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What the heck is an antepartum doula? Well, it basically means bed rest support for mothers who are high risk. But a bed rest doula can also help families that aren’t necessarily on bed rest. Maybe a mom needs help running errands, finding community resources, preparing for baby showers, putting away gifts, nesting! Listen and learn more about what an antepartum doula does! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hi and welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I am Alyssa.
Kristin: And I am Kristin.
Alyssa: Today’s question is what is an antepartum doula, and I think it’s a really good question. We actually just kind of changed this on our website recently because antepartum is such a strange word. It actually refers more to our bedrest doulas, so it’s before birth, whereas postpartum support is after you have your baby. Antepartum support would be while you’re still pregnant.
Kristin: Exactly.
Alyssa: Do you want to talk about the role of a bedrest doula?
Kristin: Bedrest doulas can support at home or in the hospital for clients who are on bedrest for a variety of reasons. They could be carrying multiples, or they could have placenta previa or preeclampsia like I did during my first pregnancy, and they just need to limit movement. So we’re there to help, whether it’s in the hospital or at home. We can help even with birth plans or if they want to take a childbirth class; we can help with childbirth preparation if they are in bed for a part or all of their pregnancy. On the postpartum end, some of our bedrest doulas have similar responsibilities to our postpartum doulas.
Alyssa: Yeah, I’m even thinking on the bedrest end — let’s say, especially with clients with multiples, you could be put on bedrest at 22 weeks. Think about having baby showers planned. How do you do baby showers? If you’ve already had your baby showers, how do you unpack all these gifts? How do you put these gifts away? How do you get a nursery ready? Day-to-day things; how do you get groceries? You can get Shipt from Meijer or whatever, but every little day-to-day thing. If you have older children, who’s getting them to school? Who’s helping around the house? There’s just so many things that you can’t do when you’re on bedrest. It’s a little bit different with postpartum because you can still do many of those things.
Kristin: But yeah, how do you prepare meals when you’re supposed to be in bed the entire time? How are you feeding and nourishing yourself? If there are prescriptions that need to be picked up, who’s going to do that if your partner is at work?
Alyssa: Yes. We can help you run errands. We can help you prep meals. We can bring you to doctor’s appointments. We can…
Kristin: Take your dog out!
Alyssa: Yeah, and help with older siblings. Put away gifts and organize the baby’s room and fix the closet situation that’s overflowing and falling over when you open the doors. All the things that we get around the 35 week mark when you feel like you’re nesting and you want to get everything done, and you can’t because you’re in a bed. So I think that’s probably some of the major things for bedrest support.
Kristin: Yeah, and certainly community resources if they need to reach out to anyone or prepare for resources; if Baby could potentially be premature, so different support groups and resources outside of their medical provider that they can rely on after the baby’s born. And then also the emotional end of it is huge. I know I was only on bedrest a short time, but it was a big, scary time in my life, and to have someone to just process that with and know that they’re supported and not alone in this journey, that they have someone.
Alyssa: It’s so isolating to be stuck in bed for weeks; sometimes months.
Kristin: I mean, to have someone to talk to!
Alyssa: And then, too, we can bring classes. Gold Coast offers so many amazing classes, and we can bring them to parents in their home for women who are on bedrest. So with all of our classes, for a minimal additional fee, we’ll bring the class to you and we can offer you a class in bed, literally.
Kristin: Yes, so for our multiples clients, we have Preparing for Multiples, so if you’re expecting twins or triplets and you’re on bedrest, we’ll bring the class to you so you’ll know what to expect. Same with the newborn class that Alyssa teaches; amazing to have that option. And breastfeeding.
Alyssa: Breastfeeding support; yeah, a breastfeeding class while you’re still pregnant, and then in-home support once you have the baby or babies. I think just bedrest support in general is so important, but people don’t know what it is, and the term antepartum still probably throws some people off.
Kristin: And in the hospital, it can get lonely as well. I had a friend who was on bedrest in the hospital for 20 weeks of her pregnancy, and it was her second child.
Alyssa: That sounds expensive!
Kristin: Yeah, she had a good insurance, luckily, but I kept sending her care packages because I lived in a different city than her and knew that she had to just be bored out of her mind. So bedrest doulas are here to support you whether you’re in the home or in the hospital through the remainder of your pregnancy, and from that point on, you can choose to have birth doula support if you want or plan for postpartum support, but sometimes clients just hire us for bedrest support alone.
Alyssa: If you’re interested in finding us, you can see our entire list of services on our website. We are also on Facebook and Instagram. Thanks for tuning in. These moments are golden!
Today we talk to Courtney of Building Blocks Therapy Services again about how speech delays affect sleep in older babies. It’s a short one, but packed with good information! You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hello! Welcome to Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa Veneklase, and I’m here with Courtney again. She is a speech and language pathologist with Building Blocks Therapy Services. Hello!
Courtney: Hello!
Alyssa: Today I want to talk to you about sleep because I think communication is huge, and when kids can’t communicate, they throw tantrums, and tantrums don’t only happen during the day, right?
Courtney: Correct.
Alyssa: So it can really affect how a kid can fall asleep and how they get themselves back to sleep or their ability to get back to sleep.
Courtney: Yes.
Alyssa: So what would you say to parents who are struggling with maybe a speech-delayed child who’s having tantrums during the day and problems or issues at night with sleep?
Courtney: I would say that routine is one of the biggest things to stick to, because that is really going to help the kid understand expectations. A child who has a language delay might have difficulty understanding everything that’s happening around them, because not only are they trying to take in visually what’s happening, but there’s also so much that we provide to children auditorily, and if they’re not able to understand what we’re saying to them, then they tend to get heightened anxiety; they tend to get more tense. As we all know, as we get worked up, it’s harder to fall asleep. And so if routines are established, then a child is able to know what to expect. They start to pick up on these routines, and then they might start to build that confidence and the ability that they want to help complete these routines.
Alyssa: Yeah, kids really thrive on routine, and I always tell parents to start really early, talking to your child. I remember talking to my daughter — like, I would narrate everything to her, everything I was seeing, everything I was doing, and she always knew where we were going. She knew that it was time to change her diaper or time to put PJs on. I guess it’s setting an expectation from the beginning of what to expect, which leads to a level of trust because they know that you are saying what we’re going to do; I’m already telling you. There won’t be any surprises, and I’m going to react accordingly. I don’t know; I just think it’s the basis of this foundation of trust between parent and child.
Courtney: Absolutely, and that follow-through because it pulls at that trust that the child has. We are going to sleep; it’s time for sleep. I also think that children who do have a language delay or disorder tend to take in things more if you support them visually. That helps them build on auditorily what they’re hearing, so even pictures of brushing our teeth; reading —
Alyssa: You’ve sent me those before, and I love that. Explain that a little more. So maybe a 12- or 18-month-old that is speech delayed and isn’t really talking, but wants this routine, and maybe the parents are trying to set this routine. But they can understand pictures?
Courtney: Yes, they can! You know, as we help children develop, we give them picture books and we talk about those books, and as you can probably see, you know, a 12-month-old can open a book and pretend they’re reading the book and point to different things, and so they take those things in visually. They tend to learn better visually, and that’s not going to hinder them learning auditorily in any way; it’s going to help support that. They’ll start to associate, “Time to brush your teeth!” if you show the picture of brushing your teeth. They’re going to go right to the bathroom and know what to do. If they’re thirsty, to get that drink, or oh, now it’s time for bed. They start walking into the bedroom. And they will typically start to complete that routine without you having to say it, and their body will be at a calmer state. In essence, that’s going to help a child be able to fall asleep a little bit easier.
Alyssa: Yeah, having anxiety around the bedtime routine and then waking up — like, then the parents have anxiety because they’re dreading putting this child to bed, and they’re dreading when are they going to wake up? Are they going to wake up at midnight? Are they going to wake up at 3:00 AM? How long will they be awake? And then both child and parents have anxiety, which they feed off each other. It’s a vicious cycle.
Courtney: Exactly, and I’ve brought up before that when you go to a different country and you don’t know the language and you’re trying to communicate, you get so dense and anxiety-ridden, and you just kind of wonder, well, something doesn’t feel right, especially for a 12-month-old. They’re not going to know exactly what doesn’t feel right, and so they tend to act out because that’s how they’re going to release that energy.
Alyssa: Well, for the clients who are working with me on sleep, I’ve recommended some of them to you, so I will continue to do in the future! If anyone has specific questions for you, where do they find you?
Courtney: I have a website. I also have a Facebook page at Building Blocks Therapy Services, and you can email me at buildingblockstherapyservices@gmail.com
Today we talk with Dr. Theresa, Chiropractor and BIRTHFIT Instructor in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We ask her about what’s safe for a pregnant and postpartum mom to be doing and why having a supportive tribe around is so important. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud. Be sure to listen in or keep reading to get a special discount code for your BIRTHFIT registration!
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas! I’m Kristin.
Alyssa: And I’m Alyssa.
Kristin: And we’re here with Dr. Theresa today from BIRTHFIT. She is also a chiropractor and does many things, which she’ll explain later. So, Dr. Theresa, tell us about BIRTHFIT and why you decided to bring this to Grand Rapids.
Dr. Theresa: Yeah, so I have been in practice for about seven years, focused on the perinatal population, and I found this big disconnect in the postpartum time where women are preparing for birth, and it’s kind of like this mindset of, okay, I just need to get through birth. And we’re kind of forgetting about that postpartum time where the real work begins, because now you’re not only taking care of a new family member, but you need to heal and take care of yourself, too. So I really wanted to help with that time specifically and give women more information on what they can do.
Kristin: So when does a woman typically take your class after they’ve had their baby?
Dr. Theresa: We recommend the first two weeks postpartum as the coregulation period, so that would be way too early to take my class. That’s when you are bonding with Baby, hopefully not really leaving the house at all, and usually after that time, women are like, okay, I’m ready. So probably the earliest somebody has taken my class was after two weeks postpartum, and that was almost an exception to my rule because of her fitness level during her pregnancy and before. But for the most part, I recommend four to six weeks as a perfect time. But also with that being said, postpartum is forever, and I’ve had moms that are a year or two years postpartum take the class.
Kristin: That’s what I’ve seen on your social media posts, and tell us about how babies are involved.
Dr. Theresa: Yeah! I kind of time my classes so that, even though women are on their maternity leave, they may have other kiddos at home that they want their husband to come home and take care of. But Baby needs to come with Mom, and we totally encourage that because they need to nurse or they need to be tended to during our class. So we encourage moms to bring their babies; bring your favorite carrier, and we can implement them during the workout in a safe way.
Kristin: That is amazing. Do you find, since you also have a prenatal series, that women take that during pregnancy, and then you’re able to extend the relationship into the postpartum time?
Dr. Theresa: Yes, that is the goal, and my last session for the prenatal series is all about postpartum. So I talk to them about things they can during pregnancy to stay active and hopefully lead to better birth outcomes, but then what can you start doing postpartum at what time. So for those first two weeks, right away, women can start working on their belly breath, whether they’ve had a C-section or a vaginal birth. They can start doing that to mobilize their pelvic floor in a really gentle way, and then also reteach their abdominal wall how to come back together.
Kristin: You mentioned Cesarean. If she had a Cesarean, does the provider need to give approval at some point for her to start taking your series, or how does that work?
Dr. Theresa: Good question. So, typically they’re released for exercise, depending on the person, between 8 to 12 weeks or whenever the scab falls off is usually another really good time to start doing some exercise. And with those women, we teach the slow-is-fast mindset anyway, for everybody, but especially for those women, because now there’s a different pull happening when they move. So that can be a little bit scary, so we talk through those things; we talk through signs that, okay, we need to slow down a little bit. So it’s totally customizable to the woman and the birth that she had, which is also why I keep the class sizes small. They’re limited to about ten people per class, so I make sure everybody’s being tended to.
Kristin: Now, of course, you mentioned some of your students are very fit and they exercise throughout pregnancy. So say they’re a CrossFitter or they took prenatal yoga. What about women who were not in shape before they got pregnant and who are trying this and worried about their fitness level?
Dr. Theresa: Yes! Those are my favorite clients that I have in these classes because most of the women have never picked up a barbell before; women like that who have really never exercised. And when I first did this, you think BIRTHFIT; CrossFit — is it the same thing? And it is not the same thing at all, so I don’t want that to intimidate people. When I say barbell, that could be an empty 15-pound barbell that’s just there to give you a little bit of load, and it can even help you with your form on some of the movements. So we go really slow, and we really focus on form and breathing through each and every movement. And I love to see how confident these women get when they have a barbell in their hand. Or when we’re coaching pull-ups and we use a band to help assist them with the pull-up, and they have so much fun! They’re like, I never thought I could do a pull-up before! And it’s just the coolest thing to see.
Kristin: So what, of all the focuses you could have, why are you so passionate about the postpartum phase in women’s life? You’re focused, obviously, on prenatal, as well.
Dr. Theresa: So I think we’re really luck in Grand Rapids. There are so many resources for prenatal. There are some awesome childbirth education classes, and I see a lot of people preparing and taking multiple childbirth education classes and taking, like, car safety and CPR and all the things to get ready for a baby, and then postpartum kind of looks like this, where they go to their six-week checkup, and they’re released for exercise and maybe they’re given a sheet with exercises to do on it, like strengthen your abs and do Kegels. And it’s such a blanket recommendation that is not doing service to women the way that we need them to be feeling really connected back to their body through the four pillars of BIRTHFIT, which are fitness, nutrition, mindset, and connection. So I think those four things are so important in the postpartum time that women aren’t having the opportunity to do or they’re not understanding how they can do it postpartum. So I want to take each person and individualize to them: what can you do postpartum to really help fill your cup so you can take care of everybody else?
Kristin: And it sounds like a wonderful community. Women are often isolated after giving birth and they struggle with childcare or even wanting to leave their child. So they can bring Baby with them and find a circle that women are going through the same thing around the same time; some may have toddlers and be the “wise ones” to give the newer moms some advice. So I think that part of it sounds great because everyone needs a tribe. I know that word is overused, but it’s true.
Dr. Theresa: Yeah, and that is so fun, to see them exchanging phone numbers. This summer is the first year — because I just finished up my first year of BIRTHFIT. I started in 2018, so now I’m on my second cycle of it, and we’re going to do a meet-up this summer where, whether it’s going out for coffee or meeting in a park or whatever, because women are asking for that. They want to see the people that they took class with; they want to talk to other people. So I really loved that. We also have a private Facebook group, so they’re able to still keep in touch that way, too.
Kristin: And then you’re able to give them resources in the community if they need to see a pelvic floor therapist. I know you said you work on the pelvic floor, but they need recommendations, and as an expert, you’re able to give them.
Dr. Theresa: Absolutely.
Kristin: And postpartum doula recommendations and sleep and lactation and whatever they might be looking for?
Dr. Theresa: Yes, exactly, and I really keep that door open. We always have, during each class — so we meet twice a week for four weeks during the series. At each class, there’s a workout, but then there’s always an education component, whether I’m having my good friend Emily VanHOeven from Spectrum Health, who’s a pelvic floor PT; she comes in and gives a really awesome presentation and answers questions for these women. I have a nutritionist come in, Jenna Hibler, who you guys had interviewed. She comes in and talks about nutrition. So I have these different resources and topics, depending on — and sometimes it changes, depending on the needs of the group. I kind of ask them in the beginning what they’re looking for and what they need, so that way I make sure, at some point, they’re getting that.
Kristin: That’s great!
Dr. Theresa: Yeah, it’s really fun!
Kristin: Alyssa, is anything coming to mind for you?
Alyssa: Where were you six years ago?! Because, yeah, it was really hard to find things to bring my daughter to with me postpartum. And I know some moms are like, no, I don’t want to bring my kid with me; I’m coming alone. This is my time. But when that’s not an option, it’s good to have a place that you can bring your baby, even if it’s just in a car seat right next to you. I mean, I’ve done that before, too.
