pregnancy, pregnancy insomnia, pregnancy podcast, pregnant, sleeping during pregnancy

Dr. Nave now works with queens through her virtual practice Hormonal Balance. She talks with us today about a woman’s monthly cycle. What’s “normal”? What if you don’t get a period at all? Is PMS a real thing? You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Hello, welcome to Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa, and I’m here with Kristin. Our guest today is Dr. Nave, who is a naturopathic doctor at Health for Life Grand Rapids.

Dr. Nave: Hi!

Alyssa: We were excited to meet you – what was it, a few weeks ago? We presented to your team, and you – I was really intrigued. Tell everyone what you specialize in as an ND, and then they’ll know why I wanted to talk to you so bad.

Dr. Nave: I am especially excited about assisting women to reconnect to their identities, and the way in which I do that is by really looking at their hormones, their mental health, their physical health, and other aspects of their life.

Alyssa: Do you only work with women?

Dr. Nave: No, I do not, but my passion is women.

Alyssa: So today you’re going to talk about cycles, and I know you have a couple specific thing about a woman’s cycle that you want to talk about, so explain what those are, and then let’s just dive in.

Dr. Nave: Okay. I want to talk about what a typical cycle should look like, so this is how your cycle should look if nothing is going wrong. And then we’ll transition to talking about PCOS and what is going on with that.

Alyssa: And what does PCOS stand for?

Dr. Nave: PCOS is polycystic ovarian syndrome. In medical terminology, a syndrome just means a cluster of symptoms that fit this particular diagnosis, and so with PCOS, what’s happening is that the woman isn’t bleeding or she has skipped periods, and that is due to low progesterone, which is an important hormone that allows the endometrial lining, basically, in the uterus so that implantation of the fertilized egg can happen.

Alyssa: Okay. So let’s talk first about what it should look like.

Dr. Nave: Sure. With our cycle, there are five main hormones that influence a woman’s hormonal cycle. We have LH and FSH, which are the hormones that are produced by the brain to tell an egg to mature and to allow the endometrial lining, which is basically the build-up of tissue in the uterus that allows the implanted fertilized egg to become a baby. So we have those two hormones that are produced by the brain, and then we have estrogen, testosterone, and progesterone that are produced in the ovary.

Alyssa: All the time, or only if an egg is implanted?

Dr. Nave: At specific times. A typical cycle, in terms of what we would call the normal cycle or the optimal cycle, would be a 28-day cycle. We have some leeway in terms of, in the medical community, how we diagnose whether it’s too long or too short, whether it be above 35 days or less than 21. For me, I think it’s best if it’s 28 days because it’s kind of like cycle with the moon, so the lunar cycle, because it also helps with the math. So we’ll just use 28 for the typical just for explaining what happens. In the first 14 days, that’s what we call the ovulatory – like, the building up of estrogen. The brain tells the ovary, by way of follicular stimulated hormone, FHS, to make one of the eggs mature. So it’s like, hey, ovary, let one of these eggs become the mother, so to speak. The brain does that, and then the ovary responds by allowing one of the eggs to become mature. We have multiple eggs that are responding during this time in different life stages, but the one that is the oldest usually gets picked, in terms of its life phase. It becomes mature; the estrogen is being made by the egg itself, which allows for that ovulation to occur. FHS tells the egg to become mature, and then the egg itself makes estrogen so the egg can further mature. It’s a fascinating, interesting thing that’s happening.

Alyssa: That’s during ovulation?

Dr. Nave: Yes, so during the first 14 days of your cycle, the estrogen is building up so that the egg can fully mature. Then what happens is that there are two types of cells that are a part of the egg. One produces estrogen, and the other aspect makes testosterone, so those are the other two hormones that we’re talking about. Once the egg matures and it’s released, the thing that’s left behind is called the corpus luteum, also known as the yellow body. That then makes progesterone. All of this is sort of happening at the same time, so we say 14 days for the ovulatory phase, but really, it’s like the brain is telling the body to make progesterone at the same time it’s telling the body to make estrogen. It’s just that it’s at a lower level. Until the egg is released. You don’t really have that progesterone being made.

Alyssa: It’s ebbing and flowing based on the day of your cycle?

Dr. Nave: Yes, yes. Around day 14 is when the egg is released. It’s the highest level of estrogen at that point in time, and then the yellow body that’s left behind – the brain told the egg, by way of the luteinizing hormone, LH, to start making progesterone. Are you following?

Alyssa: Kind of, yeah. In my head, that little egg is moving along, following a timeline.

Dr. Nave: Right! At day 14, we have the highest estrogen, and progesterone starts to climb up.

Alyssa: And estrogen is decreasing and progesterone is increasing?

Dr. Nave: Yeah, estrogen is at its peak; progesterone starts to spike up a lot more. I’m grossly simplifying it, sorry! As the progesterone is being built up – so the corpus luteum is making the progesterone because the brain told it, hey, make progesterone by way of the LH, the luteinizing hormone. That causes, then, the endometrial lining in the uterus to build up so that implantation of the egg can happen. Towards day 28, which is when you expect bleeding to occur – basically, the reason why bleeding occurs is that the progesterone starts declining at that point because progesterone is necessary for the build-up of the uterine wall so that implantation can happen, but if there’s no fertilization off the egg, then it basically is a withdrawal of the progesterone, and then it just sloughs off.

Alyssa: So day number one is not the – is that the day your period starts?

Dr. Nave: Yes.

Alyssa: So day 28, then, is the day before you period starts? Okay, I’m seeing the timeline in my head.

Dr. Nave: Yeah. Day one, when a doctor asks a woman, okay, what’s day one of your period, he or she is technically asking, when’s the first day of your bleeding. Technically, we’re always cycling, but we consider day one the last time you bled. That’s what the cycle should look like. Now, when we experience our periods, even though people consider it the status quo that we experience PMS, we don’t have to experience it. Does that make sense?

Alyssa: The hormonal changes don’t necessarily mean that we’re going to have the mental and – becoming angry or disorganized or frustrated?

Dr. Nave: Yeah. Seeing those symptoms for a woman, that would indicate to me that maybe the ratio is a little bit off. Some examples are acne or being really bloated. Being bloated, puffy, having water retention and having really heavy bleeding – that could be a sign that the woman is experiencing what we call estrogen dominance. Now, estrogen dominance doesn’t necessarily mean that she has high estrogen. It could just mean that her progesterone is low and therefore throwing off the ratio so that when she’s experiencing premenstrual syndrome, PMS, she’s experiencing these symptoms, even though if it were normal, she wouldn’t have to.

Alyssa: So you’re not saying that PMS is made up. It’s a real thing; it just means there’s an imbalance somewhere? It can be fixed, that you don’t have to deal with this stuff?

Dr. Nave: Absolutely. And the weepiness: estrogen. Estrogen is important for our bone health, our cardiovascular health. It’s the reason why we as women don’t get heart attacks until much later in life because it protects our hearts; it’s important for our bone health, which is why when you experience menopause or perimenopause, it’s very important to get your bone density checked. That’s the importance of estrogen. And then testosterone, which is produced by the egg, is important for sex drive and being able to be aroused.

Alyssa: What happens in a woman’s body when they’re aroused that helps with implantation?

Dr. Nave: When the woman is aroused, that allows the cervix to sort of pulsate so that when climax is achieved, the sperm can travel up into the uterus and, hey, let’s get to the egg wherever it is. It also allows for the vaginal canal, which typically is around three inches, which sounds crazy, but it actually lengthens and stretches. It’s a muscle that moves to accommodate the penis, if you’re having that kind of intercourse, or allow for artificial insemination in that way. So it increases the likelihood of implantation successfully occurring. It’s so cool!

Alyssa: We’ll pause so everyone can visualize!

Dr. Nave: Our bodies are amazing! In order for conception to occur, not only do the hormones have to cycle how they should, but you have to address your mental health; are you in the space that you can have intercourse or whatever it is? The ovary itself isn’t even attached to the uterus. There’s a gap between the two of them, and we have chemotaxis – basically a chemical, like how your body produces the hormones, that attracts the egg to go down the fallopian tube as opposed to staying in your abdominal area.

Alyssa: So every time you see a picture, it looks like…

Dr. Nave: They’re attached? Yes. But they’re not.

