Kristin Revere and Jacqueline Kincer discuss how partners can support breastfeeding and pumping on the latest episode of Ask the Doulas podcast. Jacqueline is a breastfeeding expert and CEO of Holistic Lactation.
Hello, hello! This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat today with Jacqueline Kincer. Jacqueline is a breastfeeding expert and the CEO of Holistic Lactation, where she combines her clinical experience as an IBCLC with a commitment to supporting breastfeeding families. With a background as a lactation consultant, Jacqueline has developed premium lactation supplements and leads The Nurture Collective, an online program offering guides, courses, and IBCLC support. Her holistic approach addresses the diverse challenges mothers face, emphasizing the importance of both practical guidance and emotional support. Jacqueline’s dedication continues to inspire countless moms and families, helping them find the solutions they need to define their own breastfeeding success.
Welcome, Jacqueline!
Yeah, thank you, Kristin! I’m super excited to be here and chat with you today!
Yes! And our topic is so important. It’s how partners can support breastfeeding.
Yeah, they can do a lot! I’m really excited because I think this is a topic that doesn’t get spoken about often enough, and it really should. This is an episode that your listeners are probably going to be like, hey, babe, I need you to listen to this episode.
Absolutely! So let’s get into a bit about your personal journey. What led you to focusing on supporting families with lactation?
Definitely was not on my radar at all. I was actually a stockbroker when I was pregnant with my first. He’s 11 now. Yeah, loved it, great job. I was doing really well. In fact, I actually got promoted while I was pregnant, and I saw myself going back to it, but taking a bit more time than the standard maternity leave in the US. But then I had my son, and I took a Bradley method class for preparing for the birth, which is 12 weeks long. And I read a book or two and did some research. I thought I was super prepared. And then this baby came, and I realized I was not prepared at all. And my birth didn’t go the way I had planned, either, so I invested all this time in planning a birth that is hours long, right, and then I did not prepare for postpartum. Initially, I had a doula. I had a midwife. I had the whole thing, right? They’re trying to help me with this latch in the hospital, and I even took a breastfeeding class, actually, but it mainly taught us about the benefits of breastmilk; very little about breastfeeding. That was not very helpful. I brought the packet with me to the hospital. I remember that and looking at it going, none of these things are helpful right now. It’s like the latch hurt. My nipples are bruised. What’s going on? And there was a lactation consultant. She came in, and she would just grab my baby, slam his head on my boob, and be like, yeah, just do that. And I was like, do what, exactly? I can’t – that seems forceful, for one, but two, I’m not able to do that. And she would walk out, and that’s it.
So I go home thinking, okay, well, this is just how it is. I was determined to breastfeed, for whatever reason. I don’t know, it just didn’t really enter my mind to not do it, I guess. I didn’t know anything about formula. It wasn’t something I’d researched. I wasn’t having an issue making milk, so that was good. Well, I didn’t really know, but it didn’t seem like it, right? I mean, he had diapers and he was putting on weight.
I went to the pediatrician. She was also a lactation consultant, an actual IBCLD.
Nice! That’s rare!
Yeah! I chose her specifically for that reason. So I go to her, and I was like, it really hurts. You know, what about this position, or this one? I figured I just needed a different position. And she was like, stop worrying about the position. Just do the basic whatever works. And I was like, okay. But there was no discussion about how breastfeeding was painful for me and that it was potentially a problem or any of that.
So then fast forward to six weeks postpartum. I go to my first Le Leche League meeting, which I think was the first time I had left the house myself with the baby and not with my husband or someone else. And I heard at that meeting for the first time ever that breastfeeding isn’t supposed to be painful. What I did was I got internally angry because I was like, well, breastfeeding is painful for me. There wasn’t a solution. It was just part of a discussion that they were having in the meeting, and it certainly wasn’t an affront to me. No one even knew breastfeeding was painful for me. I hadn’t brought it up. But then I remembered just feeling angry. Like, what do you know? Breastfeeding is painful. And I just felt alone and rejected and I don’t know; it was weird.
So breastfeeding stopped being as painful as time went on and I kept with it, and it wasn’t until – gosh, I don’t know. I got involved in doing breastfeeding support because I always – I felt like I just kept trying to figure out why it was hurting or why was he so fussy, why was he spitting up. There were all these things that I kept looking into. Like, is it normal that I leak so much? He has baby acne; what’s going on? I’m researching all of these things. And I guess I never stopped.
So then I decided that I would make a career out of it. In my studies to become a lactation consultant, that’s when I figured out, oh, pain is actually a problem, and it turned out that my son had a tongue tie and a lip tie. And once we got his lip tie fixed, which was when he was a toddler – he was 21 months. I was still nursing. For the first time ever, I experienced comfortable breastfeeding. It wasn’t painful at that point. If you had asked me if I was uncomfortable, I wouldn’t have said I was. But all of a sudden, I felt the difference, and it was crazy to notice that. Anyway, that made me super passionate about tongue tie and lip tie. I still wasn’t certified. I was still doing my clinical hours, but that’s what really got me excited about how other moms need to know this information.