Dr. Theresa: Absolutely, yeah. And the postpartum series takes place at the CrossFit gym I go to, CrossFit 616, and they have a childcare room there, which you never see. Especially in a CrossFit gym, it’s unheard of. And we’ve had a baby boom in the last couple of years within our gym, so it is not uncommon to see women breastfeeding just at the gym, out in the open, and it’s not uncommon to see somebody else holding somebody else’s baby and just kind of helping out. So it’s a great community.
Kristin: Yeah, I would not picture a childcare room in CrossFit at all!
Dr. Theresa: There’s a TV; they have PBS Kids. It’s pretty nice.
Kristin: I’ve supported some birth doula clients who were CrossFit, and they were incredibly strong and determined. So, yeah, I’m inspired that they’re so healthy that they could exercise in that way through the entire pregnancy.
Dr. Theresa: Exactly, and those are sometimes the hardest ones to teach that slow-is-fast mindset, and there have been several high-level CrossFitter women coming out now, like athletes coming out and saying, I really wish that after my first baby, I had done this differently because I did some serious damage just starting too soon. And then after they have their second baby, they’re like, I’m doing this differently and slowing down.
Alyssa: I like that you talk about breathing, even just having that breath, like that yoga breath, of when you breathe in, your stomach should expand, and that actually helps your pelvic floor. You don’t know that — I didn’t know that until I saw a pelvic floor therapist. I’m, like, breathing helps make my pelvic floor stronger? And it does! And how slow and gentle that is for somebody who just gave birth, no matter whether you had a Cesarean or a vaginal birth; that slow movement makes you stronger. Your breath makes you stronger.
Dr. Theresa: Absolutely. Those are our top pelvic floor tips: belly breathing and LuLuLemon high-waisted pants because they give just enough compression without too much downward pressure.
Kristin: And the focus on nutrition is key. Woman are so depleted, especially if they’re breastfeeding, so making sure that that’s part of the class and having someone who specializes in nutrition speaking — I love that you bring in experts.
Alyssa: If you want to ever talk about sleep, I would love to come in and talk about sleep.
Dr. Theresa: Yes! I am always looking for people who want to come in and talk to these women because it takes some of the pressure off of me, too, and they don’t have to listen to me talk the whole time. It’s nice to hear from an expert! That would be great! And a postpartum doula — I think a lot of women don’t know that’s a thing. That’s big.
Kristin: And I think of it as more of the tasks that we do as postpartum doulas, like someone to clean up or do meal preparation, and caring for the baby, but we are caring the whole baby and setting up strong systems and supporting sleep. So it could be anything from three hours in a week to 24/7, and so we’d love to come in and talk about our role and how we can support a family.
Alyssa: That would almost be better for a prenatal series, to get them thinking about it before. I think the biggest thing is that we plan for this birth, and then it’s like, what now? What do I do? I’m home alone with this baby. So talking to them about the resources that they have postpartum before the baby actually comes. Not that it’s too late; if you have a six-week old or a six-month old, you can still hire a doula, but it’s certainly more critical in those first few weeks.
Dr. Theresa: Right. And I find in my classes, it’s the women who are third- or fourth-time moms, even fifth-time moms, that are like, I understand why I need all of this stuff now to help support me. Even though you would look at them and think, oh, they must know it all; they’ve been through this — but those are the women who are seeking more information, I find, and they’re the ones hiring doulas and really trying to prepare because they know what they’re in for.
Alyssa: Exactly! They know how hard it is. These first-time moms are in this state of bliss, which you should be, thinking about all the wonderful things that will happen, but no matter what kind of birth you have, you’re going to be waking up every two to three hours while you’re healing. So you’re not getting the rest you need to heal. You can’t really exercise yet. You’re sleep deprived, and you are in pain. It’s hard!
Dr. Theresa: It is! It’s really hard! It’s so good to have support, from having somebody coming into your home to having that tribe, again, using that word, but having that tribe to talk about those things together. One of my favorite topics that we talk about during the postpartum series — and it’s totally one of those things I was nervous to even bring up because I don’t want to offend anybody, but talking about having sex for the first time. We’re talking about all of these things that other women are like, oh, my gosh — you, too? So having those resources to be able to talk — I think that’s a perfect thing, that you could have a conversation about that one-on-one with your doula, because I don’t know how many OBs are talking about that.
Alyssa: It’s a lot of what our doulas do postpartum is just tell them, this is normal; this is okay. Let’s normalize this. You know, as a first-time mom, breastfeeding is really hard and I’m failing. No, no, no. This is normal. Let’s talk to a lactation consultant, or let’s just change your latch a little. Some very simple things a doula can help with, but this mom might not even know she has a problem with latch. She might not know that it’s a problem that her nipples are cracked and bleeding. The doula can say, no, this isn’t normal; you do need to seek out additional help.
Dr. Theresa: Totally. Something that I’ve seen crop up a couple times lately are vasospasms, that they just have no idea what that is, so they don’t do anything about it, and it’s like, oh, this is a perfect opportunity to work with a doula or work with somebody who can be, like, oh, yeah, I’ve seen this before; this is what you do.
Alyssa: What’s a vasospasm?
Dr. Theresa: From nursing; it’s like Raynaud’s in your fingers where you lose blood supply, so the nipples turn white and it’s super painful. It’s like frostbite on your fingers, you know, that searing pain.
Alyssa: I get that on my fingers all the time. I can’t imagine that on my nipples!
Dr. Theresa: I know, yeah! And it’s things like warm compresses, checking latch; you can use some magnesium to help dilate the blood vessels. So some things like that can really save that mom some excruciating pain. Yeah, just talking about those things that people think are normal, and you’re like, no; that’s not normal. We can do stuff about that.
Alyssa: Well, and that’s the beauty of a doula, too. It’s different than a babysitter. It’s different than a nanny. Doulas have this vast knowledge and experience and resource base to share, and sometimes, it’s crying and talking together. Sometimes it’s just like, okay, go take a nap and I’ll clean up your house, and that mom feels like a million bucks after a two-hour nap and a clean living room when she makes up. It’s much, much more than that.
Kristin: And a doula, just like you, as an instructor, would have resources to say, hey, you should really check out this BIRTHFIT postpartum series, or you need to go see a chiropractor, or there are some things that you can do in the community. You can do to La Leche League meetings and bring your baby with you.
Alyssa: And I think that’s what you’re doing, too. It’s so much more than just going to work out. You mentioned those four pillars; they’re getting that, and that’s why they want to keep coming back and why it feels so good.
Dr. Theresa: Absolutely! And changing that mindset, because women want to come for the workout. They’re, like, yes, I want to get back in shape, and that’s kind of their focus is that physical piece. But we sneak in all this other educational stuff that they didn’t know that they needed, and they are able to leave with so much more than they thought they were going to get. I love that. I love seeing that.
Kristin: So, Dr. Theresa, tell us when your next series is, how people can find you and register, and any other info that is relevant.
Dr. Theresa: Yes! So this year, with the postpartum series, I also developed a workshop to do before the actual series starts. So the postpartum workshop is a two-hour event where we just focus on body weight exercises, more like floor exercises, which are great for that early postpartum time for Mom to get reconnected to her body. And it’s great, too, if Mom can’t commit to four weeks, but my goal is that women are taking the workshop and then they take the series, which builds on the workshop. So the next workshop starts April 23rd, and that’s from 6:00 to 8:00 PM at Renew Mama Studio, and then the series starts a week or two later; I believe it’s May 4th, something like that. It starts in May, and that will go for four weeks twice a week. And you can find more information on our website on how to register.
Kristin: And you said you had a special coupon code for Gold Coast clients and our podcast listeners?
Dr. Theresa: Yes, absolutely. So I’m offering $20 off registration using code BFLOVESGCD. That promo code can just be applied at checkout.
Kristin: Fantastic! Well, thanks for joining us today. It’s so good to see you, Dr. Theresa!
Dr. Theresa: Thank you! It’s so good to be here! Thank you for inviting me!
Many of our clients and listeners don’t fully understand what overnight doula support looks like. Kristin and Alyssa, both Certified Postpartum Doulas, discuss the kinds of support their clients look for and how their team of doulas support families in their homes. You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud. You can also learn more here about overnight postpartum doula support.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin.
Alyssa: And I’m Alyssa.
Kristin: And we’re here to chat about what an overnight postpartum doula does, as that is a question that we get asked often by our clients and our podcast listeners. So, Alyssa, my first question to you is, as a postpartum doula and sleep specialist, what do you see as the key benefits to a family in hiring overnight postpartum doula support?
Alyssa: Whether they hire for sleep or not, it helps the parents get sleep. So let’s say they’re not even hiring me for a sleep consult. Parents don’t understand what sleep deprivation means until their in the midst of it, probably at least three weeks in. Like, our bodies are designed to survive a couple weeks of this, sometimes even three or four, but after that, our systems start to shut down. So if you think about overnight support being this trusted person who sleeps in your home to take over all those overnight responsibilities so that you can get a good night’s rest. Even a six-hour stretch or sometimes even a four-hour stretch makes you feel like a whole new person the next day when you’re used to only sleeping maybe one- or two-hour chunks. A four-hour stretch seems amazing in that moment, whereas right now if you told me I could only have four hours of sleep tonight, I would cry. I would be miserable the next day. And you, Kristin, as a birth doula, you know that feeling. If you’ve had one night of no sleep, you’re just wrecked. So you’re running on adrenaline. You’re sleep deprived. So having a doula come in and take over all that responsibility at night — obviously, she can’t breastfeed your baby, but you have a couple different choices if you’re a breastfeeding mom. If you’re a bottle-feeding with formula mom, you can literally go to sleep at 10:00 PM and wake up whenever you want because the doula can just feed that baby every three hours.
Kristin: Exactly, and clean the bottles and change the diapers and burp the baby, all of it.
Alyssa: Yeah. So if your partner is feeding in the middle of the night, you’re certainly not going to wake up to clean bottles and parts in the morning. The doula does do that. But for a breastfeeding mom, you can choose to pump instead of breastfeeding because it’s usually a lot quicker. So you pump and you set those bottles out for the doula. The doula wakes up when the baby wakes up; feeds the baby; burps the baby; changes the baby; gets the baby back to sleep — and Mom’s sleeping this whole time. Or, if Mom chooses to breastfeed, the doula can bring Baby to Mom so Mom doesn’t even have to get out of bed. I was just talking to Kelly Emory, our lactation consultant friend, and she was saying that when she was nursing, she would just side lie and her husband would bring the baby to her. She would lie on her side, so she didn’t have to get up. She didn’t even have to open her eyes if she didn’t want to. She was still kind of in this half-sleep state, and then when Baby was done on that side, her husband would take the baby and she’d roll over and she would feed on the other side, and then the husband would take the baby away, change the baby, burp the baby, and do all that stuff. So she said it was amazing. She took over one shift of the night, and he took over the next, so she would get a six-hour chunk of sleep and would feel amazing in the morning. So you’re able to tackle all those everyday tasks during the day because you didn’t have to also worry about those at night.
Kristin: Yes! And I’ve also had overnight clients who prefer to come into the nursery and sit in a rocker and feed their baby rather than have me come in and disrupt their husband’s sleep.
Alyssa: Sometimes they’re sleeping in separate rooms, too, because they’ve become used to that. So oftentimes, my goal as an overnight doula is to have both parents sleeping in bed together again, or wherever you were before this baby arrived.
Kristin: Right, no more partner on the couch or in the guest bedroom.
Alyssa: Right.
Kristin: So as far as other tasks of an overnight postpartum doula, sleep is one. So we can get Baby back to sleep and if they’re working with a certified sleep consultant, like you, then they can implement that.
Alyssa: Yeah, I guess I didn’t answer that initial question. So if they do work with me as a sleep consultant, you can hire an overnight doula in conjunction with. So I offer this customized sleep plan for your family, and then our doula knows that plan, understands that plan, and implements that plan overnight.
Kristin: That’s amazing.
Alyssa: So you wake up again refreshed because you’ve slept, and then you have the energy to implement the sleep plan during the day. And then the doula comes in at night and implements that plan overnight. So it’s consistency because that’s always the key with any sort of sleep consult is that you have to be consistent. You can’t just do it during the day and then give up at night because you’re tired. Your plan will fail.
Kristin: And so who hires a postpartum overnight doula, and how often do they use the doula support?
Alyssa: Who hires them? Tired families hire them! You get to the point of exhaustion. I don’t think when you’re pregnant you’re thinking about an overnight doula because you truly don’t understand what you’re in for. But newborn babies sleep all the time, so they could sleep up to 22 out of 24 hours a day, so you’re thinking, well, of course, like, newborn babies sleep all the time. I’m going to sleep when the baby sleeps. They’re going to be feeding every two to three hours!
Kristin: They get up a lot!
Alyssa: Which means all day and all night, you will be up feeding every two to three hours, at least. So your sleep becomes these little tiny chunks. Because if you think if you have a newborn baby that’s eating every two hours, and it takes you an hour to breastfeed, and then after the breastfeeding session, you have to burp; you have to change the diaper; you have to get the baby back to sleep. You’ve maybe got 30 to 45 minutes, if you’re lucky, to sleep before the baby needs to feed again.
Kristin: And some clients hire us for one overnight to get a good night of sleep and catch up; other clients hire us every night, and we bring in a team, in and out, or have one doula consistently. And some of our clientele have a partner who travels a lot, or I’ve even supported a family where the mother was going back to work from maternity leave and was traveling for her job, so as an overnight doula, I supported the husband as he cared for the toddler that was waking; I was caring for the baby. And so there are a lot of unique situations, but a lot of our moms who have partners who travel a lot want that extra support, whether they have a new baby or other kids in the household that need support, as well.
Alyssa: I think it depends on resources. So if someone is sleep deprived and they’re like, I just need one night of reprieve, and that’s all we can afford and that’s what we’re going to do, then that’s what they do.
Kristin: Exactly.
Alyssa: Even if they don’t have the resources, oftentimes during pregnancy, if parents have the foresight to ask for postpartum support as a baby shower gift, they can have several overnights gifted to them by friends and family.
Kristin: Which is better than all the toys and clothes they’ll outgrow.
Alyssa: I always tell them, you’re going to get mounds of plastic junk that you’ll literally look at and say that’s hundreds of dollars’ worth of stuff I’m never going to use, and you could have had an overnight doula in your home so you could sleep.
Kristin: Easily!
Alyssa: So I think it’s just based on resources because, like you said, we’ve had people hire us for, you know, two overnights and we’ve had two months straight. So I think it just depends. I mean, I don’t know that it’s a type of client. I think that’s just kind of based on resources available.
Kristin: And we certainly support families who are struggling with postpartum mood disorders and anxiety, but that is not all that we serve as far as clientele. But for moms who are being treated in therapy, then we certainly are able to give them much-needed support and rest as we care for their baby, and we do have a package where we are able to lower our hourly rate for clients who are in the Pine Rest mother-baby program or are seeking therapy.
Alyssa: Yeah, sleep deprivation is considered to be the number one cause of perinatal mood disorders, so all these moms with anxiety, depression, up to postpartum psychosis — when you’re sleep deprived, you’re literally torturing your brain and your body, and it’s really hard to function. So sleep is such an imperative thing, and for your baby, too. If you’re not sleeping and your baby’s not sleeping, physiologically, that baby needs sleep in order to grow, for their brain to develop, for their immune system to function properly. It’s so critical for both parents and children.
Kristin: Agreed. So, really, anyone can benefit from it. Our shortest shift would be coming in at 10:00 PM and leaving at 6:00 AM, but a lot of clients extend that time.
Alyssa: I’ve found that a lot of people like you to come a little bit earlier, especially if they have older children. So if there’s older siblings, let’s say 6:00 comes around and you’re trying to get dinner on the table. You have a two-year-old, a five-year-old, and a newborn.