Alyssa: So they have to let go and then actually be drawn up by the fallopian tube and then into the uterus? They’re not attached?

Dr. Nave: No. We have connective tissue or fascia that’s in that area –

Alyssa: Which helps kind of push it in the right direction, probably?

Dr. Nave: Not exactly. It’s more like it creates this compartment so that your uterus isn’t just floating around in your abdominal cavity. We have this connective tissue that anchors it in that area so there’s less likelihood that a fertilized egg will end up outside of the uterus, which is why ectopic pregnancies are so low in terms of their incidence. But we also have these finger-like projections in the fallopian tube that brushes the egg along. So it’s not just the hormone that’s attracting the egg to where it needs to go and we have all these other signaling processing that are working.

Alyssa: I’m picturing a crowd surfer pushing it along.

Dr. Nave: We’re all supporting you! So that’s what a normal cycle should look like.

Alyssa: Ideally, that’s what it should look like?

Dr. Nave: Yes, ideally, that’s what it should look like.

Alyssa: And when a woman doesn’t have her cycle?

Dr. Nave: When she doesn’t have her cycle, then we have to consider two different things. Is it that she’s not bleeding at all, which we call amenorrhea, or are there greater than 35 days between each cycle, in which case we call that oligomenorrhea, or many menses, technically.

Alyssa: It seems like it would be the opposite because there’s a big space between. But either way, it’s a problem, and that will help determine how you treat it?

Dr. Nave: Yes. And so if it is that a woman isn’t bleeding, as in amenorrhea, then we have to consider why is that the case. Is it that she’s pregnant? That would be the first thing to assess. Is she pregnant? Okay, she’s not. What exactly is going on? One particular condition that I’ve been hearing or rather seeing more women experience is called PCOS. We mentioned it earlier, that PCOS stands for polycystic ovarian syndrome or Stein-Leventhal syndrome. Basically, what’s happening is that instead of the progesterone going up around day 14 to day 28, instead of it increasing, the body is changing it into another type of hormone. Just to give you some context, our bodies use cholesterol to make all our steroid hormones, which are all our sex hormones as well as cortisol. Our bodies use the cholesterol and then turn it into pregnenolone which is like the mother of all of those hormones. Pregnenolone can then become progesterone. It can become testosterone. It can become estrogen, which we have three different types of estrogens, or it can become cortisol. In PCOS, what’s happening is that instead of the pregnenolone going down to becoming progesterone, it’s getting turned into either testosterone, estrogen, or cortisol. A woman who potentially has PCOS or has been confirmed with that diagnosis – in addition to having amenorrhea, for her to be diagnosed with it, she also has to have two out of three symptom criteria. We have what’s called hyperandrogenism, which is high testosterone, and some of the symptoms she could experience would be cystic acne or hirsutism, which is just a fancy term for hair in unwanted places, like coarse, thick hair along your hairline or along your breast or in places that aren’t typical areas that you have hair distribution. That’s one, and then the amenorrhea that we talked about, and the last one is seeing cysts. The only way that we can really assess if there are cysts in the ovary is if we do a transvaginal ultrasound. I say we, but not me, but the actual tech would do that for you, and basically, they place a probe inside the vaginal canal, and they use an ultrasound on top of the abdomen to visualize if there are any cysts in the ovary. The reason why we get the cysts – to back up again to looking at the cycle, instead of the egg being released, the egg just stays there, because you need the progesterone to tell the egg, hey, release.

Alyssa: It stays where?

Dr. Nave: It stays in the ovary. And then in the ovary itself, you have all these eggs that look like they’re just about to release, but they end up forming what’s called a cyst. It can be fluid filled. Cyst is just a fancy term for a ball, kind of.

Alyssa: I didn’t know a cyst could be an egg that didn’t move.

Dr. Nave: That didn’t move, yeah.

Alyssa: So when people say they’ve had ovarian cysts burst, it could be an egg that didn’t move? Could be, doesn’t have to be?

Dr. Nave: Could be, doesn’t have to be. It could just be fluid. But in the case of PCOS, it’s like the ovary doesn’t release the egg, so it becomes mature, kind of, but not to the point where it actually releases because we don’t have any progesterone, or there’s minimal levels of progesterone so that if and when a woman experiences bleeding, if she has PCOS – so long cycle or no bleeding at all – in the long cycle aspect of things, there’s no egg. It’s just blood or tissue that got to build up a little bit.

Alyssa: So the egg still is stuck in the ovary?

Dr. Nave: Yes. I mean, you could have some release at some point if her progesterone can get high enough that that can occur, but it’s kind of scattered. You can’t really track it per se because it’s insufficient.

Alyssa: So she’s having them, just not – I guess 35 days instead of 28 – wouldn’t most women just go, oh, that’s no big deal; I just have a long cycle? What are the other symptoms? What else would they see?

Dr. Nave: She could have the symptoms of PMS but never actually bleed. So she’s still cycling, because remember you’re still cycling, always, whether you bleed or don’t bleed; the hormones are still doing their thing. She can experience the PMS symptoms but not bleed, which means that she’s not able to get pregnant. And even if you don’t ever want to get pregnant, our uterus is what I like to call an emunctory. An emunctory is basically an organ that our bodies use to detox or remove toxins. If we are not bleeding, that means those hormones are getting reabsorbed into our bodies, which for a woman, if she’s estrogen-dominant, it basically reinforces the estrogen dominance because she’s reabsorbing it in her intestines, which makes the symptoms to get worse. Because to get rid of our hormones, once they’ve done their thing and we’ve shed our lining and we bleed, the other way in which we get rid of our steroid hormones is by poop. So if you’re not pooping, then…

Alyssa: Is that another symptom or side effect? Is that a cycle issue, or not?

Dr. Nave: It could be a cycle issue. One of the symptoms that women sometimes experience is when they’re on their periods, either they’re constipated or they have really loose stool, and that’s because of hormones.

Alyssa: They call it period poop, and I never knew why.

Dr. Nave: Yeah, it’s because of the hormones.

Alyssa: So it’s normal? If you’re having a regular cycle and you have a day of poop that’s not normal, it’s just your hormones? That’s normal?

Dr. Nave: Normal in the sense of it’s to be expected with what you’re experiencing, yes. Other things that can happen with PCOS, and this is not with every woman, is that some women gain weight. Some don’t. For a woman that does gain weight if she has PCOS, what’s happening is that the body is converting the progesterone into cortisol. And cortisol is the hormone that affects our sleep-wake cycle. So when you first wake up in the morning, the reason why you’re fully awake is cortisol. It spikes at that point. What happens when we’re under a lot of stress, or if you have PCOS, our bodies are making a lot more cortisol, and that cortisol allows for the breakdown of stored glucose and the conversion of other proteins and fats into glucose. This issue with that happening for prolonged periods is that the woman can experience what’s called insulin insensitivity, so her body is no longer able to respond to insulin, which means that when she eats, then she can’t stabilize her blood sugar, which means that the sugar stays longer in the bloodstream, which causes damage to small blood vessels and nerves, which is what happens in diabetes. That’s why for a woman with PCOS, having metformin might work, which is why some doctors place a woman with PCOS on metformin to increase her chances of conceiving. It’s not just the hormones that affect your cycle; hormones influence every aspect of our lives, from the moment we wake up and take our first breath to the moment that we pass on into the next life. It’s this orchestra that each hormone has a part to play and influence each other in term of how effectively each part is able to do their part.

Alyssa: So let’s say I came in and I had questions about my cycle. What’s the first thing that a woman could expect? Bloodwork?