Absolutely. Yeah, that would have been my guess when you were describing pain. My son, my second child, had a tongue tie, and I didn’t have pain nursing my daughter, but certainly with my son.
Yeah, it doesn’t have to be painful with that. That’s the other thing.
So what was your experience with your partner’s involvement in supporting you personally?
It was interesting. Again, I wasn’t prepared. I had no idea what it was going to be like on the other side of things. I don’t know what I thought. I think that’s common, though. I didn’t have any siblings. I didn’t have any other friends with babies, so this was really new territory. My husband was the oldest. He has a sister. So there wasn’t any previous exposure to raising and taking care of babies that either one of us had. I dove into research mode. I was taking a pause from work, and I had the time. Of course, he had two weeks off or something, and then he went back to work. And he worked from home, so he was here to help out. Like, he could stay with our baby while I took a shower quickly or something like that. He could sometimes hold him while he was on a conference call or something. So that was great. All of those things in terms of physical help were really great, but there were things where – I don’t know that this is uncommon, but it also is unique to me as a person, that I internalized a lot of things. I felt like my husband couldn’t understand what I was going through, why I was – he would kind of criticize me. “You’re just constantly researching things,” and I’m like, yeah, because I don’t know anything about having a baby, and you should maybe research, too. And I would try to share things with him, and he wouldn’t really read the article or he wouldn’t listen to the podcast episode or he wouldn’t look at the book. And so I just started to feel a bit of distance in terms of that, coparenting with him. And so I started a moms’ group and I really leaned into that and found my tribe of people that understood. I got most of my emotional and parenting support through that. But yeah, my husband, one, didn’t seem quite as interested in the parenting adventure as I was.
Very typical until baby is there. Then it’s a totally different thing.
Right? And I think he kind of felt like, well, she seems like she’s got this. She’s the one doing all the research, and she’s not working right now, so I’ll just let her handle it. But then over time, some resentment did build on both of our parts where I was like, well, you should be more involved, and he was like, but you won’t let me be involved. So I’m not saying – it wasn’t good or bad. There’s both sides. But I think we were just really unprepared and we faltered in our communication with one another. It was a rocky road at times.
So what is your advice, working with families and how partners can be supportive of the breastfeeding and/or pumping journey?
I think one of the best things that you could do is talk to people that you know and trust who have children, ideally have had babies recently, and ask them, what were your initial days like with the baby? What would you have done differently? What do you think worked really well? Ask those questions to real people that you know and trust because they’re going to give you the real story. No book, no podcast can truly ever prepare you, you know what I mean? Like, and what I mean by that is, I have a really good friend who I wish I had met earlier in life. And we had a mutual friend who was pregnant, and she gave her the best advice. I will mince words; I will not say it as well as she did, and she’s Australian, so she has a cool accent and it sounded even better. But she was like, look, this is going to be the hardest thing that you’re ever going to go through in your life once you have this baby. This whole transition of you becoming a mom – it’s awful. You’re going to be sleep deprived. You’re going to be this, you’re going to be that. No one really tells you what it’s like. But it’s also going to be the best thing that’s ever happened to you. That’s the best way to sum it up. Of course, I’m the woman, the mother who’s gone through it, so it’s sometimes difficult for me to really say what it’s like to be the man or the partner or the husband or whatever, but I think that’s true for them as well. And we can’t leave them out of the equation.
So I think honest communication up front. Be on solid ground with your communication with one another. You have to be open. You have to be willing to receive each other’s emotions about things and be curious about how they’re feeling and all of that because hormonally, for the mother, there’s all these big changes. Her brain – I mean, we know, there are real changes that happen to a mother’s brain very, very quickly during pregnancy but especially immediately postpartum. And you really need to have a good read on your partner and you have to have a good sense of how they’re feeling. You have to have great communication. So I think on both sides, but really, the one who isn’t birthing the baby is going to have to take on a bigger load for not just a week or a couple weeks. Well, forever, honestly. But it’s going to be really intense because your partner is healing. She just gave birth or had a C-section and that’s a major surgery, and she is going to need taking care of. But that means you have to take care of yourself so you can take care of her, too. So it’s a lot. I would just say it’s a lot. It’s not scary. It’s not bad. But it’s a lot.
And I find that dads tend to love to figure out the gear. I know my husband – my daughter was in the NICU, so he figured out the hospital grade pump that we rented and all of the gear that I hadn’t prepped for with taking a breastfeeding class and thinking that I would just feed my baby. But we had some transitions before I could adjust, so he loved figuring out all of the feeding gear.