Kristin: That’s a lot!
Alyssa: That overnight shift tends to, when parents say, yeah, yeah, come at 8:00 or 9:00 when I’m going to go to bed — that very quickly changes to 5:00 or 6:00. So either that shift moves up, or it just lengthens. So the doula can come from, a lot of times, 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM, and they do a lot of 12-hour shifts because they’re there for the hustle and bustle of getting dinner, wrangling toddlers, helping with the newborn, and then helping with bedtime routines for two or three children and then taking that infant newborn and helping them get to sleep. Usually, it’s in that order. Like, the doula will take the baby and put them to sleep, and then the parents get to spend some quality time with this toddler who is usually lashing out because they are used to being the only child, if there’s only one, and are really, really seeking that one-on-one attention that they’re not getting anymore.
Kristin: Yeah, that’s the perfect time to bond, and they can read them a bedtime story and sing songs; whatever their nighttime routines were before Baby arrived.
Alyssa: Yeah, and that’s one thing I stress, too, with my sleep consults is just having a really good bedtime routine, and even if I’m doing a consult for one child and there’s others in the household, I usually ask about them, too, because if you’ve got three kids who all have a different bedtime, and each bedtime routine is taking an hour, certainly whoever’s last on that list is going to bed at 9:00 or something, which is way too late for these little kids. So trying to consolidate and have a system in place and just get a schedule that works for the family, for everyone in the family, is a really big goal.
Kristin: Awesome advice.
Alyssa: So you mentioned earlier that a doula sleeps when the baby sleeps, and sometimes parents wonder, well, what do you mean? What does that look like? Depending on the house, we’ve had doulas sleeping on sofas in the living room.
Kristin: Yes, that’s what I’ve done.
Alyssa: We’ve had doulas sleeping in a spare room. We’ve had doulas sleeping in a spare room on the same floor, in a spare room on a different floor, and you can make anything work.
Kristin: With monitors and technology now, you know the second a baby stirs.
Alyssa: So parents are always like, oh, shoot, I don’t know how this is going to work. How am I going to do that? We’ve had blow-up mattresses in the nursery. Ideally, you want the doula to be as close to the nursey as possible, so they’re the one, when they hear that baby, they’re up; they’re there.
Kristin: No one else gets woken up in the household.
Alyssa: Yeah, you want the parents to be as far away. So sometimes I even tell them if you have a spare bedroom in the basement, go sleep there, because even with one of my most recent sleep clients, the first night we did the sleep consult, the doula was there overnight, and I contacted them the next day: how did you sleep? And they were like, oh, I wanted to so bad, but I kept hearing this phantom crying. Even when the babies weren’t crying, they hear it, anyway. So it does take, as parents, who are used to not sleeping for week after week after week — it takes time for your body and brain to adjust back to, oh, I’m able to sleep again. So it’s not instant. It usually takes at least a couple nights to get your brain to say, I can sleep. It’s okay to sleep through the night. I don’t have any responsibilities tonight. This doula is taking care of it. And it’s just a matter of them getting sleep in two-hour chunks instead of the parents getting sleep in two-hour chunks. So a doula can usually do two or three in a row before they’re too exhausted.
Kristin: Just like a birth doula. We can do a couple nights with a client in the hospital without sleep, and then we’re done.
Alyssa: Yeah. So for those clients of ours who we’ve had for two weeks straight or two months straight, it’s several doulas taking turns. Otherwise, they’re just too exhausted.
Kristin: Right, and that’s where we sometimes will bring in a team if it is continuous care.
Alyssa: But I think ideally, with sleep training, I would love to see every parent have a sleep plan and then a doula for five nights. That would just be — I don’t know; I think the mental well-being of these parents would increase drastically if they were able to do both.
Kristin: I would have loved an overnight doula with my kids being 21 months apart; having a toddler and a newborn. It would have been amazing.
Alyssa: Well, and some people, too, think it’s weird to have somebody sleeping in your home. I mean, always, when they meet the doula, they’re totally fine with it, but it is a weird thought to have this stranger come into your home who’s going to care for your babies. That’s why I think we’re so adamant about talking about our training and our certification process, and we’ve done background checks for people who want us to.
Kristin: Yeah, and we’ve shown immunization records and CPR certifications and so on and liability insurance. We have all of that.
Alyssa: Yeah, because especially with a mom with anxiety who needs to sleep and knows she needs this help, but now she has anxiety because a stranger is going to be sleeping in her home — we need to do whatever you have to, to make that mom feel comfortable to be able to sleep.
Kristin: Yes, and we’re there to do just that. So feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions about overnight doulas. We’d love to work with your family! Remember, these moments are golden.
One of Alyssa’s past sleep clients tells us her story about hiring an expert to solve her daughter’s sleep issues. She is honest about the fears she had going into it, the misconceptions and myths about sleep training that were dispelled while working with Alyssa, and how on the first day they saw improvement! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hello! Welcome to Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa Veneklase, and today, I’m super excited to be meeting for the first time and talking with Dominique. She was one of my past sleep clients. Welcome!
Dominique: Thank you for the welcome! I’m excited to be here!
Alyssa: Yeah! So I want to hear a little bit about what was happening at home and with sleep before you reached out to me.
Dominique: Yeah. So she is 11 months now, and before we reached out, it was getting to a point where she wasn’t taking naps, and if she was taking naps, it was, like, 15 minutes at a time. She was fussy all day. We were having to rock her to sleep for every single nap and bedtime, and that took 20 minutes.
Alyssa: So you would spend 20 minutes to get a 15-minute nap?
Dominique: Yes. Yes! So it was getting to a point where she didn’t seem like she was getting good sleep, and then we were just getting so frustrated. And I know you can’t expect a brand-new baby to sleep amazingly and to sleep through the night all the time, but she was not getting enough sleep, so it was just…
Alyssa: And she was nine months when you reach out? Does that sound about right?
Dominique: I think she was seven months when we reached out, yeah, just because I had read that if you were doing some sleep training, to kind of wait until about six months, so we decided to reach out around seven months, yeah.
Alyssa: I have different opinions about when to reach out!
Dominique: We may have waited a little too long!
Alyssa: Well, even by six months, that’s six months of forming some really bad sleep habits. And so before then, it’s really more of healthy sleep habits. You can’t really train a nine-week old baby. They’re not ready to sleep through the night, but there are some really healthy things that you can start incorporating during the day and at night to set yourself up for success at six months. So, yeah, it would have been a lot easier if you’d reached out earlier, but I’m glad you didn’t wait until 18 months!
Dominique: Yeah, I’m glad too, and I think if we have more kids in the future, we probably will incorporate some of the stuff that we learned, yeah.
Alyssa: Start a little earlier, yeah. So were you hesitant to start? What kind of fears or maybe even misconceptions did you have about sleep training before I worked with you?
Dominique: So I guess the biggest thing was that doing research and reading, I read a lot about crying it out and how it increases cortisol levels in babies, so they’re stressed out, and then they are learning how to cope on their own and they stay elevated, so they’re not learning how to be comforted, and instead they’re just crying themselves to sleep. So I was like, well, I don’t want to do that! I don’t want to set her up for not wanting to reach out to us for comfort, but then it also seemed like she was not happy because she was fussy and irritable all the time because she wasn’t sleeping.
Alyssa: So she was still crying all day, anyway.
Dominique: Yeah! So I was like, okay, there’s got to be some other ways to do this.
Alyssa: It blows my mind that people can still find information about cry-it-out online because I don’t know any sleep consultant who — I mean, letting a baby cry themselves to sleep just doesn’t even make sense to me. They don’t cry themselves to sleep. They might fuss themselves to sleep because they’re hearing themselves chatter, but yeah, those elevated cortisol levels for crying for two hours? No baby should sit in the crib alone and cry for two hours. I can’t stress that enough. I don’t even know who recommends that.
Dominique: And people say, well, oh, so you just let her cry in her crib? Well, no, we don’t just let her cry in her crib, but she had no self-soothing methods. She wasn’t self-soothing at all, so it was just like she doesn’t know how to go to bed unless we rock her.
Alyssa: So from what you remember, how long — well, I’ll go back. When you got my plan, was there anything that you were like, oooh, I don’t know about this? Or did it make sense?
Dominique: I think it made sense, all the different methods that you had mentioned to us. They all seemed pretty reasonable. The method where you sit in the room and kind of back out —
Alyssa: Oh, a gradual withdrawal?
Dominique: Yeah, gradual withdrawal, yeah. It seemed worse. When we were in the room, it was like she — it wasn’t — she wanted to lay down and know that we were right there. It was like, why are you in the room and you’re not picking me up? So that did not work for her.
Alyssa: Yep, you have to figure out and know your baby’s temperament. It’s first and foremost what drives the sleep method you use, because oftentimes these ones where the parents are in the room with the child, it’s way too stimulating. Baby is either like, you’re here; why aren’t you touching me? Why aren’t you holding me? Or, hey, it’s party time. I’m going to get up and I’m going to sing and dance in the crib because you’re here. So I’m glad you noticed that.
Dominique: Yeah, we kind of figured out that it was better for her that we didn’t sit in the room, but it did help for us to go back in periodically and soothe her.
Alyssa: So how long, do you remember, until you started to see results?
Dominique: Oh, man. The first night! So I think we started with bedtime, not her naps, because we got your plan, and I was going to be off work for a few days, so that first night, instead of rocking her for 20 minutes, we did her bedtime routine, which was another thing that we incorporated. Instead of nursing her to sleep, I was nursing her and then we would change into pajamas, wash her face, read her a book, and then put her to bed. And so that very first night, we laid her down, and she cried. We did three minutes, and then went in for 30 seconds, and then three minutes. And I think it was two rounds. So she cried for three minutes; I went in; she cried for another three minutes; I went in; and then it was quiet in her room.
Dominique: And I looked over at my husband, and I was like, this can’t be real!
Alyssa: Are you kidding me, right?!
Dominique: So it was amazing. She went to sleep, and I think that first night, she slept for about six hours, and then she got up to nurse, and then she went back to sleep fine. So yeah, the first night!
Alyssa: Yeah, so a lot of times, it’s just allowing them the opportunity to fall asleep on their own. I can’t tell you how many parents are like, oh, my baby has to be nursed; my baby has to be rocked; I don’t let my baby cry. Well, three minutes of crying — it’s not a lot, right?
Dominique: No, no.
Alyssa: If you consider all the crying she’s done because of lack of sleep and overtiredness, three minutes is nothing.
Dominique: Nothing!
Alyssa: And that’s all she needed to literally soothe herself to sleep. That’s what she did!
Dominique: Yeah, and we felt good about it. It wasn’t like we felt like we were neglecting her by letting her cry in her crib. It was just like she put herself to sleep, and now she’s getting a good chunk of sleep. So we were really happy with it!
Alyssa: Yeah, sometimes it’s just kind of looking at sleep a different way and realizing that cry-it-out means you put your crying baby in a crib; you shut the door; you walk away, and you don’t go back in. And nobody wants to do that! I don’t want to do that! But, you know, talking about cortisol levels, it’s a natural response to anything. You know, your baby goes to the doctor; you go to the dentist. Our cortisol — it’s a flight or fight thing. The thing with a baby that helps bring that back down is a loving caregiver, so she has you and Dad right there. You’re the buffer in this situation, so even crying for three minutes, her cortisol levels might rise a little bit, but then you came in after three minutes, and she saw you were there. And I talk about sleep cues sometimes, like saying goodnight, I love you. You know, you have these sleep cues that you repeat, and then their cortisol levels go back down. And then they might fuss for a few more minutes, and then they’re out. It just happens!
Dominique: It was amazing!
Alyssa: Is there anything else that you had maybe thought that I would have told you — I guess were there any other surprises from those misconceptions? Anything that you felt like, oh, I can’t believe she’s telling me to do this, or I can’t believe she’s not telling me to do that?
Dominique: I guess in the first email we got with the plan, I think you had said her first nap should be 60 to 90 minutes, and then her second nap should be 90 to 120 minutes, and I was, like, there’s no way she’s going to sleep! Up until that point, her naps had been maybe a half an hour during the day, and she was getting maybe two naps a day. So then we tried it with her naps, and she did sleep an hour that first nap, and then we got a couple of longer hour and a half naps. We’ve only gotten a few two-hour naps out of her, but that was a big shock because I was, like, man, she really hasn’t been getting as much sleep as she should have been getting.
Alyssa: Well, and it’s funny because we think she’s so tired during the day; she’s not napping; she just has to be tired enough to sleep all night. And it’s counterintuitive. They need sleep during the day so they don’t get overly tired, and then they don’t fight sleep at night. So right now, at 11 months, though, that morning nap should only be 30 minutes, FYI. I don’t know what you’re doing right now.
Dominique: So her naps have still been a little bit of a battle, and we’ve kind of gotten to a point where we’re letting her sleep for that first nap because that seems to be her best nap of the day, and if we cut it short, sometimes she doesn’t take a good nap the rest of the day. So we’re still kind of tweaking that a little bit because —
Alyssa: Is she sleeping through the night with one feed, then?
Dominique: Yes, and we’ve cut out her nighttime feed now.
Alyssa: So she can go all night, like a full twelve hours?
Dominique: Not a full twelve. She will sleep from about 6:30 and then she’s still waking up around 4:30, 5:00, so then we put her back to sleep. So it’s not perfect, but we haven’t quite figured out how to make those little switches. So shortening her first nap, lengthening her second nap, and then putting her to bed closer to 7:00.
Alyssa: Yeah, so having a really long morning nap encourages that early morning wakeup. So I would try for a later bedtime; 7:00, 7:30. And don’t let her sleep longer than a half an hour in the morning.
Dominique: Okay! All right!
Alyssa: A little added tip there!
Dominique: I trust you! I’ll try it!
Alyssa: Yeah, we want her to sleep from — I mean, not every baby will sleep the full twelve hours, but if she’s going to bed at 7:30, I would think no earlier than 6:30. That’s eleven-ish hours depending on when she falls asleep.
Dominique: And that would be nice because getting up at 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning is not ideal.
Alyssa: And then remember that 2-3-4 rule. So after she wakes up, she’ll be tired after about two hours, and then three hours after that wakeup. So let’s say you have an ideal — let’s say she wakes up at 7:00 in the morning. She should go down for that first nap at 9:00 and sleep from 9:00 to 9:30, and then three hours after that, which would be 12:30, she should have a two-hour nap. An hour and a half is fine; not all babies sleep two hours. But at her age, she should want to sleep about an hour and a half.
Dominique: Okay, and we have been doing that, the 2-3-4. It’s just she’s been getting up so early, so if she gets up at 6:00, we’re putting her down for her first nap at 8:00 in the morning, which does seem really early to us.
Alyssa: But she’s also going to bed really early. 6:30 is pretty early.
Dominique: Yeah, and sometimes by 6:00.
Alyssa: And you can’t just put her to bed at 7:00 tonight if she’s been up since 5:30. It’s a slow, 15 to 30-minute increments. But you have the added fun of daylight savings time, which messes everybody up. And probably by the time this episode airs, it will be past daylight savings, but we can still talk about it. And it might actually help you. So let’s see: spring forward. 7:00 is really going to 8:00, so her 6:00, 6:30 bedtime is going to be 7:30. So you might not want to push it too far.
Dominique: Yeeha, I think our situation is a little unique for that because we need to adjust her bedtime, whereas some people, they want to keep their kid on their 7:00 schedule, so they have to adjust backwards.
Alyssa: Yeah, you have to do it slowly. Like, with my daughter, I’ve been putting her to bed early; every night, a little bit earlier, to get her to that point. But yeah, I would try for a later bedtime, and that morning nap is what’s screwing up your morning wakeup. It’s just too long.
Dominique: Yeah, unfortunately! I’m like, okay, her morning nap — I’ve got to get stuff done!