Dr. Nave: The first thing I would want to know is what labs she’s already gotten done. Has she gotten her thyroid checked? And when I say thyroid, I don’t just mean THS because THS is just your brain telling your thyroid, hey, make the thing. It’s also looking at the levels of the thyroid hormones because you have two types of those. You have free T3 and free T4. Their ratio is also important. So thyroid function; CBC, which just stands for a complete blood count. It’s checking for anemia, because that could be another reason for amenorrhea. You may not be bleeding because you’re iron deficient. And then I would also want CMP. That’s a complete metabolic panel, and that looks at the kidney and liver function, which are affected if blood sugar isn’t being regulated effectively. On the CMP, there’s also a fasting blood glucose on there, so that would be something to look at. I would also want to review her symptoms. What symptoms are you experiencing? Are you experiencing acne? Are you experiencing bloating and irritability on your menses? Do you experience depression on your period? There’s also the consideration that we have PMS, and then we have PMDD, which is premenstrual dysphoric disorder, which is basically PMS on steroids. It’s like the cycle overall is so horrendous that the woman can’t go to work. It’s affecting her daily life, affecting her mental health. She’s more depressed on her period, more irritable, or really angry, or in so much pain that she can’t leave her home. Looking at her as a whole person is what I’m about. And she’s the expert in her experience, right? She knows what it’s like to walk in her body, to experience these symptoms, how they affect her life, and then both of us taking our expertise to work together to get to the root of why this is happening and give the body the tool that it needs so it can rectify it.

Alyssa: You just reminded me that I need to make an appointment with you. I remember when I met you the first time, I was like, yeah, I need to see her, because not only have I turned 40, but I know my hormones are changing. My periods are changing. Just weird things happening. So how do people find you? What’s the best way to get ahold of you?

Dr. Nave: I am at Health For Life Grand Rapids, and you can check the website and look for my page. There’s a 15-minute free meet and greet and consult, so we can see if we’re a good fit. I can hear about your concerns, and you can get the cure that you need.

Alyssa: I love it. Thank you so much for joining us. We’re going to have you on again, and we’ll talk about some other intriguing topics. Again, thanks for tuning in. This is Ask the Doulas Podcast; you can always find us on our website and on Facebook and Instagram. Remember, these moments are golden.

Understanding Your Cycle: Podcast Episode #82 Read More »

Maddie’s HypnoBirthing Story: Podcast Episode #81

Ask The Doulas Podcast / Alyssa Veneklase / birth doula, birth story, birth support, childbirth, childbirth classes, childbirth education, gold coast doulas, Hypnobirthing, labor and delivery, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, pregnant, self-hypnosis

Today our former birth client and HypnoBirthing student, Maddie Kioski, tells us her personal pregnancy journey using HypnoBirthing and how it helped her feel excited about labor and delivery instead of scared. You can listen to this completed podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, and I’m here today with Maddie Kioski. She is a former HypnoBirthing student of Gold Coast and also my birth client. Good to see you! It’s been a while.

Maddie: You, too! It’s been so long. We just had the third year birthday for Charlie, so three years!

Kristin: That is so amazing! I love following all of your adventures on Facebook. So, Maddie, let us know a little bit about your HypnoBirthing experience and why you chose HypnoBirthing and what it did for you. We’ll have another episode coming up about your actual birth story, but this is focused on the class.

Maddie: I’m lucky to have two older sisters who were very instrumental in that they both researched natural birthing and all of that, so before I ever got pregnant, I was kind of familiar. The middle sister took a HypnoBirthing class in Atlanta, so when I got pregnant, I knew I wanted to go for a natural birth, so I started researching in our area. I found you guys, and I found speed-dating with the doulas, and so I was like, oh, perfect. And I saw you guys did the HypnoBirthing classes, so once I came and met you guys, I was sold. I knew for sure this is what I want to do. So my husband and I did the weekends class, so we had just longer weekend classes. When we started, he was not totally sold on it, but he said, well, if you want to do, then of course we’ll go and we’ll do it together. I actually really enjoyed having the weekend class. For me, it was a long period instead of the shorter periods; you could really focus on it and really get in depth.

Kristin: Did you do any preparation knowing that it was a very time-intensive class versus being spread out for five weeks? Did you read the book in advance? Did you do any preparation?

Maddie: I didn’t. We came to the class, and then we would read after class on the way home; we’d read on the way to class, and then we’d do some in the interim before the next week. I just knew this is what I wanted to do. I can’t remember; I think I was maybe five months when I started.

Kristin: That sounds about right. Yeah, I remember there was some time before your due date.

Maddie: Yeah. So we started listening to the rainbow relaxion every night. It was weeks before I even knew there was a rainbow in it; I just fell asleep every time. But my husband listened to it every single night, so he was pretty familiar.

Kristin: It’s good to fall asleep to. It means that you’re getting in that fully relaxed state.

Maddie: Right. So I think what was really, really helpful for me in the classes was reframing how you think about birth. That was really helpful for me. Instead of saying Braxton-Hicks, it was practice labor. This is natural and normal and healthy; really understanding that trusting my body to do what it needed to do; trusting my baby, that he was going to be able to do what he needed to do. Reframing all of those words was really, really helpful for me.

Kristin: Yeah, I’m all about the impact of language. Even the contraction; you think of it being intense and tightening up, but in labor, you want to be relaxed or it’s just going to be more uncomfortable and take longer, so calling it a surge, for example, and viewing the wave-like motion of labor.

Maddie: And I also think what was really helpful for me is understanding what’s actually happening with your body and the different phases and knowing — I felt very internal when I was going through it, and so knowing what was going to happen and having learned about all the physical physiology, hormones, and all of that — I felt was really helpful to just kind of put my mind at ease and feel more prepared about what was going to happen and what I could expect. And I think being able to relax and feel more relaxed about it also let me feel a little free with, if something doesn’t go exactly how I want it to go, that’s okay. We have another plan. We know if it’s an emergent situation, things are going to have to change, but feeling more relaxed about the birthing process allowed me to feel relaxed about letting go of exactly how things were going to happen.

Kristin: Right. And there are some misconceptions about HypnoBirthing only being for home birthers. You birthed in the hospital?

Maddie: Yes.

Kristin: And you were able to apply what you learned in class?

Maddie: Absolutely. I took an old phone with me and I had my rainbow relaxation, and I had some other music on there and the affirmation track, and so I was playing those while I was at the hospital. Even just something like keeping the lights down low to allow a more relaxed atmosphere, to allow your hormones to really react to the calm environment rather than bright lights and people coming in and out. I mean, you can change your environment when you have the knowledge of what it should be to help your birth go more easily. So that was helpful. And I was fortunate to go to Spectrum Butterworth, and you can labor in the tub there and all of that, and they have a lot more training as far as helping women through a natural birth.

Kristin: Yeah, your provider makes a difference; a supportive hospital and their policies and procedures make a big difference in being able to achieve HypnoBirthing in the hospital.

Maddie: What was helpful as well: I did do a lot of research as far as who I wanted as a provider and selecting a provider that you guys have worked with a lot and a lot of other moms in the area have recommended, so they were more familiar with HypnoBirthing, too, and they understand it more and understand what a natural birth looks like.

Kristin: And it can be much different to observe someone who is internally focused if a provider is not familiar with HypnoBirthing.

Maddie: Right, exactly, and not feeling forced to respond and explain what’s happening and just allowing your body to do the work that it needs to do, allowing your baby to do the work that they need to do.

Kristin: Exactly. Was there anything from the class that didn’t sit with you? I always say, take what you like from a class or experience and then discard the rest. Was there anything that didn’t resonate with you immediately?

Maddie: I responded well to a lot of the self-hypnosis kind of techniques, but we didn’t end up really using those a ton when we were actually going through the birth process. We did a lot of focusing on breathing because that’s where I really ended up struggling was just calming down and getting those deep breaths in and having my husband understand what needed to happen; understand I needed to be breathing to get that oxygen in for baby, too, and help calm my body down. He was a fantastic birth partner.

Kristin: I remember that about your birth, for sure. He’s a very supportive partner.

Maddie: He was really involved, and we felt really connected after, so that was beautiful. And I know some people did a fear release, and for me, that didn’t really work, I feel like, as well for me. I think it would be really helpful for some people, but my main concerns were that I get migraines, and they’re really bad, and I’ve had kidney stones and they’re really bad, and so I felt like, oh, man, if I can’t handle those, am I going to be able to do a natural birth? So I think what helped more was just understanding how the birth process works, and then I talked with some other moms who also struggled with those same health issues, and they were able to help calm my fears, as well. Understanding that your body is putting out all that love hormone; you’re not going to be getting a migraine. Your body is protecting you from that; it’s focused on what needs to happen. So the actual fear release part, I didn’t really use that as much.