Yes, which – see, that’s where I would caution people when it comes to breastfeeding because you think that you’re so prepared, and I know you want to put it on the registry so that other people can purchase these things for you, but there is so much that you don’t know whether or not you’re going to need or if you’re going to need that exact brand or item until you’re on the other side. Like, I always tell my clients, I wouldn’t buy bottles ahead of time. Like, unless you know you’re having a preemie or something, then buy a bottle specifically for a preemie. You can get a pump through insurance if you’re in the US, those sorts of things. But really try not to go nuts and just ask for gift cards or tell people, I’m going to be adding things to the registry once the baby is here, and that’s a great time. Because people still like to buy you newborn gifts and things. I know the gear is – what a lot of families do is they go and read reviews on products from other parents, but as a professional and seeing that not all baby bottles are designed well – in fact, most of them are not, and so you don’t know, right? Is this one going to cause your baby to spit up? Is it going to feed them too quickly? Just because some other family “liked” the bottle doesn’t mean it’s a good bottle for your baby. So I try to caution parents, like, other than diapers and clothing and whatever, those kinds of things – I usually suggest holding off. Dads are like, oh, I want to get all technical. Sorry, guys. Don’t, not yet. Be prepared; have options. Have a couple things. Or at least, I tell people, if you have these things purchased for you, don’t open the packaging so that you can return it in case it doesn’t work out.
So true! 100%. I’m a baby registry consultant in addition to being a birth and postpartum doula, so I agree with you.
Yeah, don’t open it. Don’t wash it. Don’t put it away.
Exactly. If it is purchased, hold off. You just don’t know exactly what your baby’s needs are going to be, as you mentioned. And as far as taking classes, an evidence-focused, very hands-on breastfeeding class – I know the one that we teach at Gold Coast is very partner-involved and demonstrates different latches and so on. Do you recommend that partners attend and do some preparation during pregnancy?
I do. I think just to be good support is knowing the things that your partner needs to know, especially during their recovery when they may not remember or their brain just went through something crazy and then they’re sleep deprived. We need someone who’s got it together to remind them, right? Hey, remember in that class they showed us this, and then you’re like, oh, yeah, thanks. And someone who gets it, because I think what’s really hard is there’s a lot that can be going on in the moment for a mom. Let’s say she’s trying to get her baby to latch and she’s struggling and her partner is right there. If she has to explain to that person what she learned in a class, like, now that’s just double labor for her. We don’t want to create a situation like that. He should come in knowing the basics and be there to support her. I think also what’s important about taking a breastfeeding class or going through that, for the dad’s side of things, is that it also helps them not give what they would perceive as supportive advice but really isn’t. What I mean by that is, I can’t tell you how many appointments I’ve had with clients where the dad will just say, “I just don’t understand why she’s doing this to herself. Can’t we just give formula?” And they think that they’re offering a solution, right, like a lot of men like to offer solutions instead of really hearing the struggle, and that can be very frustrating. But it’s well intentioned. Over here, the mom is in tears saying, I have put in so much effort and I am trying my hardest and I just want to breastfeed this baby. I want to have this connection. I want to do it for the health benefits. Whatever the reasons are, and for you to suggest formula is completely dismissive of my feelings. So we don’t want a scenario like that. I think most importantly, ask your partner. Hey, what are your goals? You plan on breastfeeding? What does that mean to you? Why do you want to breastfeed? What do you know about it? What are your goals? How can I support you in those goals? Just asking lots of questions and having a foundation of a great breastfeeding class, that’s an awesome way to start.
Exactly. And how can partners support with supply issues?
Good question. Don’t suggest formula.
As you mentioned, that is the first go-to, but I feel like there’s so much more, especially with your education, that partners can do to help.
Yes. Don’t worry; the pediatrician or lactation consultant will do that. You don’t need to, hopefully. I mean, if you’re truly concerned about the health of your child, then yes, obviously, please suggest that. But realistically, just listen to their concerns. Hey, I can see that this is really upsetting for you. Do you want to talk about it? Just asking those questions, being curious. Don’t make assumptions. Don’t offer solutions. Don’t come home with lactation cookies and lactation tea and be like, hey, I got everything for you. Unless you know that she wants that, don’t assume. Ask her what she needs. Ask her what she wants. If she doesn’t know, then you’re welcome to make suggestions, but I think it’s when moms don’t want to disappoint. They’re like, okay, well maybe I should try this. My husband bought me this stuff. Maybe it’s not the right thing. I think trying to get out of that solution-oriented problem solving and just talking, communicating, listening, lending an ear. I think also just reassuring your partner. Saying all the things that they’re doing great or that are going well. Hey, you know what? It’s awesome you’ve been able to give our baby breastmilk for two weeks. That’s more than a lot of moms, and I’m so proud of you. Just that kind of thing, that kind of encouragement. Like, look, when he’s latched, he just relaxes. He’s so calm. He loves when you nurse him. Or when she’s pumping, wow, you are working so hard at pumping for our baby. You are so dedicated. I appreciate you. Just things like that.