Alyssa: Well, make it in the afternoons, instead, because that’s the nap she’s going to have until she’s two, three, maybe even four, that afternoon nap. And think about when you go to childcare; you know, naps at 12:30 or 1:00.
Dominique: All right, we’ll make some adjustments!
Alyssa: Anything else? What would you tell people about sleep consults that you think people need to know?
Dominique: I would say it’s worth it, and I’ve had a lot of people say, you know, what did you do for sleep, and then I explain what we did, and I say, “But we needed some help.” Like, it was just getting too frustrating, and I would just say it’s not cry-it-out like you think it is, just shutting the door and letting them cry, because I do think that’s a big misconception. So I would just say, look in to a sleep consultant, or just don’t take everything you read on the internet and apply it!
Alyssa: Well, and there’s so much information, but again, adjusting it to your specific family and your specific child, because I could have just given you, hey, my method is gradual withdrawal, and there you go. And then you’re doing this with your child and she’s like, this is not working. Yeah, it’s way too stimulating for her. So you can’t just give an end-all, one-fix method for every family. So that’s the hard part. You could read a hundred books, but you would need to have the ability to discern which method works for your family, and then have somebody there coaching you and holding your hand. And a big part of what I do is holding you accountable. Did you do this? How is it going? So that nap… We’re not working together anymore, but I can’t help myself; I have to tell you that nap is too long in the morning!
Dominique: But no, it was definitely worth it, and it was nice that you kind of explained the different methods and we could figure out which one would work best.
Alyssa: Sometimes, I know that there’s one that’s going to work, and that’s the one I suggest. Sometimes, I’m like, okay, based on your personality and your parenting style, I’m going to give you a few options. Here’s what I would recommend, but I want the parents to feel comfortable moving forward, and oftentimes, I still know which one I would recommend. Like you, you need to go through and say, oh, well, gradual withdrawal seems really more my parenting style, and I understand that it’s going to be a slower process. But you’re like, nope, didn’t work. So let’s move on to this one; let’s try that. Nope, didn’t work. But oftentimes what happens is a parent tries that one; it fails, and they give up and they’re done. They think sleep training didn’t work and it’s junk. So I get it.
Dominique: No! Keep going!
Alyssa: I get why parents feel frustrated. And how is she doing now?
Dominique: She’s doing really well. She’s starting to walk. Well, she is walking, so she’s very busy, so we’re keeping up with her now. But yeah, she’s doing really good!
Alyssa: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I love hearing stories from clients! Did I ever get a picture of her? I love getting pictures of babies. You’ll have to show me before you go.
Today we talk with Dr. Annie and Dr. Rachel of Rise Wellness Chiropractic to learn more about ear infections. What are the signs in children and how can chiropractic care help? Can it also help adults? You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. This is Kristin, and I’m here with my business partner, Alyssa.
Alyssa: Hello!
Kristin: And we also have Dr. Rachel.
Dr. Rachel: Hello!
Kristin: And Dr. Annie.
Dr. Annie: Hiya!
Kristin: From Rise Wellness here with us today, and our topic is ear infections in children, and certainly, we can also cover adults. So, Dr. Annie, I’ll let you take the lead on this. How can chiropractic care help with ear infections?
Dr. Annie: Crazy, right? So what we find with a lot of ear infection cases is that it’s related to how the nervous system is functioning, and so we find a lot of upper cervical, so upper neck misalignment affecting the nervous system, and affects how your ears drain. And so in kiddos or in adults, that’s usually the culprit, at least that’s what we find in our office, and it’s amazing what a simple adjustment can do to reawaken the nervous system in those areas and allow your ears to just drain and then allow your immune system to take care of it.
Kristin: Ear infections are no fun, especially with babies. I think the biggest thing is catching it early enough and identifying what the signs of an ear infection would be before it gets so bad that they need to go in and get scans and get antibiotics. So if they’re getting chiropractic care, then they’re able to, again, like you said, get drainage. But I think a lot of parents don’t know what the signs are of an ear infection, unless it gets to the point where it’s so bad that their baby is screaming and not sleeping. But there are some signs that I learned as a parent that I could catch early on.
Dr. Annie: What are those signs?
Kristin: My daughter had one when I was pregnant with my son and I had to take her in, but she was pulling on her ears. So if they’re pulling, and obviously if the ear is red — again, as we had mentioned in a previous podcast about that preference where if they’re not laying on their head on one side — so it’s just noticing what’s out of the norm for them.
Dr. Rachel: I think a lot of times they’ll have a cold, too, right? Because then that’s not draining well, so usually it’s an issue, and the bacteria builds up in there and creates an infection.
Dr. Annie: And it’s hard with little kids because you don’t necessarily — a lot of parents will confuse teething with ear infections, too, which is a big thing because a lot of drainage comes out when a baby is teething, too, so that can appear to be like a cold, and some kids will be put on antibiotics when it’s not even any sort of infection.
Kristin: So what’s an adjustment like for a baby with an ear infection or just too much fluid in their ears? Can you explain what that would be like?
Dr. Annie: Yeah, sure! So with anything, whether it’s an ear infection or whatever a parent is coming in for with their baby, what we’re looking for is subluxation. We’re looking for misalignment of the bone that’s affecting the nervous system there. And so we would do a scan to see how the nervous system is communicating at that area, and then the adjustment itself is just super gentle pressure with your pinkie. We say it’s the amount of pressure that you would use to check the ripeness of a tomato. It’s so gentle, to the point where parents are like, are you even doing anything? But it’s amazing what it can do. It will clear up the scan. It will help —
Alyssa: So you can do your little scan on a baby? Do they lay on their tummy and you scan them?
Dr. Rachel: Mom holds, and we can scan them, and then we’ll show the irritated area, which is usually in the upper cervical area.
Dr. Annie: It’s like every single time, we’re like, okay, we’re pretty sure this is what’s going on, and then we do the scan, and we’re like, yeah, exactly what we thought. It’s that upper cervical misalignment, that atlas. But the reason is those nerves that come out right there in the neck control the eustachian tube or the muscle that controls the eustachian tube. The nerve that goes to that controls the contraction of that muscle, so if that muscle’s not contracting, then the eustachian tube can’t milk fluid down, so then you get that fluid buildup in the ears, which is going to cause pressure, and a lot of those ear infection symptoms. Bacteria can grow in there, and that’s usually further down the line, but that’s why they are giving antibiotics for those things. So usually if you catch it, there isn’t even a bacterial infection. It’s just that buildup of fluid that’s causing pressure, that’s causing that irritation. So if we can correct that early and get that muscle working the way it’s supposed to, then the ears can drain and life’s good.
Dr. Rachel: It sounds like you’re catching an ear infection?
Alyssa: My ear started hurting yesterday, so I’m going to come see you and get adjusted! It’s on the same side that I’ve had that weird kink, so I don’t know if that has anything to do with it.
Dr. Annie: It’s all connected.
Alyssa: I’ll come have you fix me when we’re done.
Dr. Annie: Perfect!
Kristin: And I was having issues just last week with my ears popping or feeling like they couldn’t clear, and so I saw both Dr. Rachel and Dr. Annie, and I feel great right now! So even if it’s not a full-on infection, if you’re feeling like your ears are just not right, like they’re popping or you feel like you have water in the ear…
Dr. Annie: Or ringing in the ears, dizziness, stuff like that. I mean, it’s all related to that upper cervical spine, for sure.
Kristin: Yeah, it makes sense. So with a lot of these cases, they would need to just get in quickly, especially if they think their child has an ear infection. How would they go about reaching out to you if they’re not a current patient? How do they start that process?
Dr. Annie: They can find our information on our website . They can contact us on Facebook or Instagram, too, and send us a message. Both of those are @risewellnesschiro. Or they can call us.
Dr. Rachel: You can schedule your own appointment on our website.
Dr. Annie: Yeah, we try to make it really accessible, but we’ll also answer email anytime. We’re always on. Even if we don’t always answer the phone, we’re always…
Alyssa: That’s the motto of a business owner! You’re always on!
Dr. Annie: Especially with things like that, we want that to be your first response, to get your kid into the chiropractor. And so we want to be there for you when those situations arise. It’s not like a medical emergency, but to us, we want that to be your first line of defense, and then if things go awry from there, maybe seek treatment if needed, but usually, it’s not. Typically, we can clear some things up just by allowing the body to work naturally the way it’s supposed to.
Kristin: Yeah. Now, I don’t know a whole lot about tubes in the ear, but what — I mean, could chiropractic care prevent the need to get tubes?
Dr. Annie: So the tubes are to release pressure, so when I was talking about that nerve maybe not working or not communicating with that muscle the way it’s supposed to, if that muscle isn’t milking fluid down the ears, then you have that buildup of pressure. And so, often, to relieve that pressure, then tubes will be put in. And so what they do is they cut a little hole and then put a block in there so that hole can’t heal, because your body would heal it and just cover it up again, and then that pressure would build back up. So they put like a little tunnel in there to keep it open to relieve that pressure, like a pressure valve, but really, the need for that wouldn’t be necessary if things were working properly.
Dr. Rachel: One thing to note is if a kid has an ear infection, they come in, and they get adjusted, and maybe it clears up and they feel better right away, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t get another ear infection again. It’s one of those things, like, kids walk and they fall and they’re rolling and they’re hitting their heads. They can get a misalignment again, and that just might be how their body responds to that. So just because you get adjusted once and you get another ear infection later, it doesn’t mean that chiropractic didn’t work. It means that — like I said, my kids have been adjusted since birth. They get adjusted whenever they need to. It’s not like a one-time thing and then they’re good to go.
Kristin: And you said they haven’t had any ear infections as a result?
Dr. Rachel: No, they’ve never had an ear infection.
Alyssa: Well, especially kids — I mean, the amount of times a day my daughter falls or bumps into something — even me. I’m just as clumsy.
Dr. Rachel: The twins pull each other down now. They pull each other down on the ground.
Alyssa: Yeah. I probably misalign myself three times a day!
Dr. Rachel: Right. So it’s just one of those things, too, that I feel like sometimes people think, oh, they just need one adjustment and they’re good to go, but it’s also true that adjustment isn’t only good for ear infections. It’s just good to keep their nervous and immune system going.
Dr. Annie: Everything working in coordination.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah. And they respond really well to adjustments. Not that they have to come in three times a week; it’s more like just keeping up a maintenance thing to keep your kids checked.
Dr. Annie: That kind of depends, too, as far as what our recommendations would be, like how long that misalignment has been there. In a previous episode, we talked about birth trauma, and so if that misalignment has been there since birth, if the kid’s never been checked, and now they’re two or four or five and having chronic ear infections, it may take a little longer for them to respond, just because we’re working against time.
Kristin: That makes sense.
Dr. Rachel: So it’s better, like you said, to get them checked after birth.
Dr. Annie: Yep, prevent those things from happening, exactly.
Today we talk with a previous HypnoBirthing student, Annette Beitzel, about her personal experience with HypnoBirthing at Gold Coast Doulas. Although she didn’t use it how she intended, it had an incredible impact on her pregnancy and birth experience. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, and I’m here today with my business partner, Alyssa.
Alyssa: Hello!
Kristin: And we’ve got Annette Beitzel here.
Annette: Hello!
Kristin: And we are talking about Annette’s experience with taking HypnoBirthing class back in 2016. So thanks for coming on! First of all, as far as all of your options of out-of-hospital childbirth classes, what made you choose HypnoBirthing?
Annette: Honestly, I heard about it on a podcast, and it just sounded cool. At first, just the name HypnoBirthing sounds really kooky, like, oh, yeah, those people! But just hearing the person’s experience with it, it was like, oh, my goodness. This sounds like exactly what I want. I already had planned on natural birth at a birthing center. That was my goal, and so it just felt like it fit really well with what my goals were. Breathing is better than medication, right?
Kristin: Of course, yes!
Annette: So yeah, it just sounded like it fit well.
Kristin: Perfect. And did you have any reservations about HypnoBirthing, when you think of hypnosis? When people call our office and ask questions about HypnoBirthing, they get a little freaked out by the “hypno” aspect of it.
Annette: I think that because I heard about it on a podcast with a person who really explained it right away as just relaxing yourself; that’s what you’re doing; you’re doing it to yourself. Nobody is coming in with a watch on a chain!
Kristin: That’s what people imagine, for sure!
Annette: It was harder to explain to my husband. I was like, okay, just listen to this podcast. This will help you understand what I heard. Because it is; it’s one of those weird things. It just sounds that way, right?
Kristin: Right! And you mentioned your husband, so again, one question we get a lot about the class is that people feel like with hypnosis, it’s internal, even with self-relaxation and visualizations. How is your husband involved in both the class as well as your birth using that technique?
Annette: So in the class, you do all the same exercises. A lot of it is dealing with your fears and just understanding the process, and so men come in with those things, too, right? Maybe not the same ones or different ways, but they still have their expectations of what birth will be. And so I think he found it really helpful to really get an expert explaining what’s really happening, that women’s bodies are made for this. And then also they do all of the “hypnosis” along with the women, so everyone is doing it together. I mean, it would feel really weird if the men or the partners were just sitting there watching, but they’re involved. It was all group things, so he understood what I was doing. There were some exercises that he would sort of help me. I don’t remember the different things, like tapping or different things like that, and so he sometimes played a more active role. But also, I think, if I had gone by myself, he wouldn’t have really understood what I was doing in birth because the way it all ended up, he didn’t do really anything. And so I think he would have been, like, oh, my goodness; I’ve done nothing; nothing’s happened here; I’m useless. But he knew what I was doing. He knew I was inside myself. He knew that I was relaxed. He knew all of those things, and so I think it really helped him just understand what was going on and not be like, “Oh, do I need to do anything?!”
Alyssa: I have not gone through the class. I’ve tried to set myself outside of this as a person listening who doesn’t know what HypnoBirthing is, and I’m thinking it still sounds hokey. So when you say “hypnosis,” what kinds of things are you doing in the class, and why isn’t it hokey?
Annette: Right! Because it works would be the main reason I’d say it’s not hokey. So basically all she does is go through a reading of something, and she uses a very soothing, calm voice, so it’s easy to sort of stop thinking that you’re in this room, in this place. You just close your eyes, and you think about what she’s saying. I think the first one you do, she has you raise your hand as if a balloon is raising you up or something. And so you just kind of realize, like, oh, I can go outside of my brain. I can come back into my self-conscious, or I can sort of disconnect a little bit. And that’s all me. I’m listening to her, right, but it’s all me just choosing what I want to focus on, how I want to move my thoughts or my energy. So I don’t know; it does sound a bit ridiculous, and even in the first class, she’s totally talking about that. She’s like, I know this is weird. I know it sounds weird, but you’re relaxing yourself. Don’t think hypnosis; think relaxation. That’s what you’re doing here. And is there anything better for birth?
Kristin: Exactly, opening up and relaxing — that’s key to it!
Annette: So, yeah, to me, listening to a big explanation of what it really was from an expert was really helpful. These are the steps you can take, and this is how it can benefit you. But for me actually being in the class, it was like, yeah, okay; this is me; this just me relaxing; this is me choosing what I’m thinking about, what I’m focusing on. If I want to think about my fears, that’s going to make me tense up or stress out. Or I can think about a flower opening up, and I’m sure that sounds silly, but that’s sure a lot more relaxing than, “Am I going to go to a C-section?!” It’s what do I want to choose to think about, and how will that help me give birth the way that I want to.
Kristin: And certainly it goes over the basic physiology of what your body is going through, understanding the stages of labor and what’s normal, and for those birthing in the hospital, a little bit about what the hospital experience is like, as well as breastfeeding. So anything an out-of-hospital class would cover, in addition to changing the language of birth. That’s one of the things as a doula that I love the most is just changing some the fear-based words. I mean, contraction already sounds like you’re tensed up, and just looking at “surge” as a more opening, positive word, and not looking at pain. You know, you go to the hospital, and it’s like, what’s your pain threshold. They ask you that, like, ten times during labor. So just sort of changing that language and using affirmations, which I love. Being positive and just being relaxed. And the fear releases you do in task — can you talk a little bit about that experience, of doing a fear release?