Kristin: And one thing about the HypnoBirthing class that’s helpful is you work on your birth preference sheet or birth plan. Was that helpful in having discussions with your providers during your pregnancy?

Maddie: Extremely helpful. I think it was almost more helpful for my husband and I to kind of give us a guideline of what we need to focus on. With HypnoBirthing, we had informed choice, really; here are evidence-based articles that you can read about these certain preferences that you can choose from. That was helpful for us to talk about. My providers were so wonderful, though; I just kind of was like, well, here’s my sheet, and they were like, yep, these all look great.

Kristin: Whatever you want!

Maddie: So that was helpful. But I would say I had a shift change, and so I think what would have been helpful that I didn’t realize was making sure, when we did that shift change, that the other nurse made sure to read the birth preferences. I had put on there that I didn’t want coached pushing, and so when she came in, I don’t think that she had really read it necessarily, and so then they were pretty focused on that.

Kristin: That can be challenging, the timing.

Maddie: I was just trying to block that out. You were helpful, and the midwife and my husband were all talking about breathing and getting those breaths in, and that was helpful.

Kristin: Great. Any other tips or advice for anyone considering HypnoBirthing?

Maddie: I think it was so helpful and such a bonding experience that I feel — I felt prepared and I felt excited to give birth. I think so many women go into it feeling scared and saying, give me drugs; they just feel from the beginning that I’m not going to be able to do it. And after going through HypnoBirthing and really understanding the process, understanding and getting to a point where I trust my body and trust my baby; it’s natural; it’s normal; it’s healthy. I was so excited! I was so excited to go in and give birth.

Kristin: I could tell that; I could see it and feel it.

Maddie: And you can know, okay, it’s not going to be a walk in the park, but it was beautiful, and I feel so fortunate to have had such a wonderful first birth experience.

Kristin: Do you use any of the breathing or relaxation techniques in general life or parenting?

Maddie: I do, actually, do a lot of deep breathing when I feel frustrated and I need to take a step away and focus internally; do some breath depths; focus on a relaxing color.

Kristin: I do that with my kids. I get them to use HypnoBirthing and the birth breaths and the relaxation. For me, I have a fear of the dentist, so I’ve used it at the dentist! Yeah, it’s very helpful. Well, it’s so good to have you on, and we’ll talk about your actual birth story shortly.

Maddie: I’m excited!

Kristin: Thanks for listening to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas! Remember, these moments are golden.

Maddie’s HypnoBirthing Story: Podcast Episode #81 Read More »

Megan’s Sleep Story: Podcast Episode #80

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Sleep / Alyssa Veneklase / gentle sleep, gold coast doulas, how to get a newborn to sleep, how to make a baby sleep, newborn sleep, night nanny, night nurse, pregnancy insomnia, pregnancy podcast, safe sleep, sleep consultant, sleep deprivation, sleep tips, sleep training, sleeping during pregnancy

Megan Kretz, one of Alyssa’s sleep clients, tells us about her sleep training journey with her daughter at 9 months and again at 19 months. She says that as a working mom, it meant spending a little less time with her daughter, but that it was all worth it because the quality of the time spent together improved drastically. Everyone was happier and healthier! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Alyssa: Welcome to Ask the Doulas Podcast. I am Alyssa, and today I’m excited to be talking to Megan Kretz. You were one of my past sleep clients, and then again recently.

Megan: Yeah, thanks for having me on!

Alyssa: Yes, we’re going to talk about sleep today. So remind me of how this journey began and what was happening before you called me.

Megan: So we reached out to you about when my daughter was nine months old with just all sorts of life problems as a result of my daughter’s sleep habits and our sleep habits, as well. A lot of it was definitely a struggle because we almost created the environment, the problem, that we found ourselves in.

Alyssa: Unknowingly.

Megan: Yes, unknowingly.

Alyssa: I mean, you don’t realize it when you’re doing it. You’re in survival mode.

Megan: Right. Before the age of eight months, my daughter had had five ear infections, and so we were in and out of doctors’ offices, on and off antibiotics, and because of that, she was in a lot of pain. She was seeking comfort because we could never get her comfortable. So in doing so, we just ended up creating all these really bad sleep habits. Falling asleep with us, on us, whatever we could do to allow mom and dad and baby to get some sort of rest. Up probably eleven times at night breastfeeding, and then wouldn’t take naps during the day; was up all day except for two 45-minute naps at the age of six, seven months old. Where our thoughts were going at that point was that she wasn’t developing properly without proper sleep. We couldn’t go on date nights. Nobody else could put my daughter down to sleep except me, not even her dad. We couldn’t go two hours for a movie on the couch without my daughter waking up, and it was getting to a point where, looking into the future, I don’t know how we would have gone much longer with the way that things were. And I had heard about you guys before, and finally I ended up going on the website, and I saw that you guys offer the sleep consultations. I was hesitant at first, but oh my gosh…

Alyssa: Didn’t she take to it, like, the first night?

Megan: Oh, yeah! The first night when we went through all of that — but I felt super needy with you.

Alyssa: No, you weren’t at all!

Megan: Texting you all the time! The first night, we had to go in and out, in and out a lot, but by the second night — she was almost there on the first night, and the second night, she was like, bam, done. She was like, I got this, Mom! I’m going to be your sleep champ from now on!

Alyssa: And kids always surprise parents. They want to sleep so bad, and once we just get them on a schedule, it just happens so much more quickly and easily than a lot of parents expect.

Megan: A lot of other working parents might find themselves in the same situation or scared on what they’re going to end up doing. I learned that so much of her night sleep is dependent on her daytime sleep and her nap schedule. She went to a daycare facility, and they had also used the same crutches we had to get her to sleep, and I was just nervous about that whole transition and really needing her to take proper naps in order to accomplish what we needed to at night. And in the end, we sorted out some schedules. We had some people that came and helped us and pulled her out of daycare for a week.

Alyssa: Yeah, I remember that. You had somebody stay at the house, because that first week is pretty critical, and when you have two parents working full time, you can’t just take a week off.

Megan: No, you can’t!

Alyssa: To have your baby sleep. That’s not feasible. But yeah, you had a trusted babysitter come over, right?

Megan: Yeah, and I don’t remember how many days it was.

Alyssa: Oh, you had a doula come, too, for a couple days, didn’t you?

Megan: No. Well, you…

Alyssa: Must have been another client. Sometimes they’ll hire a doula to come stay either during the day overnight.

Megan: I remember you said there are so many days that it takes of consistent behavior development to actually –

Alyssa: Until it becomes a habit.

Megan: Yeah, until it becomes normal for them. So we just had to get through that, and we did.

Alyssa: Well, and especially because she was going to daycare. Daycare can totally muck things up, especially if it’s a large one and not an in-home daycare but a large one where they have 20 kids and maybe 15 of them are in the nursery, and they’re just, like, this is naptime, and if they’re not sleeping, we get them up, because we don’t want them waking the other babies up.

Megan: Well, that’s what part of the problem was is that she was in the nursery, and there’s 12 other babies in that room, and they all share a crib room together. And they couldn’t get her to sleep, and then she was waking up other babies. It was all downhill from there.

Alyssa: So they just say, all right, nap’s done.

Megan: Yep.

Alyssa: But after that five days of a consistent pattern, then she’s going to go back to daycare, and her body’s already on the schedule and already has a rhythm set, and it’s much easier to go back into that daycare environment and tell them, now she sleeps from this time to this time, and if she wakes up early, here’s what you have to do.

Megan: And daycare, you know, they made their own adjustments for what worked for them, too, so I gave them our schedule, but then they actually removed her from a crib and put her on a toddler sleep mat. They’re raised little beds, and I had to get a doctor’s note, but at the age of ten months, nine months, she was actually the only child in the room for months that slept on a cot.

Alyssa: Oh, so she was in her own room?

Megan: She wasn’t. She was blocked off from the other kids. So yeah, she was in a room by herself, but she was kind of blocked off with some shelving units so the other kids didn’t get all up in her business when she was sleeping. But she was on a cot, and that worked best for her because they found that she was anxious in the room with all the other kids in the cribs because all of her past memories were coming up, so changing her sleep environment was also to let them work according to the sleep plan, as well. So it ended up working well that way, and she ended up moving up into the next toddler room already on the cot where most babies have to go through this learning period for that.