Affirmations go a long way.
Yeah, affirmations, listening, support. Stay away from solutions and problem solving. Feel free to make suggestions, like, hey, I see how hard you’re struggling. Maybe it’s time to reach out to a lactation consultant to get some more help. Instead of saying, like, I really think you should see a lactation consultant. It’s all about those kinds of things of just tuning in, asking questions, not making assumptions. I think pumping is also especially hard where sometimes dads and mothers-in-law and other people will say things like, why don’t you pump so I can just feed the baby a bottle? You didn’t really reduce the amount of labor for her if the alternative was that she could have nursed the baby. But if she is pumping because she needs to or wants to, you can be so supportive and helpful with washing and drying all of those pump parts and making sure they’re ready to go for the next time. Bringing her a glass of water, because as soon as that milk starts flowing, I guarantee she is thirsty like she’s never been thirsty in her life. Getting her a snack, having something ready and available for her to eat quickly because you get very hungry when you’re making milk a lot of the time. Those sorts of things can go a long way. If it’s the middle of the night, you already woke up. You heard the baby. Go and get the baby out of the bassinet or the crib. Bring the baby to her for her to nurse the baby, and then go lay the baby back down for her. Participate in it. Know the struggle with her. Understand what’s going on. And you’ll do great.
Beautiful advice. So how can our listeners connect with you? I know you have so many different programs and ways that no matter where our listeners or doula clients live, they’d be able to connect with you.
Yeah, really just our website is kind of the hub for everything. So they can go to Holistic Lactation, and on there, we have our Nurtured Collective program, which is a collection of courses but also a community. I didn’t really create it to be a course that you go through, like here’s the introduction and part one and part two and then the conclusion. It’s like choose your own adventure. If you join and you have a six-month old, you can go to the section for things that happen when they’re six months old, or I have a clogged duct, or whatever it is. You don’t need to worry about the rest of the content, although you certainly can. And then we have a community, so the members and us – myself and another IBCLC, Kate, where we’re giving you the expert advice. We’re encouraging you. We’re answering your questions. But then the other moms – every time one of our members posts or comments on another member’s posts, I am always blown away. It’s like – I don’t know. I guess they just follow the lead that Kate and I have set, and I’m like, you said what I would have said. That was amazing. There’s so much thought and intention put into the responses. We’ve tried to really curate the content in a way that you know when you come into it, this is not a hot mess mom’s group. There’s no mom shaming. There’s no – everyone is so empathetic and understanding. It is like a sigh of relief in there. I love the Nurtered Collective. You can kind of choose your own adventure in there and be a part of it for as long as you want. So yeah, we would love to have people. And then we’re really active on Instagram @holisticlactation.
And you also have supplements, correct?
I do. I don’t even want to come across as super salesy about it, but yes. Currently, we have two. One is the Advanced Lactation Formula, which is mostly meant for milk supply and breastmilk quality and postpartum energy. And then Lactation Flow Formula, which also is for milk supply, but clogged ducts, mastitis, engorgement, and those sorts of things. And then we’ll be introducing others soon.
Exciting!
Yeah, I made those supplements. They’re unique blends because I was recommending individual herbs or supplements to clients and then trying to take three or four things and then get the dosages right and it’s expensive and it all adds up. They were like, isn’t there just something all in one I can take? Which I get. Mom life, right? And I was like, no. And then they were like, you should make something of your own. I was like, oh, ha ha, I don’t do that. Here I am. I did it.
I love it. You see a need; you might as well solve the problem.
Exactly. And our course material is more like – like I said, it’s not exactly a course. Kate and I have put a lot of work into this where it’s concise, but it’s also in depth. You get what you need. You get all the practical stuff. There’s no fluff. It’s the realities of breastfeeding, what to do when you encounter all of these different challenges. So you don’t have to beat around the bush and scan 15 blog articles and watch videos on YouTube and all of that.
That is so beautiful. Any final advice for our listeners, Jacqueline?
Yeah, I would say that a lot of people, especially moms who obviously deeply care about these babies that they’re having, can be too hard on themselves. I’m speaking from experience. And what I would say is that the sooner that you can really know that you are doing the best you can at this moment in time and that you don’t need to beat yourself up. You’re not a bad mom. You’re not doing things wrong. Problems are real. Do not dismiss your own problems. Do not think that you’re a failure because something is not going the way that you thought it was going to go or the way you want it to go. Things happen. You’re going to be okay. You’re doing great, and you are totally not alone.
Excellent advice! Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom! We’ll have to have you on again!
I would love that! Thanks for having me, Kristin!
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