Annette: Yeah, that was really interesting. So I think that my husband actually experienced that one more deeply than I did because I remember the whole thing. I remember going in the book and pulling out pages and saying, I’m not going to be afraid of this. This is okay. I already know the facts because we’ve gone over what do I expect. Can my body handle this? Very likely, yes! And so for him, he doesn’t remember it at all. He was so relaxed and so into it that he — which is an interesting aspect. Talking about the different affirmations and stuff, you listen to something that’s about 30 minutes long every night, and to me, that was one of the main things that I really did that was super consistent. I listened to it every single night, and it’s Rainbow Relaxation. So it goes through all these colors of the rainbow, and I think by the second color of the rainbow, I’d be asleep every night. And she was like, that’s totally fine. You can sleep, and it’s relaxing, and you’re still hearing it, and it’s fine. And I remember a couple of times, I would wake up at the end, which means I wasn’t actually asleep, I was just in that super entranced state where I was really relaxed, really in my subconscious and feeling it. And it was just such a weird feeling, because you’re like, oh, my goodness; I was awake this whole time. I was hearing these things, but I didn’t really feel that awake. So it’s amazing what your brain can do and just how relaxed you can really get. So with the fear, I don’t think that I came in with the same fears that a lot of people do. I already had two sisters-in-law go through natural births at birthing centers, so I was kind of like, yeah, this it totally doable. I’m not experiencing terrifying birth stories all the time. I came in with relatively positive expectations. And then going through the actual information part of it, it’s amazing. I mean, she really explains to you what is this; how does it work. Your body is made to do this! Now, I have to caveat that my sister-in-law — another one — her pelvis cannot. It doesn’t work. So it doesn’t work for everyone, but for the vast majority, our bodies can do this. And that was my experience, too. I didn’t do anything for labor. It was just there, and he came out, and there we were. I don’t think that the fear thing for me was the biggest part of it. The biggest thing for me was the relaxation, and even through my whole pregnancy, I had a miserable pregnancy. I had SPD starting at 14 weeks, which is symphysis pubis dysfunction. I could not walk without excruciating pain. I couldn’t put my pants on. I couldn’t do anything; it was just horrible. And I was pretty down about it. It was really frustrating because I was going to be the active, pregnant woman that was going out walking all the time and keeping active, and I just couldn’t. Talking to Ashley about that, she just helped me reframe everything, and the last couple of months of my pregnancy were just completely different. I was so much more positive; I was so much more relaxed and comfortable, and even though there was still pain, I wasn’t just grumpy all the time. And I had been up to that point. I would say my husband was probably really glad we took the HypnoBirthing, even just for my pregnancy. I was just so much more at peace, and it was so, so helpful with that aspect of it. So even before we got to the birth, I already felt like HypnoBirthing is amazing because look at my outlook on this pregnancy. It’s okay.
Alyssa: So you had the ideal birth where you said you didn’t have to do anything; it just happened. So what kind of tips or advise would you give for parents for whom that doesn’t happen or if they know they’re getting a C-section. Would HypnoBirthing still benefit them, and how?
Annette: Oh, absolutely! So first of all, I would not say I had the ideal birth. He came out without my working for it, but I actually had some really intense bleeding the night before. I was planning on a birth center and ended up in a hospital because my midwife just didn’t want to touch this; this is scary; could be placental abruption. You know, we didn’t know. So I checked into a hospital at 6:30 in the morning. We thought I was probably at a 6 or a 7. I wasn’t really having intense surges; I wasn’t feeling that much pain. It was there, but it felt more like Braxton Hicks at that point still; maybe a little stronger. We knew I was in labor. They had found that out before because I had actually been in the hospital earlier that night and went home. So at midnight, my water had broken, and 6:30, I’m in the hospital. We were like, yeah, nothing is really happening yet. But it was still a little scary. I was in the hospital and I didn’t really want to be in the hospital, but they went with my birthing plan, which was like an emergency birthing plan, which unfortunately I had to use. So I’m sitting in this hospital. She turned down the lights for me. She’s doing intake paperwork because I’m not supposed to be there, and I’m answering questions between the surges, and all of a sudden, I felt him move into the birth path, and I was like, oh, I feel him moving down right now. And she’s like, oh, good good! I’m like, no, no, he’s coming! And they were like, okay… And I rolled over away from her; I’m not going to answer any more questions right now. And they checked me, and I was at a 10. And this is six hours or seven hours after my water had broken. So it was so, so fast. He was born 20 minutes later. It was actually too fast. He didn’t get properly squeezed out, so he was vomiting up stuff the next night, which is scary in its own right. So yeah, they were, like, oh, don’t push! I’m like, honestly, anything that happened was involuntary. And then the doctor got there. He came out ten minutes after the doctor was there, and he was there telling me, you might want to hold your breath! And I was like, no, I don’t! I remember that conversation. I remember when he was crowning. They told me, oh, he’s crowning. And I was, like, wait, I thought this was supposed to be a ring of fire. Where’s the fire? And that was my thought while he was crowning. I was just relaxed. That’s all I can say. We did not have time for listening to any of the meditations. We didn’t do anything during the actual birth because even during the night, I was sleeping most of the time. So I feel like I barely did a HypnoBirthing, other than the fact that I was relaxed and I was breathing. And that’s what I really took from all of the classes and all of the work, which is part of the reason I wanted to do this, because it was like, hey, I didn’t even really do it, but it still worked, right? I didn’t spend 12 hours listening to relaxation things and breathing him down. I did breathe him down, but very quickly! So yeah, I had a second degree tear and there was all sorts of other things, but my placenta was getting old. They said that was part of the reason for the bleeding, and so there was reason for concern, which I would also say, the whole time, it was like I didn’t want to go to the hospital, but all right, here we are. I think just the knowledge of everything — I never freaked out. I wasn’t worried. It was just like, okay, well, this is what’s happening now. And just very — I think I was very go with the flow. And my husband and everyone else was kind of freaking out. I was texting my family because they’re in another state. I told them I was going to the hospital because there’s lot of bleeding and they think it might be this and whatever, and they were all freaking out. And then 20 minutes later, we’re sending a picture of a baby. Okay, well, I guess it was okay! So, yeah, it was an ideal birth, and also completely not what I was expecting or planning. I was going to be in a birthing tub all night long, right? That was my plan! But even without going along with the plan, it still was just completely changed how I was approaching everything, how I felt about it, what I was even thinking about. I was thinking about my breath and feeling him in my body. Everything else was so peripheral. Oh, there’s doctors out there. I even remember looking up, like, oh, look at all these faces I have never seen before. I think there were five or six people at the end of the bed! And I was like, all right, well, here we go then! And all of it was so — I just got the inevitability of a birth. It was going to happen. It didn’t matter what I was doing. It didn’t matter what they did. Here we are in this place that I wasn’t planning, and here comes my baby, just exiting my body. And I think after that birth, I really did believe and understand the women giving birth in a coma because it was like honestly — I feel like my body did some pushing. It didn’t feel like it. It didn’t feel like what people explain is a birth. It was just like my body helped him exit.
Kristin: You were breathing your baby down, as we talk about, the birth breath in HypnoBirthing. But of course, we see the movies where everything is traumatic and the woman is screaming. That’s not what the reality of birth is, even with a precipitous birth, which can be a little bit stressful and overwhelming if you haven’t prepared the way you did and having that relaxation. And even with your change of plans, in HypnoBirthing, of course, instead of a birth plan, you talk about birth preferences, so what you would like in an ideal situation, knowing that you may need to be flexible, which you obviously were, and you handled it very well.
Annette: Yeah, sorry, I forget some of the terminology. It’s been a couple of years. But yeah, it was amazing. It was, okay, we’re working with my midwife, so we don’t need to tell her what all we were going to do. We were on the same page already, but I was really glad we actually did walk through all of that and come up with a list of what we really wanted from a birth. And he was on my chest for two hours before they even touched him to do anything. They still followed all of the things that I wanted, and I think that was a really helpful part of the class. I was going into it thinking, “That’s not going to happen to me! I’m not going to be in the hospital!” But I was, and I’m really glad that somebody walked me through just saying what I want, if I’m in the hospital. Just lay it all down.
Alyssa: Having the knowledge and being educated ahead of time, I think, is a big part of releasing fear because you know what to expect “if,” instead of walking into this unknown. And then you would have been panicking because you’re in a hospital; there’s six people that I don’t know at the end of the bed; what’s happening to me? You were kind of like, oh, yeah, we talked about this.
Annette: Yeah, it was very much that way. I know what my body is going to do, so you all can hang out if you want.
Kristin: And we have students that have planned Cesareans that want to eliminate some of that fear or students who then have medical issues and then need a Cesarean. That can certainly be helpful. I mean, the situation you just described is just knowing how to plan, how to relax, to use your breath, regardless of how you birth.
Annette: Yeah, for sure. That would have been such a huge — I mean, I can’t imagine if they had said, hey, you’re in a Cesarean. I know it was all about — got to keep breathing. That’s what I need to think about! I’m just going to keep breathing, and this baby is coming. I’m going to be holding this baby soon. And if somebody, especially with a planned Cesarean — I know these women have so much fear around that. It’s a surgery; that’s a huge thing. And yeah, that class would be so helpful to process all of those fears and to know your body will be okay. You will be okay. Your baby will be okay. You’re going to come through this. I can’t imagine the difference in being in that situation, but with the confidence and the relaxation and all of that, rather than being scared and stressed out. I imagine that would be much more helpful.
Kristin: So, Annette, at what point in your pregnancy did you take HypnoBirthing? It sounds like you had some time to practice. You were saying you were listening to the relaxation tracks at night.
Annette: I think that we were taking it in November, and then he was born in March. We had a couple of months afterwards, which, like I said, was super helpful. Honestly, I would have taken it at the very beginning, after knowing how much it helped me with pregnancy.
Kristin: Yeah, HypnoBirthing is different than a lot of childbirth classes in that it helps to take it earlier in pregnancy so you have time to practice. Of course, we have students who take it right up until their due date and sometimes even go early and miss a few classes.
Annette: Yeah, we had that happen! We lost a student. It happens!
Kristin: But certainly, like you said, to have a few months or even taking it very early in pregnancy, where other classes, you want it fresh on your mind, especially if it’s focused more on movement and positions rather than the whole mind-body-spirit connection. That is one thing that I think is different about HypnoBirthing is it’s not just the physical movement and breath. It’s a focus on your inner being and peace and serenity.
Alyssa: Yeah, it sounds like it’s not just for birth, and I would venture to say that it probably helps — that you probably even think about it now in day to day. Like, it almost helps you when a situation arises just in life?
Annette: Oh, for sure, yeah.
Alyssa: Just breathing and releasing fear in whatever way you’ve come to do that.
Annette: Yeah. And I do meditation now, and I didn’t think that was a cool thing before, but now I’m like, sure, yeah, that sounds great! I want to get back into that space with my mind where I’m in control of things and thinking about what I want to be thinking about. I’m not usually going through the ones the instructor did, but it’s opened me up to that whole world of what can my subconscious do? And a completely unrelated thing; I’m now doing EMDR therapy, which is also very similar in using the relaxation and controlling what you’re thinking about and all of that. And I think I would have thought that was ridiculous, if I hadn’t gone through HypnoBirthing. So yeah, it’s amazing all the different ways in your life that it can continue touching you.
Alyssa: Our brains are powerful. They do a lot of good and bad for us on a day to day basis!
Annette: Definitely, yeah!
Kristin: So it sounds like your class had a mix of birth center, home birthers, and hospital birthers?
Annette: Yes. I don’t think anyone had a planned C-section, but there was a mix of all three of those, yes.
Kristin: And then another question that we get pretty commonly is for people who are very religious, faith-based, would this class be something that they need to steer away from? That’s a common – because of the hypnosis, maybe, but having experienced it yourself, can you address that for us?
Annette: Yeah. I mean, I grew up super religious. I’m not as much anymore, but for sure, I remember that being something. Oh, yeah, hypnosis; that’s something that you would want to stay away from. And this class isn’t that at all. It’s 100% you controlling what you’re thinking about and thinking about what you’re deciding to. It’s just all you. That’s all I can say, right? You’re listening to someone talking, but you’re choosing everything that you’re doing, and all of the images that you’re seeing and everything is what you want to do. So nobody is controlling your mind. Nobody is coming in and saying, drop this pen, and then suddenly you’re dropping pens or whatever. It’s all you, relaxing, choosing what you’re listening to, choosing what you’re going to respond to.
Alyssa: It really sounds no different for a religious person than prayer to me, right? Like, they could almost — it could feel like prayer to them, and they can call it whatever they want to call it: medication, prayer, hypnosis.
Annette: Yeah, it’s relaxation, right? That was the thing that I came away with, especially. It’s relaxing yourself. So if you want to go and learn how to relax yourself, then this is for you.
Kristin: Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Do you have any last words or tips for our listeners?
Annette: If you’re thinking about HypnoBirthing, do it. It’s amazing, truly; 100%, I tell every single pregnant person I meet: have you heard about this thing called HypnoBirthing? And then I tell them my story. It’s a weird one. I didn’t use it the way you’re supposed to, but it still made a huge difference. Even now, I’m like, I don’t know; did I earn the woman badge of giving birth? I feel like I kind of didn’t, but here’s my kid…
Kristin: You totally did!
Annette: So apparently, I did!
Alyssa: There’s the proof!
Annette: but yeah, it’s amazing. It really is, and I think it’s perfect for any birth situation, for anyone who’s going to give birth. Do HypnoBirthing. It really is amazing.
What do tongue ties, lip ties, oral aversions, and picky eaters have in common? Everything! Listen as two experts talk about how pediatric dentistry and speech therapy are both helping parents discover ways to help their children. You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Welcome to Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa Veneklase, and I am here with Courtney and Katie today. Courtney is with Building Blocks Therapy Services, and Dr. Katie is with Pediatric Dental Specialists of West Michigan. Welcome, ladies! I wanted to get you two together because I’ve talked specifically with Katie before about pediatric dental topics, and then with Courtney about speech therapy. I’m thinking they both have to do with mouths, so I figured we would have a lot to talk about together. So it sounds to me like in the dental office, Katie, you often are the one who sees these signs of speech delays before parents even understand that their child has a speech delay at one, two, three years old?
Katie: Oh, absolutely.
Alyssa: So they don’t see Courtney or call Courtney because they don’t even know there’s a problem yet. So how does that work? What does that look like?
Katie: Well, on a day to day basis, I am seeing so many kids of all ages, and I have these interactions with kids, and I have a sense of the wide range of normal in development. I can anticipate and see when maybe there might be something arising, but also a lot of any speech development issues I see really has a lot to do with their anatomy. So that’s what I’m evaluating as well, whether it’s tonsils or some kids have tongue ties or other ties in their mouths that can cause some issues with speech, and other things I’m evaluating as well that I find that I really need help from a speech pathologist, actually. And that’s where you come in, as well!
Courtney: And I also have parents who are constantly asking me, regarding any speech delays, “Could this be a dentition problem? Could this have anything to do with their oral cavity?” So I think that a lot of times that we kind of cross paths in a lot of ways.
Alyssa: So what about a kid who – is it called an oral aversion if they don’t really like certain types of foods or maybe textures of foods? Let’s say I’m working with a sleep client, and this kid is two, won’t eat much, doesn’t like certain types of foods. Is that a dental issue? Is it a speech therapy issue? Is it both?
Katie: It can often be both issues. I will see a lot of kids come in, and kids are always going to be picky, and that is totally normal.
Alyssa: Especially at that age, right, to a degree?