Alyssa: So I remember in the beginning, you kind of struggled. You had this tug-of-war within yourself of, gosh, she’s sleeping amazing now, but now I miss these cuddles that I get at night.

Megan: Yeah, I remember that!

Alyssa: It was like, we have to find a balance here. It’s hard to go from being used to her there all the time, but that’s part of the problem is that she’s there all the time and nobody can sleep.

Megan: And at night when I’m giving her cuddles, she’s giving me cuddles, too.

Alyssa: Yeah, it’s hard to just let that go.

Megan: And then don’t forget about the readjustment to milk supply. That was a big thing, as well.

Alyssa: Yeah, breastfeeding changes. Your body eventually fixes itself…

Megan: But it takes a little while and some uncomfortable days.

Alyssa: Yeah, you’ll wake up leaking everywhere. I’ve told moms to sleep on towels for a couple nights if needed!

Megan: Oh, yeah, been there, done that!

Alyssa: Yeah, so we talked about, early in the morning when she wakes up, get some cuddles in, and then spend the weekends, like Saturday and Sunday mornings, just make that cuddle time in bed to get all that oxytocin, all these great hormones that you guys are sharing when you get these cuddles.

Megan: It’s funny that you say that because it’s almost a tradition now that she’s older. She calls her pacifier her “oh, no” because when she can’t find it and she’s upset, it’s an oh, no situation. So she has to leave her “oh, no” in her crib, and then we go and get a bottle of milk, and I ask her if she wants to snuggle. Sometimes I get her out of the crib and she’s like, “Snuggle!” because that’s our time together. So we do that when we’re reading books before bedtime now, because we no longer breastfeed or give her a bottle before bed, so we just read books and snuggle for five, ten minutes, and then in the crib she goes. And then in the morning it’s a good cuddle time, and I wake up a little bit early and get ready before she’s up so that I’m not rushed for time to get ready. Either my husband or I will devote that time to her.

Alyssa: That’s really smart. I was just talking to somebody earlier about the fact that sometimes kids are just waking up because they want to see you, so especially as a parent who works full time, you already have this guilt of, I haven’t seen my child all day, and now they’re sleeping all night by themselves, which is great, but when do I get to see them? When do I get to cuddle them? So when you do a nighttime routine and then in the morning, put that phone away. Don’t make the TV part of this process. Put that kid on your lap; cuddle; kiss. Read the book, whatever. Just get all the snuggles in you can. They get 30 minutes of your undivided attention, and they don’t know if it’s any different than eight hours. To them it’s just that mom and dad are here and loving on me, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Megan: I agree, and it was hard being a working mom when we were going through all of this because the time with her became less because the night wakings weren’t there. But the quality increased. Her behavior got a lot better. And I am a better mom by being a working mom because I can devote my attention better if I have some things that I do on my own, if I have a work life, as well. So I didn’t want to give that up, but readjusting and figuring out the quality time was a lot better when she was rested and herself.

Alyssa: That’s the key, yeah.

Megan: And it really shines this whole idea even more when we recently went on vacation, and it was a struggle because we were in a new environment. She was in her own bed, but we had to share a room with her, and although all that went fine, her behavior was like she was truly in the terrible twos. She’s only 21 months old now, but everything changed because we tried to stick to the schedule, but you’re on vacation, so there’s only so much that you can do. So immediately on the day that we returned from this week-long vacation, and she’s sleeping in her own environment and we’re right back to the same routine, it was immediate behavior change, and it just solidifies even more how important a sleep plan is and how important it is to make sure that they get the sleep that they need.

Alyssa: They thrive on it, and we think that we’re doing them a favor by letting them stay up late to play with their friends. Or the 4th of July; it’s not even dark for fireworks until 10:00; what am I going to do? We’re not doing them or ourselves any favors by letting them stay up because usually they’re a wreck for two days after that. They’re not going to sleep in the next day. More than likely. They’re going to be up early the next morning. It affects them so opposite of the logical thinking. But yeah, that’s the key. You’ve hit the nail on the head; you have to readjust and understand that you have less time together, but it’s more quality time, and her entire world has changed. She’s happier, healthier, developing at a better rate because we all need sleep for that to happen.

Megan: It’s funny that you brought up the whole fact that readjusting and going to parties and not keeping them up late and whatnot — it’s funny because it’s easy for my husband and I to say sorry, we’re leaving at 7:30 or 7:00 or 6:30, whatever we have to do, to get home and start the bedtime routine. The hardest part about all of that is not leaving early; it’s convincing your family members and your friends that this is what you’re going to do and that this is important to you and your family, because it’s almost like they’re the ones pressuring you to alter your child’s sleep schedule. So that’s come up a few times, especially around the holidays when your family members do holiday parties or gift openings starting at 6:00, and bedtime routine starts at 6:30. You’re like, sorry, guys, we can’t come.

Alyssa: Right, unless you want to bring a pack and play and put her to bed there.

Megan: Which we’ve done. When she was young enough, we did that, and that was fine. We do that sometimes with friends where we go over and put her to sleep in the pack and play. We try to avoid that as much as possible, and now that our friends have kids or are having kids, we schedule things at 2:00 in the afternoon instead. Dinner parties go from 3:00 to 7:00; they don’t go from 7:00 to 11:00.

Alyssa: Yeah, that is the hardest part, because you have to be so consistent, and when you get those dirty looks or the weird looks from your friends, like why do they always have to leave so early, it makes you kind of feel bad, but you know it’s worth it. You’re doing this because it’s worth it.

Megan: Yep, it is.

Alyssa: So then you called me again recently…

Megan: I did!

Alyssa: She was sleeping great, and then you made a pretty big transition. Tell me about that.

Megan: Yeah. She was always a little bit ahead of the other kids as far as walking and crawling and climbing and running, so she eventually started climbing out of her crib, and we started getting very nervous about possible injuries. Quite a few times, on the video in her room, we’d see her sitting on the edge of the crib, just teetering there. My husband really pushed for a change because we can’t be doing this. So we actually ended up moving her into a big kid bed at the age of 19 months. And I’m trying to take what I learned with you from when she was nine months and trying to apply it to a child that’s now a toddler. And it wasn’t working. And that’s when we contacted you and learned about how kids don’t learn about delay of gratification until they’re three years old. So she doesn’t understand what it means when we tell that if you stay in bed all night, we get special time together in the morning.

Alyssa: It makes no sense. She doesn’t understand that concept whatsoever.

Megan: No. And she can get in and out of the toddler bed. Yeah, she may not be falling out of it now, but my husband and I went back to doing whatever we’ve got to do to get this child to sleep. So her nighttimes got shorter because we ended up staying in bed and laying with her until she fell asleep. Our bedtime routine went to two hours; from twenty minutes to two hours. And then she wouldn’t sleep a full eleven hours at night, and then her nap became elongated to three hours. We were on a waitlist for a daycare at the time, so we had to hire a nanny for a couple months. And it was funny because we were paying her for an eight-hour day when our daughter is sleeping for three of them! Just kind of a funny fact. But we went right back to, oh my gosh, what do we do? A year later, I’m finding your email address and saying help! Is there anything that you can help us with? And then when you sent us our new sleep plan and we saw that there are clear ways to help a child stay in the bed and to go right back into a routine for this next stage of a child’s life, and that babies aren’t the same as toddlers. It was eye-opening again when we saw the second plan, and you had so much good information in there!

Alyssa: I always wonder if it’s too much.

Megan: No!

Alyssa: I geek out on sleep information, so I give my clients so much information. I think it’s imperative!

Megan: My husband even brought up later on about something else in the sleep plan that wasn’t related to sleep. Oh, it was snacking! You had said — and it’s so true. A lot of times, we were just allowing her to snack a lot, and we didn’t have set meals, necessarily. Yeah, she ate meals with us, but we allowed her to snack more than we snacked, not even thinking about how that might be tied into sleep or protein intake at certain times of the day and how that aids in sleep patterns. We had no idea. I was giving her a snack, and my husband actually said to me, don’t you remember reading that on Alyssa’s sleep plan?

Alyssa: That’s great! That’s what it’s there for!