Katie: What’s interesting is research has shown that a kid needs to try a food 20 times before they will actually like it because you have to train your taste buds. So with anything, your taste buds are actually learning how to like foods, and obviously there are some foods that come easier than others, like sugar. That has other affects on our brain that we’re just going to like it immediately. Something like broccoli – yes, some kids are not going to like that right away, and there’s absolutely a chemical reason why. The problem arises when I am talking to a family and Mom is at a loss because he will only eat three foods. And I see this often, that he will only eat bread, hot dogs, and crackers. That’s not normal, I will say, and there’s a lot of reasons that could be going on. It could be so many things. It could be stressors in the home. It could be that he has some anatomical reason. Or it could be that he has a lot of tooth decay, and he has a lot of pain in his mouth, and he is very smart. Kids are very resilient and very smart; that child knows exactly what he can eat that doesn’t cause him pain when he eats. Quite often, though, there is something anatomically going on, whether it’s really large tonsils, especially in that two to six range. Their tonsils can be quite large, and that can cause some swallowing issues, and I’m sure you can touch on that a little bit more, Courtney. But also what I’ll notice quite often that goes missed a lot is if a child has a tongue tie. A lot of people don’t even know what a tongue tie means, but basically, our tongues have a tissue attachment to the floor of our mouth. And sometimes, that area of tissue is quite pronounced, a little bit too strong, and there’s too much attachment with the muscle fibers of the tongue to the floor of the mouth, and that can impact how well the tongue moves. And if the tongue is really restricted and cannot move very well, then they cannot manipulate food very well, either, in order to actually –
Alyssa: Yeah, you don’t realize how much you move your tongue around, right, to move food around?
Katie: Absolutely. The tongue is one of the strongest muscles in our body, and if you can’t use it properly, it’s going to be really hard for them to manipulate food around their mouth, chew the food, and thus swallow the food, as well. So I don’t know if you want to touch more on your experience with that, as well, Courtney.
Courtney: Yeah, so as we eat, our tongue has to have a significant range of motion to it, so especially if that tongue is tied in, we have to be able to actually initiate the swallow. We have to be able to push our tongue up against the roof of our mouth to create the suction to be able to get all the food to actually go down into our esophagus. But also, along with that, when you’re looking at different textures of food, you have to be able to manipulate it in your mouth. So if it’s going into your cheeks; if it’s getting stuck around your teeth; you have to be able to do tongue sweeps or to be able to angle your tongue to be able to move all the food towards the center of your tongue. So if there’s not that range of motion in there, then it’s going to be really hard for them to use different textures of food. So as a speech therapist, a lot of times when a parent will say, “Oh, they’re really picky,” I’ll look at the pattern of textures and what is required for the mouth, the tongue, the cheeks, and everything to do to manipulate that and see if there’s a pattern with this. Wow, they really don’t like those liquids because maybe they can’t control. Maybe it’s coming out of their lips. Or that bread, when you’re chewing the bread and crackers, that sticks together, a bolus, and it sticks together so they don’t have to manipulate that tongue as much. So we start to look at all that and their structure.
Katie: And with that restricted diet they have, it can trickle down and cause a lot of tooth decay because, obviously, those things that are much easier for them to eat and manipulate are going to be those carbohydrates that can easily cause cavities. So a lot of times, there is a lot of that simultaneously going on where they are having trouble manipulating foods, and then I see a lot of dental decay, as well; a lot of cavities going on. One aspect, as well, if they don’t have a lot of range of motion with their tongue, then they can’t self-cleanse their mouth either. So now that I talk about this, you’re probably going to notice how often you’re wiping your teeth with your tongue, moving your tongue to the cheek –
Alyssa: I never knew that was called self-cleansing! So every time you wipe your tongue over your teeth –
Katie: Yeah, exactly. And it’s just something we don’t even think about. It’s a natural reaction because it’s not normal to have pockets of food in your mouth and things like that. That’s something I even see a lot with kids coming in. I’ll see that they have food pocketing where there’s actually food stuck in their cheeks, in the vestibules of their cheeks.
Alyssa: That’s what I just imagining and visualizing in my head, that if a kid had a tongue tie and isn’t able to move their tongue over to the side, like if I have something stuck down here, I can pop it out with my tongue. So if they can’t get that out, it’s just going to sit there, which is going to smell and cause tooth decay and make it difficult to – I wouldn’t want to eat very much, either, if I knew it was going to get stuck down there.
Katie: No, you’re going to know what works for you and want to just stick to that, yeah.
Alyssa: So what other kinds of things do you see that might be speech-related, or is that the biggest one?
Katie: That’s the biggest one. A lot of it, too, is how you were talking about their orthodontic occlusion, so how teeth are biting together. One thing that can definitely impact speech is how your jaws are growing, how your front teeth are overlapping or not in the front, as well. A lot of kids who have had a pacifier longer, like past age three, have a finger-sucking or a thumb-sucking habit. Even kids who have used a sippy cup for an extended period of time. All of those things can cause what we call an open bite, meaning your front teeth don’t overlap, and they often have what’s called a large overjet, meaning your front teeth are not overlapping how they should. From the front teeth to the bottom teeth, there’s a very wide gap between them. So that, I know, can cause some speech issues as well because your tongue isn’t really able to be placed where it should be properly on those front teeth, right?
Courtney: Yeah, so our speech sounds are all how we manipulate that airflow, and we manipulate that airflow with our tongue and with our cheeks. And so where we place our tongue, a lot of times, we’re doing it just behind those front teeth or against our front teeth, and so that can – and then there’s more behind the scenes; there’s so many muscles in the tongue, but it can really – there’s different areas that then the air can sneak out, so then you don’t have those quality speech sounds.
Alyssa: So do you teach children to move their tongue differently? What do you do?
Courtney: Well, there’s a kid that I have right now who tends to jut her lower jaw out when she does her SH sound. A lot of kids have trouble moving their jaw separate from their tongue or dissociating all these different parts of the mouth. And so we’re talking centimeters at a time, fine-tuning where that tongue is and where that jaw is. Everybody speaks in their own way and produces their sounds in their own way, but what sounds the most acceptable to those who are listening? So it’s being able to kind of manipulate exactly where that tongue is and all of that.
Katie: And that’s something, too, where if you’re noticing you have patients with having those types of difficulties, definitely touching base with them and asking if they’ve been able to see a dentist or an orthodontist and just kind of gauging if they have any history with that, as well, because that’s something that we wouldn’t want to go missed, either, if that’s something that can help them. We would want to do that, for sure.
Courtney: Exactly. Some kids have the palette expanders and things like that.
Katie: Yeah, even how you were talking about how her lower jaw is moving forward like that. That could be something to do with how her front teeth actually occlude. It could have something to do even with her TMJ or something like that. Even our tonsils, how big our tonsils are, affects our jaw growth, as well. If our tonsils are really large, our jaw growth and the rest of our anatomy finds a way to compensate so they can breathe. So that’s really interesting, as well, and there’s definitely physical signs we look for that can coincide with large tonsils, especially if it’s something that’s kind of gone missed for a longer period of time. A lot of kids who I see for the first time coming in, even that seven to nine range, at that point, you can really see some changes in their jaw development, especially their upper jaw. They’ll develop a really, really high palette because, again, it’s trying to open up their airway so that they can breathe better. A telltale sign, obviously it’s kids with ADHD and all that as well. Any time I hear that in a medical history, I beeline for looking at the tonsils because if kids are not getting the sleep they need, it comes out during the day because when you don’t get enough sleep, you are going to be more hyperactive. That’s how our brains work. So that’s how sometimes it can affect how they act during the day, unfortunately, and oftentimes I do see kids a little bit older and I see that going on, and they have tonsils that are almost touching in the back of their throats, and that’s very abnormal and not healthy for them.
Alyssa: Is that a form of sleep apnea?
Katie: Yeah, absolutely. And sleep apnea is really interesting because there are so many things, so many symptoms. A kid won’t necessarily have all the symptoms; they may only have one, and it could be their body actually compensating as it grows to make sure that it’s avoiding some of those symptoms, as well. So, obviously, a kid who snores a lot; bedwetting is one. Obviously, the hyperactivity during the day or just generally their sleep cycle is off and they’re waking up at night, things like that. Those are all signs that we’re evaluating, and sometimes I’ll still have them see an ENT, even when the tonsils are not so pronounced, but just in case. Every body is so different, and how your body reacts to whatever is going on is going to be totally unique for your body. So less than 30% occlusion of your tonsils is pretty normal, but anything more than that could be causing an issue.
Alyssa: I love that you think about sleep because I’m obsessed with sleep! That’s my jam!
Katie: I love that you are! That’s such a huge thing for us, and going to see a pediatric dentist, we are looking at so many different things because all of that goes into how a child develops. We have so much training on just child development in general, physically and emotionally, and all of that. So we are evaluating all of those things to make sure nothing is going missed because things can, unfortunately. So definitely pediatric dentists have more school that we go through to be able to learn those things, thankfully. Not that general dentists don’t, as well, but you do have to seek out extra training as you graduate, and it just kind of depends on what opportunities you find and learn and all of that, as well. Since I’ve graduated from residency, I’ve had to seek out meeting speech therapists and pathologists to learn more, and obviously training on lip and tongue ties and the procedure to help relieve that for kids. So that’s something that we can work together on, as well, because I can use a laser to actually to a frenectomy, which means we can remove that extra tissue that’s causing the tongue tie, and that can give the child so much more mobility and relief. But even when we do that procedure, kids will still need therapy afterwards. The procedure is part of a spectrum of working together to make sure that child is able to function at their best.
Courtney: I think that for children, especially, their bodies adapt amazingly, and they compensate so well. And so many things can go hidden with a child because their bodies just automatically do these amazing things, and I think I do a very similar thing, where I really look at how are they functioning in their whole world, looking at the whole child. Like with ADHD; you’re saying that this child is really acting out at school, for example. Well, let’s look at these patterns of behavior and sleep or if it always seems to be around writing time that they have a little bit of difficulty with the endurance of those things. It’s really looking at the whole picture and not just honing in on one narrow thing like the teeth or just communication. It’s how everything is interacting together in their world, because gosh, kids adapt amazingly.
Katie: I say this all the time: kids are so resilient! They’re so fascinating, how they can grow and change to make the best of what they are given. And so many situations where I’m always fascinated that they’ve been able to cope for this long in whatever situation it is, and that they’re doing really well, but I know they can do better.
Alyssa: I have a tongue tie question, because in my world as a doula, it often relates to newborns. Do you see a ten-year-old kid – or maybe that’s too old; maybe a five-year-old who still isn’t eating well? Will they still have issues? Can you take care of that?
Katie: I actually had a 13-year-old patient who came to see me because she was having tooth pain, and she needed a deeper filling fixed and all of that. She was a great girl, but just very generally anxious. A typical 13-year-old, but a little further down the spectrum of having a little bit of social anxiety and things like that, as well. And I noticed that she had a really severe tongue tie, and I just asked, since she was having the tooth decay, and a tongue tie can cause or impact the development of tooth decay. So I just asked Mom; I said, “You know, I’m noticing she has a really tight connection between her tongue and the rest of her mouth. Have you guys ever had any issues with eating, speech, anything like that at all?” I’m asking those questions because I don’t want to miss anything as a dentist, as well. I’m not just looking at her tooth. And Mom goes, “Oh, yeah, she used to be in speech therapy for a while. They weren’t really making a lot of progress.”
Alyssa: So the speech therapy wasn’t looking at the tongue tie? Courtney is over here dying!
Katie: So then I’m the crazy lady who comes in for this 13-year-old, and all of a sudden, she has a tongue tie. And then we start talking a little bit more, and even she starts chiming in. She was not saying a word until this moment, and she’s, like, “Yeah, it’s really hard for me to eat.”
Alyssa: Thirteen years!
Katie: And I was, like, oh, my gosh, you poor girl! And I could just see that it was really starting to emotionally affect her. You could tell! They didn’t end up coming back to the office I was at during that time, but they were really relieved when they heard that there could be some other solution, as well. And I talked to her and said that I really wanted her to get another referral for a speech therapist. I wanted her to talk to them about the fact that the pediatric dentist noticed the tongue tie and that we could do a really simple procedure to give her some more mobility with her tongue, but that she would likely need some therapy afterwards, as well. Mom called me back, and she had made an appointment with one of the Spectrum facilities, and then I moved offices, so I’m not sure what happened with it. I’m sure she got the treatment.
Alyssa: So without an actual revision done, you can help – let’s say somebody doesn’t want the frenectomy because it’s too scary or just that, I’m 13 and I don’t want to do it. Can you actually help, or is it limited because there’s only so much you can do?
Courtney: It would be limited because she probably has already figured out her range of motion and probably put it to the max. So at that point structurally, there’s not much manipulation. You know, as speech therapists, we can’t change structure. And so we have to use the structure that we have, and I’m going to trust in all my ability that that girl probably already utilized what she had.
Katie: That’s why sometimes you do need to have that physical change in order to be able to progress in that therapy, and she clearly had not progressed. And I think that’s why they stopped going to therapy, because at that point, what are you supposed to do? So that was just kind of an unfortunate case where something really could have been done way early on because she had clearly been having speech issues. Honestly, at the time, her speech seemed great, and I was much more concerned about the fact that even she said herself that it was hard for her to eat.
Alyssa: Well, I’m thinking about a 13-year-old going to a pizza party, and she’s probably dreading it because it’s really hard to eat and swallow.
Katie: Exactly! Especially at that age, your social life is really dramatically impacted by things like that. That starts, really, as soon as kids start school, but especially when they start noticing differences between each other. That’s huge as a 13-year-old to have gone that long and be struggling. On a more happy note, I’ve had a nine-year-old patient recently, and he had been in speech therapy and wasn’t progressing. I spoke with his speech pathologist, and she said, oh, yeah, just give it a try; do the laser frenectomy. And I did, and he even said, “I felt better talking that same day.”
Courtney: Wow, that’s so great to hear!
Katie: So that was really cool. I was, like, oh, my gosh. That’s so awesome, and Mom was so ecstatic that they could finally progress a little bit more in their treatment. Usually, when we’re doing a laser frenectomy, we remove some of that tissue, and the kids do great, honestly. You’re a little bit sore for a couple of days, but generally, they can still function normally. Sometimes they need a little bit of Ibuprofen or Tylenol for some older kids, but generally, it’s an easy recovery, which is awesome. And every kid is different with their recovery. Some kids, it’s harder; some kids just bounce back the same day. But generally, kids do really, really well.
Alyssa: When they need therapy afterwards, is that something you give?
Courtney: It depends. So speech therapy, we work on that musculature in the mouth, and so if need to work on some range of motion exercises with them, but also with that new freedom that they have with their tongue, suddenly those sounds might be coming out different, and they might not know how to manipulate things right away. So providing a hierarchy and all that and working with them on being able to manipulate the airflow a little differently.
Alyssa: Yeah, that’s a weird thought, too, being a nine-year-old who, you’ve been speaking for eight of these nine years, and suddenly, your tongue moves completely differently, and you’re saying sounds differently. How weird that must sound and feel!
Courtney: Yes!
Katie: Well, it is cool, especially because I’m doing these frenectomies from basically birth until whenever they still need them, but it is really awesome to see when an older kid can actually explain to you how it did affect them in a positive way. So that’s really cool. Obviously for kids who are really, really little, I can still see it in a physical way, how much better they’re doing, whether it’s breastfeeding.
Courtney: I was going to say with newborns and the latching, yeah.