Megan: Yeah, it was a lot of great information. And there’s just something special about receiving this information from a local person, from you, a person, and not a book I just pulled off the shelf at the library that might be outdated. You really cater our sleep plans to us, to the client and to the child, and having come in to our home, you knew us. You looked for things that might be distractions for quality sleep and taught us how to do a proper nighttime routine. Although it was a lot of information at one time, it was well-received, and we felt very — I don’t know if qualified is the right word, but we got the information we needed to then make good, informed decisions.

Alyssa: And be confident.

Megan: Yes, we got the confidence.

Alyssa: Even though I’m with you — you’re texting me all the time; I’m responding back; I’m there for guidance — but I’m not there forever. So that’s why I want you to have enough information that you can say, oh, okay, she’s twelve months now. Oh, yeah, she told me that this would probably happen around 12 months. Because I learned this when she was nine months, that’s what this means at 12 months. You have to be able to troubleshoot yourself or you’re just going to keep calling me every three months at every developmental milestone, saying what do I do? Help!

Megan: And it’s funny because we went back to your sleep plan multiple times between 9 months and 15 months to just look and what did she say when she reaches this age group; how much sleep will she need; what are her naps supposed to look like? So we definitely referenced it. But being in a new bed, when all that came up… And the plans themselves were very different.

Alyssa: Yeah, sleep is very different for a two-year-old versus a nine-month-old.

Megan: Yeah. But now, after day one of the new sleep plan, we got her back in the crib. It was like she never forgot it. She was in the big girl bed for probably four weeks.

Alyssa: So you’re thinking, oh, great, even if we try this plan, she’s ruined. We’re going to have to start all over.

Megan: Yeah, that’s exactly what I thought, but no, her sleep habits came right back. We were able to get her nap back down to a normal, respectable time, and she’s back to sleeping eleven, twelve hours at night with no interruptions. We can go back to watching movies and having quality time together with my husband.

Alyssa: And for date nights, babysitters are easy?

Megan: Oh, babysitters can put her sleep again. I’m not asking a babysitter to sleep with her for two hours.

Alyssa: “You’re going to have to lay in this bed with her, sorry!”

Megan: And then ever so slightly, quietly creep out as quiet as possible!

Alyssa: It’s like the ninja role. Like, you kind of slowly roll of the bed, and you keep a hand there for pressure and you slowly lift your hand up.

Megan: Make sure the dog is quiet when you’re moving around so its nail don’t click-clack on the hardwood floors and wake her up! Oh, I better put some WD40 on that door! Yeah, those were all things that were happening and going through our head. I’m laughing and I’m making a joke about it, but those were legitimate concerns of mine when we had her in the big girl bed and all of this was going on. Call me crazy, but that’s how you feel when you and your child aren’t getting sleep.

Alyssa: Well, you are a bit crazy. I mean, sleep deprivation does not make for a sound mental state!

Megan: And now I just can’t believe how much you guys have been able to help us. Maybe my experience can help other people. I’ve referred quite a few people over your way.

Alyssa: Thank you!

Megan: I just can’t reiterate enough how much you guys helped us and how worth it it is.

Alyssa: it’s definitely a service that I could literally call life changing.

Megan: Yes! I would call it that, as well! In fact, I think I’ve left reviews stating that!

Alyssa: Well, if you had one thing that anyone who has pushed off sleep training would need to hear, what do you think it would be?

Megan: It’s worth it. It is what’s best for baby. It’s what best for you and your family unit.

Alyssa: And what if they’re scared? Sleep training just causes anxiety. Those two words; people just think oh, this just sounds like it’s going to be a miserable experience. My child is going to be left alone; they’re going to have anxiety.

Megan: But she wasn’t left alone. The plan you gave us; that wasn’t the case, and you told me right from the beginning, before I even paid for anything, that we will do a plan according to what is comfortable for you. And I was totally okay with the plan. And what’s the worst that could happen? She wakes up 12 times at night versus 11? No, that’s not even going to be a possibility. We were so far down the rabbit hole that there was no getting deeper. We were hitting bedrock. So it could only get better at this point, and it did. It was a complete 180.

Alyssa: Well, I loved working with your family both times. You probably won’t need me again because she’s great. Don’t put her in that toddler bed until she’s three.

Megan: We won’t!

Alyssa: You’ll know when she’s ready!

Megan: We will definitely wait. Now we have just over a year before we have to make any new changes to sleep, but now I have the tools, too, to be able to transfer her to a big girl bed

Alyssa: Yeah, did I give some info to plan for?

Megan: You did, yeah!

Alyssa: Oh, good. I figured I did, but…

Megan: But this isn’t the end, Alyssa! I’m sure that we will see each other again and talk to each other again!

Alyssa: Well, on that note — because you might be adopting?

Megan: Yeah.

Alyssa: So I’m going to talk to you again at a later time about what an adoption process looks like because I don’t know, and a lot of our listeners and parents probably don’t know and maybe are even thinking about it but might be scared. SO we’ll talk about that next time.

Megan: I’d love to help you with some insight on there.

Alyssa: Thanks for joining us!

Megan: Yeah, thank you for having me!

Alyssa: If you have any questions for us, you can email as at info@goldcoastdoulas.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram. Thanks, and remember, these moments are golden.

Megan’s Sleep Story: Podcast Episode #80 Read More »

Supporting a Postpartum Mother: Podcast Episode #79

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Parenting, Postpartum, Pregnancy, Self-Care, Sleep / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, mood disorders, night nanny, night nurse, overnight doula, perinatal mood disorders, postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, postpartum doulas, postpartum psychosis, postpartum recovery, pregnancy podcast, stress and pregnancy

Elsa Lockman, LMSW of Mindful Counseling talks to us today about how partners, family members, and other caregivers can support a mother during those critical postpartum weeks to ensure she seeks help if needed. How do you approach a new mother and what are her best options for care? You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.

Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, and I’m here today with Elsa Lockman. She’s with Mindful Counseling, and we are talking about how partners and other caregivers and family members can support a woman who has potential signs of postpartum depression or mood disorders.

Elsa: Yes. So postpartum is going to be an emotional time, so tears, some anger, sadness, are all part of the experience. After about two to three weeks out, if spouse or a friend or a mother is noticing maybe a mom is crying more than usual, isn’t really looking forward to things, has these unusual fears that they can’t seem to let go of. Another sign would be not seeming to eat very much or either sleeping a lot or not being able to sleep when the baby is sleeping. If they’re noticing those signs, it would maybe be a sign that they could go talk to somebody as far as a therapist or go see their doctor. Approaching Mom would be in a way to not criticize mom as if she’s doing anything wrong. She’s not doing anything wrong, so start off with validating, actually. She’s doing a great job with how hard it is; validate how hard she’s working, and try to tell her that it doesn’t have to be this way. She doesn’t have to do it alone.

Kristin: How does the caregiver know if it is baby blues or if it’s something that she needs help for? Because, of course, there can be that hormonal fluctuation. They may be teary.

Elsa: Baby blues usually stops after three weeks postpartum. So after that would be maybe a sign that there’s more going on. But I would say, is it getting it the way of functioning? Is it getting in the way of relationships? Is it getting in the way of their working in the home or outside of the home, getting those things done? To a degree, that is expected postpartum; not everything running smoothly, but are relationships being affected? Those would be signs that it’s more than just baby blues.

Kristin: How can a spouse, partner, or caregiver be supportive in order to empower her to get help? Is it best for them to directly reach out for help for her if they’re seeing signs, or what do you recommend?

Elsa: I recommend the mom reaching out, so that would be encouraging Mom to reach out herself. And maybe she needs to talk to a friend and have more time with friends or more time to herself; maybe that would help. See how that works. If that seems to help and is enough to alleviate whatever stress is going on, then that works, but maybe if it’s not working, then take it to another level, which would be contacting a therapist or your doctor.

Kristin: And since, obviously, women have multiple doctors — they’re seeing their OB or midwife and family doctor and their pediatrician — does it matter who they’re speaking with about getting help?

Elsa: No, it wouldn’t matter who you see. Usually the OB would be the person that they’ve seen most recently, but they can even bring it up to the pediatrician, since moms see the pediatrician very often.

Kristin: And as far as getting help for our local listeners and clients, they can reach out to you directly? How do they access you at Mindful Counseling, Elsa?

Elsa: They can go to the website, and they can contact me through there. Another resource would be Pine Rest, and through your OB’s office, there also is a list of therapists who specialize in perinatal mood disorders, which includes postpartum depression and anxiety.

Kristin: That’s so helpful. And in past conversations, you had mentioned that women can bring their babies to therapy; that you allow that with clients you’re working with, and I know Pine Rest encourages that with their mother-baby program?

Elsa: Yes, for sure. Bring your baby to the session; you can feed the baby, breastfeed, anything. Coming with your baby is welcomed and encouraged, for sure.

Kristin: Do you have any final thoughts or tips to share?

Elsa: Just that it doesn’t have to be going through this alone. It’s very normalized for women to feel that anxiety is just part of the postpartum experience or feeling depressed and stressed is part of it, and while it might be a new phase and there’s a lot going on, it doesn’t have to be that women are just suffering through it.

Kristin: Great point. Thanks so much, Elsa, for being on!

Supporting a Postpartum Mother: Podcast Episode #79 Read More »

The Minority Bride: Podcast Episode #78

Ask The Doulas Podcast, Pregnancy / Alyssa Veneklase / gold coast doulas, pregnancy, pregnancy podcast, pregnant

Alyssa: Hi, welcome to Ask the Doulas. It’s Alyssa and I’m talking with Gaby again if you remember her. Last time she told us her lovely birth stories. Hi Gaby.

Gaby: Hi Alyssa, good to be back.

Alyssa: I want to learn about your business. So Connie’s Bridal Boutique.

Gaby: Yes.

Alyssa: Who’s Connie? Beause you’re not Connie.

Gaby: No. We’re not Connie. Connie’s actually the name that the original owner gave the store, it was her nickname. Her original name was Veit Vu, she’s a cute little Vietnamese lady. Maybe 5 feet.

Alyssa: Okay.

Gaby: She was a powerhouse of a woman. These dresses get heavy, so you’d just see her hauling dresses back and forth. My grandmother used to work with her and when she decided to retire we purchased the brand and the store.

Alyssa: Okay.

Gaby: And we kind of molded it a little bit more towards our personalities, and growth, and developed it a little bit further.

Alyssa: Okay. So I’ve been in your store. It’s huge! It’s not little, it’s huge. I walked in and I’m like, “Oh my God! Look at all this space.”

Gaby: Yes!

Alyssa: So tell me what did you change? What’s your target market? Do you have a certain type of dress? Do you kind of focus on one area or is it a pretty broad range?

Gaby: Yeah, when we originally bought the store, if we’re getting down to nitty gritty business, we used to be on 44th and Kalamazoo. I think that was her second or third location. The target audience when we originally bought it, was for brides looking for dresses and formal gowns from $100 to, I think it was, $800. Around there. We began molding it to a little bit of a higher price range, just because that good chunk of $100 – $800 dresses, a lot of that is online. So it’s not really long term, sustainable, at least for how we run it. Which is a lot of sample and special orders, we don’t have stock of the same dress in 30 sizes.

Alyssa: Okay.

Gaby: We might have a couple in a small and a large, but most of what we do is a custom dress, custom measurements, custom length. We specialize in that and customizations, custom additions, and our clientele is the minority bride. That falls in so many categories. It could be “last minute,” so less than 6 months. We often do weddings like 2 weeks, 1 week, we can have a quick turn around time. My grandmother is magic as far as alterations! Our formal bridal gowns are anywhere from $600 to $3,000 – $5,000. We’re kind of snug in the middle between David’s and then you have the beautiful Renee Austin and Becker’s, who is on the higher end.

Alyssa: Right.

Gaby: We’re kind of snug in the middle for our minority brides and whether that be size, whether that’s brides that purchase and then they go and get married and they have beautiful African ceremonies in Africa, so that’s kind of the whole other package. Beause they’re buying for people where bridesmaids aren’t all here. We serve a lot of our “minority brides” that have that spunky and creative need.

Alyssa: Okay. Yeah, when I went in it was your grandmother and your mother.

Gaby: Yes!

Alyssa: You said sometimes your sister’s even there?

Gaby: Sometimes my sister’s there. On Saturdays, it’s me and my sister comes to help on and off. I kind of finagled my way to be like, “Grandma you can take Saturdays off and I’ll be here on Saturdays.” So now she’s there Monday through Friday, which is when our alterations and more complicated orders if she needs to kind of see as far as detailed illusion neckline, or anything like that. Then we’ll see them Monday through Friday and on Saturday we’re just seeing brides in their beginning phases and if they need basic fittings, then I can, of course, do that. I can fit you and pin you, but if anyone’s cutting your dress, it’s her.

Alyssa: It’s gonna be grandma.

Gaby: Yeah, it’s gonna be grandma!

Alyssa: So we learned last time that you have two children. How do you balance a three-year-old, a six-year-old, and helping to run a bridal shop?

Gaby: Yeah, I’m extremely lucky in the flexibility that not only working with my grandmother but having … working with my grandmother in our own business, close to home. So it’s kind of like a great little triangle of support. So she definitely wanted to see the grandkids, so when I had my first daughter and even with my son, I think I worked up until a couple of days before I gave birth. If not, the day before. I was very active, I don’t like to just down. When I gave birth, it was strap them up, literally carried them on and off up until they got too big to be carried. That was great! I could bring them in whenever and if I really couldn’t bring them in, I didn’t have to come into work. It wasn’t like I had to bring in a doctor’s note, and then I could work from home or work on off days. So I can move my schedule around pretty freely. So that’s definitely been a great opportunity for me to work, but also raise my kids and be as involved as I need to be or they want me to be. If they want to go chaperone, it’s great during the week because we’re not too busy. So I can say, “Hey, I’m not gonna be here until… today or until next time. I’m gonna go in the morning, I’m gonna be with my daughter or my son all day and then they can come back and work.” Sometimes work means I have to work until 9 or after they go to sleep, I’m gonna have to finish that, or I’m answering emails in the middle of the night.

Alyssa: Typical business owner stuff. I feel like I’m doing that all the time. You take out a chunk of time during the day to spend with friends, or family, or your children, and you always have to make up for it later.

Gaby: Right, you make up for it later.

Alyssa: That’s like the pros and cons, right? Of having your own business.

Gaby: Exactly. It’s definitely been a balance for them, as well. Because we open on Saturdays, so it’s not like we can just do all kinds of fun activities on Saturdays. My friends are like, “Oh, we’re having birthday parties.” And I’m like, “That’s great, but I’m at work.” So we can’t really just take that off. It’s Sundays. Everybody on Sunday kind of has a different schedule. In our industry, our busy time’s during the summer. So our vacations are in the winter.

Alyssa: Which is perfect! You want to get out of Michigan in the winter.

Gaby: We do! Everybody’s like, “You want to go to the beach?” I’m like, “Yes!”

Alyssa: On Sunday, I will!

Gaby: On Sunday, I will. Or Sunday usually ends up being trying to manage your household in half a day. Like a crazy person! That you have not been able to do the whole week. We kind of balance that out and my friends are like, “You never come out!” Like, it’s not really vacation ever for us, unless it’s winter. And during wintertime, regular jobs they’re still working, but we can be like, “Oh, we’ll take December off.” Because we’ve been working nonstop until December and we’ll just take a couple of weeks off. So it’s kind of a balance of where do you … it’s good to find other entrepreneurs because they have similar rhythms. Where it’s like, “I’m kind of just checking to see if you’re breathing for six months.” And then you can really hang out with them.

Alyssa: Right.

Gaby: During the slow time I’m like, “Just send a quick text like, ‘Hey, are you alive?” Yeah, we’re just working away. It’s been good to connect with other entrepreneurs and other busy moms that are kind of doing more.

Alyssa: Yeah and I think it’s important because we are definitely a specific breed of business owners and mothers. Because I might have, like this morning, I randomly had time to go for a walk around the lake and what did I do? I texted a bunch of people, but the only one that responded was the other mom who owns her own business. She was like, “Oh yeah, I can get out for an hour.” So it is good to have that network because otherwise you do kind of feel isolated. Thinking all of these other moms that work during the day and then at night maybe they want to get together, but that’s when I actually need to spend time with my kid.