Katie: Even with doing lip tie releases as well, and just how much easier it is for parents to brush at home. So that’s something with occupational therapy, as well. Having oral aversions; if you have a really tight lip tie, then it’s really hard to brush that area because it actually does hurt because your lip is being pulled so tightly against your teeth that it’s really difficult to brush that area. So that’s always something I’m looking for, as well, when I’m in a patient’s mouth moving their soft tissue around. You can tell when a kid is like, oh, that didn’t feel good! And I can see what the tissue is doing inside the mouth to tell, like, yeah, that’s a little too tight right there! I can tell that uncomfortable! So on top of having a parent trying to brush their teeth, obviously for a two-year-old, it’s already still really difficult to brush their teeth sometimes, but having that on top of it – generally, I say you are not hurting your child by brushing their teeth. So if they’re crying, that’s okay, and we give them ways to work through it. But that is something where, yes, that doesn’t feel good, so that’s hard as a parent, as well. But it’s good that we can observe that and give the child some relief and give Mom and Dad a little bit of relief, as well.
Alyssa: Well, I think it’s amazing to have these resources for parents where they know that people like you are working together to where you’re not just looking at a tooth; you’re not just looking at the sounds a kid makes. It’s all connected and they need you both.
Katie: We all need to work together, yeah.
Courtney: Yes, absolutely!
Alyssa: So each of you tell us where our clients can find you and our listeners can find you if they have questions or need a new pediatric dentist or want to have some speech therapy.
Katie: Yeah, we are a new office at East Paris and Burton in the Bankston Center, so we will be open on March 11th, but we’re taking new patients right now. You can email us at smile@pdsofwestmi.com. You can also find us on our website. Otherwise, you can give us a call at 616-608-8898, and we’re happy to help you.
Courtney: And Building Blocks Therapy Services; I’m off of Alpine, right across from the weather ball; that’s a good landmark. You can find me on my website or give me a call at 616-666-6396.
Alyssa: Perfect! Thank you, ladies, for joining us today!
We’ve all heard of a speech therapist but what do they actually do? In this episode, Courtney Joesel of Building Blocks Therapy Services tells us how speech and language services can benefit a child and why, if you notice signs of speech delay, it’s important to have your child seen earlier rather than later. She gives us some things to watch out for as well as some tips to help our children with language development. You can listen to this complete episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hello, welcome to Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa Veneklase, co-owner at Gold Coast. Today, I am super excited to be talking to Courtney Joesel. She is a speech and language pathologist at Building Blocks Therapy Services. Hello!
Courtney: Hello!
Alyssa: So I loved talking to you the other day, and I want to learn more about what you do, but I think a lot of people probably don’t quite understand what a speech and language pathologist is. I’ve heard of a speech therapist. Is that different?
Courtney: We are the same, but as history has progressed, we used to be people who would work on just the sounds, like in the early ‘70s, and it has really progressed to us being communication experts. So that is not just the speech sounds that we hear with the R’s or the S’s. We really address our overall gesture systems; how are we able to communicate our thoughts and ideas, our needs and our wants, and even the social communication, picking up on social cues and understanding all those different nuances and navigating the world around you.
Alyssa: So when you say sounds in the ‘70s, it was literally like somebody who would have a lisp or — and that’s what they would seek out help for and that’s it?
Courtney: Yeah. I mean, there was more to it, but that was kind of the bulk of it, and we’ve really progressed our profession. In the ‘70s, it was kind of like if the kid was missing their two front teeth, we can work on their S’s. So we’ve really been able to hone in on our skills and show where we can really help benefit people in their everyday world.
Alyssa: Do you see children and adults?
Courtney: Speech therapists see children and adults, but I personally focus on pediatrics. I focus on kids from around the twelve-month age all the way up to teens.
Alyssa: So starting at twelve months or around a year?
Courtney: Yeah, and that’s where you start to kind of see some of those disorders or patterns of communication starting to show that they might need a little bit of extra stimulus or some parent coaching on some ways to help.
Alyssa: So up until a year — because a lot of people do the comparisons, right? Like, oh, my four-month-old isn’t doing what my friend’s four-month-old is doing, or my nine-month-old isn’t saying words, but my friend’s nine-month-old is already saying four words. Up until twelve months, then, is there really not a whole lot to worry about?
Courtney: There are definitely some ways to watch and some signs to see how your child is progressing with their communication. Starting at three months, you really start to see huge gains to be made. Every kid, obviously, develops at their own rate, but the earlier that you do notice that there are some significant delays in various aspects, it takes less treatment for that to try to fix itself.
Alyssa: So if a mom or dad at six months thinks they’re noticing major delays, would you see them or just talk to them and say wait until they’re twelve months?
Courtney: I would talk to them and see what they’re noticing. You know, around six months, you should start to be hearing them making different sounds, even taking turns with you with making those sounds. It’s almost like you’re having a conversation with them, but they might just be blowing raspberries. But that is something we’re looking for, and so if the kid isn’t attending to you or responding to certain things, that is an area of concern that we might want to go to the doctor and rule some things out, and we might just want to do an assessment just to see where they’re at to get a baseline and to see how they progress in the next four to six months.
Alyssa: Okay. So what’s significant about the twelve-month mark? What can parents be looking for?
Courtney: So twelve months, around that twelve to eighteen months, you should really see a huge boost in their communication, with their verbalizations or gestures. Children that are using more gestures, we tend to see bigger gains in their communication along with those words. You have to think about, when the child start walking and developing those motor patterns, we typically see their communication developing along that same plane, you know, that same line. So if they’re walking and doing a lot more physical aspects, but you notice that, oh, they’re eighteen months and they don’t have a word, or they’re twelve months and they’re only going ta-ta-ta and not ba-di-da, all that, then that is an area that you might just want to talk to a speech therapist. They’ll know the questions to ask to help you determine, like, hey, this might be something for us to look deeper into.
Alyssa: So the saying “early walker, late talker” really doesn’t mean anything?
Courtney: Well, there are late talkers. Every child has their different sensory systems and how they learn, so some kids learn physically a little bit more and they’re able to navigate their world without using as much communication. So they might be a little late talking, but always kind of look at those, you know, are they a late talker or is there a language delay overall? And you start to see that around — you can really determine that around three years, but those children, if you wait until three years, and it really was a language delay versus just a late talker, then you missed out on a couple years.
Alyssa: So how do you tell the difference? How do you know?
Courtney: So a lot of times, you look at their gestures, how they do communicate with you, the variety of sounds that they’re already using. Are they using more behaviors to get what they want? Just various aspects; we really have to look at the whole child in all these different situations, and a lot of times we can’t tell until three years old, but you don’t want to wait and see for a lot of those kids because then they’ve missed out on two years of specialized treatment.
Alyssa: So a lot of it is you actually assessing and watching this child?
Courtney: Yes.
Alyssa: And you can see visual cues of communication, not just verbal cues?
Courtney: Exactly. You know, the communication system – we think of words and sounds, but there’s so much more to it and how the children pair all those different aspects together and can really help us see how they are able to get their needs and wants met.
Alyssa: What would you tell parents who have a child around the twelve-month mark or older? What do they need to look for? How do they know? Oftentimes, we say, oh, I need to stop this train of thought because I’m just comparing my child to others. But deep down, you might really have this instinct that says, something’s not right here. How do you they know that they need to call you?
Courtney: Well, first, I think moms know best. Moms know their own child, and I do believe a lot of times — not all doctors, but some doctors, do say wait and see; wait and see. Or a parent says, you know, they’re not talking as much as I want, even around that 12-month. And especially if it’s a boy, doctors will say, oh, let’s just wait. Especially if it’s a boy; boys develop a little bit later. But what you really want to look at is, how does that kid communicate? Is it just he’s pretty silent and kind of waits for you to do things and isn’t kind of going out of his comfort zone? We really want to see those kiddos trying to go a little bit out of their comfort zone and trying different sounds. Practicing; you should be hearing a lot of different practicing of them, of adult language. It’s not going to sound like our adult language, but we should be hearing some more jargon. Those are things that you would like to see, even at the twelve or fourteen-month mark. If you’re getting a lot of baby talk and they seem to be trying to say words, that would be an indication of, yeah, let’s give it a couple months.
Alyssa: Because they’re trying and experimenting?
Courtney: They’re trying and they’re experimenting. Now, if you have a kid when you say something like, “More? Do you want more banana?” and they’re just looking at you, around the twelve or fourteen-month mark, you should be getting a little bit more interaction from them.
Alyssa: What about kids who have learned sign language?
Courtney: I love sign language in kids. I think the earlier you can start, the better. I think it really helps them learn language because sign language is a form of communication. That’s gestures. That is communication, so they really start to learn that they can manipulate the world around them by using these gestures versus doing these overt behaviors of screaming and crying, and that they can control their environment. And they go, hey, I get more Cheerios when I do this motion! And then research has shown that kids who typically use sign language, it does support their language development.
Alyssa: That’s one of the biggest pushbacks I get is, oh, I’ve heard that if they use sign language, they talk later. And I haven’t noticed that personally. My daughter learned sign langue. We started a nine months, and at twelve months, it just happened. All of a sudden, she knew all these words, and it was a life-saver.
Courtney: Yeah, the way I try to compare it is, if I were to go to a country where I don’t know the language at all, you get anxiety. You want to be able to tell somebody something! I need to go to the bathroom! And if you can’t communicate that with words, it gets really stressful, and you get tense and anxiety-ridden. So just think about that with a nine or ten-month-old. They have great thoughts and ideas, so they can get frustrated really easily knowing that I really want more of that banana, and she just took it away from me. So if you give them a way to communicate that, and you start pairing it that when they sign more, you say, “Oh, you want more banana!” that really starts stimulating their language.
Alyssa: So is there anything else?
Courtney: Well, just some tips as a child is developing, especially as they get to that twelve-month range, is that you want them to practice what you’re saying. So if you talk in sentences that are about one word longer than what they’re already saying, it gives them more confidence to try to practice what you’re saying. So if they’re starting to say “more,” you can say “more banana.” And then by chance they might say “more banana” next time. So that really helps to show them and give them the scaffolding or the steps to expand their language as they go on.
Alyssa: Keeping it within a realm that’s doable for them, and not saying, “Oh, you want more banana, please?” That’s just way too long.
Courtney: Exactly, and using more statements than questions. Usually, you want to try to stick to a three to one ratio; three statements per one question. That tends to stimulate their language a lot more.
Alyssa: Excellent! Well, if anyone has questions for you or things that they need to talk to you about their child, how do they reach you?
What is birth trauma and do all babies experience it? How can you remedy it? Dr. Annie and Dr. Rachel of Rise Wellness Chiropractic give us several examples of common birth traumas, what they mean, and how chiropractic care can help. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. This is Kristin, and I’m here with my business partner, Alyssa.
Alyssa: Hello!
Kristin: And we have Dr. Annie from Rise Wellness, as well as Dr. Rachel. Today we are talking about birth trauma with babies and how a chiropractor can help them, especially since you have a focus on newborns. So, Annie, tell us some different ways that you can help parents.
Dr. Annie: Sure. Well, first, I want to talk about what birth trauma means. It’s not necessarily that all births are categorized as traumatic births, but let’s say there is a lot of pressure on the mom and the baby while the natural birth process is happening. So even with a natural birth, there can still be some things that show up in little kiddos after. But if there is any sort of birth trauma, if Mom has to get an epidural, that can affect the baby. If there are risks of C-section, stuff like that, any of those red flags that are happening during labor, that can all lead to birth trauma, too.
Dr. Rachel: You’re probably wondering why an epidural would even effect the baby and create more of a birth trauma. What happens is when Mom gets an epidural, you can’t feel from the waist down, so we can’t feel when we’re supposed to push. So what happens is that the baby’s head puts more pressure on the cervix that you can’t feel, and it can cause some birth injury in the cervical spine. Minor, but it can still have effects later on.
Dr. Annie: Yes. And then they’re also more likely to need intervention at birth, too, so whether that’s help pulling the baby out by the head and neck or if that’s use of forceps or vacuum-assisted. And all of those put a lot of pressure on the upper cervical spine of the baby, where the neck is, and your spinal cord goes through that area. So that’s what we find in kiddos, even after a natural birth process, but especially in those instances where there’s been a lot of intervention. We see a lot of upper cervical misalignment that affects the nervous system. And so what we want is to take care of is correcting that misalignment so that they can develop the way that they’re supposed so that their bodies work. A lot of people think of brachial plexus injuries in kids, when the shoulder gets stuck and there’s traction on the brachial plexus, but if there’s enough traction there to injure those nerves in the arm, there’s enough pressure just in a natural birth that can affect the whole nervous system through the neck.
Kristin: We find with breastfeeding there can be some issues with the latch or a baby preferring one side to the other, and that could be, obviously, remedied by chiropractor care. Maybe something happened during birth where they’re just having some issues with their neck and alignment and so on.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, that’s super common. We see that. That’s one of the first signs that there could have been upper cervical misalignment is if a baby prefers one side or one breast when they’re breastfeeding or if they have latching difficulty because that all has to do with how they can turn their head, how the muscles in their face are working, what position their jaw is in. So we see that a lot, and when we do home visits, that’s often for a baby who’s head is turned to one side, and then we can correct that with a simple gentle adjustment, and then it’s amazing. They breastfeed like a champ after that.
Dr. Annie: I would say a big one, too, right now is the torticollis and the flat head. I would say that’s later; you see that later, but it probably started with favoring nursing or with latching difficulty that didn’t get corrected. They’re favoring, so they always want to turn to one side. And then they hyper-develop those muscles on that side, and then just further down the road, it becomes harder and harder to correct.
Dr. Rachel: That’s why we always say it’s good to get your babies checked.
Alyssa: Maybe that’s why I’m so lumpy on this side!
Dr. Rachel: It’s probably your parents’ fault! I blame everything on my parents!
Alyssa: I had no idea!
Dr. Rachel: It all started with the birth!
Kristin: And then, certainly, babies that are colicky or have other issues at birth can be helped by chiropractor care. That’s an easy fix?
Dr. Annie: Yeah. And we’ll say this, just so people don’t think we’re crazy. There was a study done by an MD, Gutman, and he found spinal injury present in 80% of infants examined shortly after birth.
Dr. Rachel: Out of a thousand births.
Dr. Annie: Yeah. Causing interference to neurological and immune function. So like I said, even just the natural birth process. I mean, think about it. If they’re pulling — what is it, 60 to 90 pounds of axial pressure, they say? So even a natural delivery. And just the whole process of babies going through. The uterus contracting; that’s going to cause some sort of distress on that spine.
Dr. Rachel: And we see that. I mean, we see other things, too, in kiddos who ended up C-section. Because they don’t go through the vaginal canal, they don’t get that compression, and so when they’re pulled out of the abdomen, they have a lot of those issues, too, but then their lungs aren’t cleared of fluid and stuff, so then they’re more likely to have allergies and asthma and stuff like that, too, because of those things never getting corrected.
Kristin: So can you explain to our listeners what an adjustment for a newborn is like so they can rest assured that it’s very gentle?
Dr. Rachel: Yes. So the ICPA says you’re going to use the same amount of pressure that you would use to check the ripeness of a tomato. So it is so gentle. If you push your finger on your eyelid, the amount of pressure that you can just feel — that’s how much pressure we’re using to adjust a newborn, especially.
Dr. Annie: We’re using our pinkies. There’s no instrument; there’s no twisting, cracking, popping.
Kristin: And I think that’s what people imagine is the cracking. So it’s not like that? And the fact that you do home visits is amazing, so people can come to your office here in East Town, and for certain cases with newborns, you’ll go to their homes. That’s so wonderful!
Dr. Annie: We do that with most of the moms that we’ve seen throughout their pregnancy. As soon as their baby is born, they call us up and ask us to come over to their house and check the baby, please.
Kristin: And do you also adjust the mom when you do these home visits?
Dr. Rachel: We usually do. I think almost every time. And sometimes Dad, if Dad’s home.
Dr. Annie: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it’s important for the whole family. Birth is stressful! It’s stressful on everybody. It’s stressful on the mom’s spinal mechanics and on her body, but emotionally stressful on both parents, too.
Dr. Rachel: And on your body. We see doulas after the birth!