Gaby: Right, right! That’s kid time. My free time could be, “Oh yeah, I can meet with you in the morning when the kids are at school.” I can kind of plan that out. But when I pick the kids up from school, I need to make sure that I’m with the kids because Saturday/Sunday. One day I was working on putting crystals on a dress and that was consecutive days of working past midnight. I think the kids came one day to the shop and they like slept in the stuff for a couple of hours. I’m just like, “We gotta get this done! We gotta get this done!” So we don’t have time blocks, it’s definitely an adventure to find people that match your schedules. Also interests, but also match the schedule of when you can free time and then understand that maybe I will be free three Sundays in a row, maybe you won’t see me for 5 months.

Alyssa: Yeah, I used to be able to plan ahead. Now I’m like, “I don’t know.” Can I go for a walk tomorrow? I don’t know, text me tomorrow and I’ll see.

Gaby: I will know an hour before!

Alyssa: Right!

Gaby: I think we’re maybe doing a month ahead of time. In my house with family events, I’m usually like let’s bring out the book of calendars. Everybody just dish out appointment cards. Like, “Here’s your Mother’s Day event, here’s this, and here’s that.” And now we’re just like, “We don’t know what we’re going to do.” Sometimes you’re just overwhelmed that you just don’t do anything.

Alyssa: Yeah, to have a weekend of nothing is totally fine.

Gaby: I don’t want to plan anything. You know what sounds good? Just being home, and cooking, and eating.

Alyssa: I think it’s the other side of owning a business that people don’t realize. You know, “Oh, you have so much free time.” Or, “Oh, you run your own schedule.” But there’s this opposite side of it where you do feel, like I said, isolated or that nobody quite understands. So I love these mom groups, like how I met you at the Mom Brain group. There’s always something to talk about because we’re always going through these same struggles. They might be a little bit different, but deep down we’re moms and we own our own businesses and we know what it’s like to be like, “Oh, yeah. I’m working until midnight tonight and I still have to get my kid up. I haven’t made lunch for school. Oh, yeah, and it’s library day and I don’t know where the library book is.” All these 20 little things, all these little details, but you still have a business to run.

Gaby: Right. There’s still something else that kind of, depending, is like two different … which, being a mom in itself has so many independent tasks that happen individually. Like these completely unrelated tasks that happen independently.

Alyssa: Mm-hmm, but we’re doing them simultaneously, often.

Gaby: Yes, yes! With two different children. One is your business and two is your actual kids that are kind of just, “I need all this stuff.” And then all of a sudden, business might have an emergency or your kid might have an emergency and if you don’t build those connections, you might be left struggling a little bit.

Alyssa: Well, it would be really easy to burn out. If you didn’t have, like you said, if you didn’t work with your family and it’s super close to home, you have that support network built in. If somebody owned a business, had children, didn’t have family, didn’t have friends, didn’t have a support network, and had no plan in place for these emergencies, whether it was family or business, you burn out.

Gaby: Yeah, I would imagine you’d just kind of be sitting there feeling lonely. It’s not even like, “Somebody come and help!” But it’s just the pure connection of like, “I just want to talk to somebody.” Or just a quick text to kind of get your mind out of maybe something serious that’s happening. Okay, then you can relax and go back and focus on your job, or your kids, or whatever it is. That’s so important to be able to have that extra support, in a multitude of forms, kind of sprinkled all over your life so that you can progress and move through the really hard, complicated times. In the end, you love your job. That’s why you’re doing it! That’s why we’re crazy still there. We’re still holding on because you love what you do.

Alyssa: Yeah, you work with brides who are in this specific zone and we’re working with new moms who are in this specific zone. Although many of our clients are probably, I’d say the majority of them are married, we do have some who are pregnant and then getting married or getting married while pregnant. So do you work with clients who are pregnant and need a dress? You say the minority, that would be the minority. How do you help? How does that dress grow with the belly if they’re not getting married right away?

Gaby: It definitely depends. The first thing for us is to make that bride feel comfortable. Some brides are just chill, they’re just loving it, they’re embracing what is happening. Some brides are nervous in the way of like, “This is not how I envisioned it.” Or it was how they envisioned it and they were fine with it, but there’s an outside pressure. So we want to make sure that that is relieved. Because once you are in a good, happy, neutral position, you can really see yourself in a wedding dress, calmy. Not like, “I need to cover this or I need to cover that.” You just want something that fits and that’s comfortable and it depends. Some brides are going to grow, right? They’re still going to be pregnant when they get married, so we have to talk about that. Are you going to come in the week before for alterations? Are we going to hold out until the week before? Couple of days before? Alter it and then it will fit and then take it? So it might be a last minute alteration. Or sometimes they buy it when they’re pregnant and then they’ll have the baby … it’s a bit of a guessing game. Are you going to buy it smaller? Are we going to allow for alteration costs to make it smaller? Is it a shape of a dress that can fit both ways? Are you going to be comfortable? Is it too tight for baby? You need to think about can you sit down, can you stand? Because you’re not as agile, though I’m clumsy anyway, so that was not a good clumsy pregnant mom that is wobbling through a bridal store was a funny scene. We just sit and talk with them and say, “How are you feeling?” Some moms have had multiple kids, so they’re like, “I don’t grow” or, “Tomorrow I’m going to be double the size. I’m just telling you for now.” And that’ll be fine. I had one bride, she was so sweet. She was like, “I’m going to be this size by the time I get married.” And she was. She knew! She’d already had children, so she was like, “I’m pregnant, I’m going to give birth and my body’s going to go relatively back to normal by the time I’m there.” It really ends up being a matter of a last minute alteration and just understanding that we just need mom and baby to be comfortable. If you want a nice, snug dress, it might have to be a different fabric versus a more stretchier fabric. Not because we can’t make it fit, I mean you can cut anything to fit anything, but just because it’s a little bit more flexible and movable, and not so restricting. Just a little bit more of guiding and consulting and you’re going to look beautiful! Everything’s going to come out good. Don’t worry about it!

Alyssa: So if we have any moms who are thinking about getting married, where do they find you? Tell us website, phone number, address. What’s the best place for people to find you?

Gaby: Yeah, well we have multiple ways of contacting us. We are on 28th Street, pasT Burlingame. We are next to Marge’s Donuts, so if you’re pregnant it’s always good.

Alyssa: I was going to mention that. Like, “Oh!” When I came to visit you, I couldn’t leave without visiting Marge’s on the way out.

Gaby: Yes, stop by and have a yummy snack. We have brides that come in with a very like, “I’m going to plan [to lose weight]!” If that is your healthy goal, we’re going to support you and empower you for it. But we don’t want you to be like, you need to all of a sudden only eat lettuce for the next six months. We want to make sure that you are being healthy with your path and if this is how your fiance is seeing you right now. Like he proposed to you right now, he’s loving you, he’s going to care for you, he’s going to embrace you no matter what. We want to dress you how you are, not with the pressure that you have from somebody else. You can find us next to Marge’s Donuts. Go ahead, we support your purchase of donuts, cakes, custard-filled pastries, bring us one on the way back if you’re coming before! We are on Facebook, it’s Connie’s Bridal. You can find us on Instagram, you can give us a call at (616) 455-5233. Our website is the same, which I think nowadays is the easiest thing to do.

Alyssa: Cool. What about the LGBTQ community? Have you ever had two brides? Because we do get calls from-

Gaby: Yeah, of course. Like I said, that’s our main focus is to make you feel comfortable, and empowered in your decision. If you’re wanting a suit, if you’re wanting two dresses, if you want a mini dress, if you want to alter something, we can do that. What I mainly see is the hesitation. Come on in, if you need extra time. That’s for any brides if you feel like you’re going to need extra time, if you’re going to need extra space, if you’re going to need extra quiet, or you’re going to need extra quiet because your support group is extra loud! We like to accommodate for that. Two bridess, we just want to support and celebrate alongside of you.

Alyssa: I love it. Thank you for sharing.

Gaby: Yeah, you’re welcome.

Alyssa: So yeah, check her out if you’re in the market for a wedding dress. As always, you can find us at goldcoastdoulas.com, Instagram, Facebook, and you can listen to our podcasts on SoundCloud and iTunes.

The Minority Bride: Podcast Episode #78 Read More »