Kristin: You are so helpful to me after a birth because we have some recovery, as well, especially if it’s a physical birth, or even if it’s not as physical and my client’s sleeping with an epidural and I’m trying to get rest in a waiting room and kind of shoving myself into these strange positions on a chair to sleep. I definitely recover faster and my immune system is much stronger as a result of chiropractic care, so I appreciate you both! Thank you for explaining some of the remedies for different newborn traumas they experience. How can we find you?
Dr. Annie: You can find us on our website. Or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. Both are @risewellnesschiro. It’s probably the best way to find us and get in contact with us.
Kristin: You’re still accepting new patients, correct?
Dr. Annie: Yep!
Kristin: Awesome.
Dr. Annie: Oh, yeah, we’ll take all the babies!
Kristin: Thank you so much for chatting with us, Dr. Annie and Dr. Rachel, and we will see you next time!
Dr. Erica of Root Functional Medicine gives moms some tips about staying healthy through pregnancy and into the postpartum period. We also talk about her upcoming Postpartum Wellness class on March 7. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
This podcast episode is sponsored by LifeFuel, providing healthy meal delivery in West Michigan. We love partnering with LifeFuel!
Alyssa: Hello! Welcome to another episode of Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa Veneklase, co-owner of Gold Coast Doulas, and today I’m talking to Dr. Erica Armstrong of Root Functional Medicine. Hello, Dr. Erica! Welcome.
Dr. Erica: Hello, thank you for having me!
Alyssa: My business partner, Kristin, has been talking to you, but I want to know a little bit about Root Functional Medicine, and then we will talk about an event that we’re going to have together here in our space. So tell me a little bit about what you do.
Dr. Erica: So I am a functional medicine doctor. My background was in family medicine for several years before I went through functional medicine training, and Kelsey, our dietician, and I created a specialty practice in functional medicine, the first of its kind in West Michigan, and we partner up to help patients really get to the root cause of why they’re not feeling well. That’s kind of the basis of functional medicine; we look at people in a holistic sense and try to solve problems at the root, and a lot of the time, we do need to make nutritional changes, and so it just made perfect sense to partner up with a dietician to do that.
Alyssa: So explain to me what a functional medicine doctor does versus a regular medical doctor. How would you, in very simple terms, explain what functional medicine is?
Dr. Erica: Sure, I would say there’s not a simple explanation other than it’s a different model of healthcare entirely. Functional medicine isn’t the symptom, one diagnosis, one treatment, the typical path that gets rushed through. It really is stepping back, looking at the entire picture since birth and even before birth of a patient because they’re not just a snapshot in time. We look at their genetics. We look at their microbiome. We look at their nutrition and lifestyle and really plot everything on something called a functional medicine matrix, and we try to balance the imbalances. And then we look at lab testing that’s simply not available in traditional labs to see how the body is actually functioning, and with that information, we can be much more preventative and not only help people stay away from disease but actually help them feel well.
Alyssa: Yeah, I think of it as — you know how you go to a doctor within one medical system, and then you go to another one, and you’re answering the same questions all the time, but nobody seems to be talking together. And functional medicine is like having all those specialties together talking to one another, so the heart specialist isn’t just looking at your heart. The heart specialist should also be asking about nutrition and diet. You know, it’s not just all these segmented pieces.
Dr. Erica: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. In traditional healthcare, we tend to silo things, but yes, if you have a heart issue, it doesn’t stop there. There are other things that we need to look at, so it’s really putting the big picture together.
Alyssa: So you and Kelsey — she does the dietician part of it? We should have her on sometime, too, because I love talking about diet and sleep since I do sleep consults and food, especially for little ones. Do you see children, as well?
Dr. Erica: We do, yeah. We can see all ages, and I do a lot of nutrition, too. Just in functional medicine training, a vast majority of that is nutrition, but Kelsey does help a lot with specific diets and troubleshooting, and she has a lot of nutrition knowledge that she shares with patients, too.
Alyssa: Let’s talk about this event and tell people what it is that you do to help pregnant women and what they can look forward to if they come to this event.
Dr. Erica: Yeah, so even before pregnancy, really optimizing wellness and things like just trying to make sure they’re eating balanced, healthy meals is important, and then things to look out for in the postpartum period where we’re often sleep deprived and have higher cortisol levels and how to navigate and troubleshoot those areas, how to plan ahead for that.
Alyssa: So this event we’re having is on March 7th from 6:30 to 8:00 PM and it’s going to be here in our office in the Kingsley Building. Seating is limited because our office can only hold so many people. It’s $35.00 per person, and we’re going to create a link and post it on Facebook and put it on our website. Are we calling it How to Set Yourself Up for Success in the Postpartum Period?
Dr. Erica: Yes!
Alyssa: So we’re going to talk about good foods during pregnancy, what to watch out for, sleep deprivation and cortisol, like you just mentioned, tips for dealing with that, and then how to evaluate adrenals and thyroid, which I know is a common question for a lot of women, pregnant or not.
Dr. Erica: Yes, we end up seeing a lot of thyroid disease coming after pregnancy, for a variety of reasons. So how to test for that and assess it from a functional standpoint.
Alyssa: And then we have — and you might need to help me with this; talk about some adaptogens in food? What is that?
Dr. Erica: So adaptogens just means that it helps your body adapt to situations, so certain things like mushrooms or ashwagandha, those are called adaptogens. So if people are having a lot of high cortisol levels, actually eating that food helps because food can talk to your genes and tell your genes to turn on or off and produce more or less cortisol. That’s a very scientific answer, sorry!
Alyssa: No, I get it! And then the last thing I have on here, “some supportive things to do such as basic ideas that can be forgotten during the postpartum period.” What do you mean by that?
Dr. Erica: So even just remembering to continue your prenatal vitamins. Things can get so out of routine with a newborn baby that you forget to do simple things that can help you feel well. We end up seeing a lot of nutritional deficiencies just after giving birth, especially vitamin D. There’s a lot of vitamin D deficiency in general in West Michigan, but if you’re breastfeeding, you’re at more risk for that. And then magnesium deficiency, which many of us are deficient in. So just those two simple vitamins, we can test those levels, and people end up feeling a lot better when we replace those.
Alyssa: So who would you say should come to this event? Women who are pregnant, trying to conceive, postpartum, all of the above?
Dr. Erica: I think all of the above, for sure, because we’re going to talk about a lot of general health tips, as well, as focusing on the postpartum period.
Alyssa: Okay! So again the event is called How to Set Yourself Up for Success in the Postpartum Period, but even if you’re pregnant, I always tell people to plan ahead. So it’s good to learn this stuff so that you’re not in the midst of all this chaos with a newborn at home, and going, oh, shoot. If you know this stuff, you can plan ahead. And again, that’s going to be on March 7th from 6:30 to 8:00 PM, so if you’re interested, you can go to our contact form and let us know you’re interested in the event. I would still like to know a little bit more about your practice. Where are you located?
Dr. Erica: We’re located in downtown Grand Rapids, and we mainly see people in person, but we can also see people virtually throughout the state of Michigan via telemedicine, and some people will drive in for the first visit and then follow up virtually, as well. We have different packages on our website. You can either work with Kelsey in nutrition package or with me in functional medicine or with both of us in what we call the Get to the Root package in where we work together for at least three months and really help get to the root cause of feeling better.
Alyssa: I love that you can do it virtually, especially for postpartum moms!
Dr. Erica: Yes, it makes a lot of sense not to have to lug the baby in!
Alyssa: Yeah, it’s the last thing you want to do! You’re in your yoga pants; you don’t want to have to drive downtown and probably run in to somebody that you know with no makeup on and all that stuff. It’s just a lot easier, especially if you have a newborn and toddlers at home to not have to leave.
Dr. Erica: Yeah, and we can attach all the food plans and wellness plans right to the patient portal.
Alyssa: That’s really convenient! Well, if anyone is interested in getting ahold of you, what’s the easiest way?
Dr. Erica: There’s a contact form right on our website. And we’d be happy to answer your questions. We’re also on Instagram and Facebook as Root Functional Medicine, and we post most of our updates there.
Alyssa: And we’ll share the Facebook event, as well. Again, it’s How to Set Yourself Up for Success in the Postpartum Period and it will be on March 7th from 6:30 to 8:00 PM here at the Gold Coast Doulas office. Well, thank you, Dr. Erica! Thanks for joining us!
Dr. Erica: Thank you!
Alyssa: And tell Kelsey we’ll have her on sometime, too.
Doctor Janna Hibler, ND talks to Alyssa and Kristin about how a naturopathic doctor treats pregnant and postpartum women, body and mind. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes and SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hello, welcome to Ask the Doulas podcast. I am Alyssa Veneklase, co-owner of Gold Coast Doulas, and I am here with Kristin, my business partner today, and Janna Hibler. She’s a naturopathic doctor and clinical nutritionist. Hello, Janna!
Janna: Hi, how’s it going, guys?
Alyssa: So Kristin and I met you at a little gathering of the minds at Grand Rapids Natural Health Recently. We kind of hit it off, and then you and I got coffee, and we hit it off even further. We got to chatting forever, so we were like, let’s just pause this and record our conversation! And today, first, I want to know a little bit more about what you do, but when the two of us were talking, we spoke quite a bit about postpartum depression, and I want to talk about what happens leading up to that, even before you get pregnant, but then during pregnancy, too. What does that look like? What do depression and anxiety look like? How do we nip that in the bud?
Janna: Yeah, definitely! So it’s really important for all of us mamas and future mamas to know that how we are before we get pregnant and give birth is a good indicator of how our health might look like after we give birth. Things you mentioned such as anxiety or depression tend to get more severe after we give birth just because of the extreme stress and sleep deprivation that we are under, having a newborn. I like to emphasize to my patients that this is nothing to feel bad about. It’s just when you don’t sleep, you don’t release the same neurotransmitters and have the same brain chemistry with certain levels of uppers and feel-good hormones. So it’s kind of…
Alyssa: I’m obviously a big proponent of sleep for babies and parents. So what would you tell a parent who says I’m not even pregnant yet; I’m thinking about getting pregnant. How does a person even know if they have depression or anxiety? And what do you do about it? Let’s say that I’m kind of a depressed person or I get anxious about things at work or with my friends or my family. What do you recommend? And then let’s say I came to see you as a naturopathic doctor.
Janna: So again, I like to really emphasize that you are normal and this is a normal part of being a female. If we’re talking evolutionarily speaking, we were made to be out in nature, and so when we’re put in the city, even if we’re out half an hour from Grand Rapids downtown, there’s a lot of lights. There’s a lot of noises. There’s a lot of things going on that cause an overresponse, and that can lead to anxiety and depression. So some symptoms might be feeling nervous in certain situations or some OCD tendencies, or a lower mood display and laughing less or getting less excited about certain things in life. These can be very mild, but if you look at them over the course of the day, if you have a lot of little things, they do add up. So when you walk into a naturopathic doctor’s office, something I really love and take to heart is that we have our medical concentration, but we also have a lot of education with psychology and knowing how the brain works. So I would ask you a bunch of questions; the normal medical questions you get, but in addition, we’re going to ask about your sleep cycles, your exercise, your diet regimen. All these play a part in our mental health, and my end goal is for everybody to feel their best all the time. In order to find out how people are feeling, I like to run a series of either urinary or blood tests. This can give us an indication of brain chemistry, hormone levels, cortisol, in addition to the normal things like checking sugar and red blood cells. I really like to hone in on these specialty tests because by checking our brain chemistry, I can find exactly what neurotransmitters might be high or low, and we can treat appropriately.
Alyssa: So when you talk about neurotransmitters, what does that mean? What are you looking at and what does that mean to you?
Janna: So our neurotransmitters; there’s the common ones we’ve all heard of like dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, epinephrine, even histamine. There is a whole slew of uppers and downers, and basically, we take the brain chemistry analysis tests so we can see if some of them are off. Some people that have allergies have high histamine levels. That’s an upper, so when we have allergies, those people actually tend to have anxiety, as well. And so we can actually nip the anxiety in the bud by treating the allergies and reducing histamine levels. So it’s really a cool science.
Alyssa: And the cortisol and serotonin and melatonin, all those things you can actually check with blood and urine?
Janna: Exactly, yeah.
Kristin: And a lot of women have issues with their thyroid; is that part of the testing, that you can check thyroid levels?
Janna: Absolutely. I like to refer to it as our hormone triangle where we have our thyroid as the king, our sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone, and then we have our cortisol. All three of those categories play a huge role in our hormone development and picture that we have, so we do a lot of intensive testing to find out where those levels are at.
Alyssa: And what would you do if I came in and my cortisol levels were sky-high and you noticed something with my thyroid? What would you tell me to do?
Janna: So depending on your lab results, the thyroid could be treated in two ways. One, sometimes we do give conventional medications, and then another way to treat, depending on your levels, is with herbs. We can give a series of botanical herbs to actually bring your levels back to normal, as well as certain nutrients. There’s a number of co-factors that actually feed our thyroid hormone to turn from its inactive to active form, and without them, we will not function. So that’s things like vitamin D and iron and vitamin C; very common nutrients that we take for granted, but they play a vital role in our thyroid health.
Alyssa: So how long do you test that out before you put them on a drug?
Janna: Typically, I like to give a patient three to six months to see if we can fix it with nutrients and herbs. Again, it comes back to what the patient wants. If a patient wants results this month, then we might take a more aggressive treatment plan. But if they’re willing to do it completely naturally, then three to six months.
Alyssa: So let’s say I get it under control; I’m pregnant, and I still notice now that I still have some anxiety or depression. What do you do during pregnancy?
Janna: I really like to encourage diet and exercise and sleep. Those are our biggest best friends to really help out. Different lifestyle factors can have a huge effect on our mood and behavior. So let’s start with maybe some foods. We could eat a diet rich in dopamine, so we could do things like chocolate. I mean, who doesn’t love chocolate? We all love it, but do we know it’s high in magnesium and it’s high in zinc? Those are vital co-factors to run our brain chemistry. We can also have blueberries or nuts and seeds, which are high in vitamin B6 and 9 and all these B vitamins to help also with our mood. We could do some grass-fed or fermented foods, which help with our gastrointestinal health, which again, I’m sure you guys have all heard of the gut being the second brain. And then sulfur; sulfur-rich foods like onions and garlic that actually help with detox, so if we are having some things get backed up, we can help get them out. So we really try to approach it from a multifactorial view hitting all points. How’s our diet? How’s our exercise? How’s our sleep? How’s our stress? And a lot of what I get into with patients, too, is how is your relationship at home? Do you feel supported? Do you feel loved? Do you feel heard by your partner? By your business partners, your coworkers? These are all part of our needs that play a role in our mental health when we’re pregnant and when we’re not pregnant.
Alyssa: I was going to say those are things that should be carried over throughout, right?
Janna: Yeah, yeah!
Alyssa: Meanwhile, exercising and getting enough sleep.
Janna: Totally, and pregnancy just kind of is that opportunity where we find our weaknesses in our body, and it’s actually a great opportunity to increase our health for the rest of our life and find out things we wouldn’t know about it unless we were pregnant.
Alyssa: Oftentimes, I feel like that is the point in a woman’s brain and body where we finally start to understand and care about what’s happening to our body, and because we’re growing another human, then we’re like, oh, I better start taking care of myself so that I can take care of this baby.
Janna: Yeah, and I think that has a lot to do with what happens after we give birth and why a lot of moms struggle. I mean, I want to say that loud on this podcast right now that mom life is hard. It is a struggle, and I know we all try to put on a face that we’re doing well and everything’s perfect at home, but mom life is hard, and that’s maybe another podcast sometime, but that’s a conversation I’d love to get started because it is hard, and to that extent, why we have a hard time after birth is a lot of the time – and I’m sure you guys see this all the time, being in the house with moms – that the moms forget about themselves. They put all of their energy, all of their love, into their baby, and I was guilty of it, too. I mean, I have a two-year-old, and I definitely did it. I’m still guilty of it some days because we love that human so, so much. But I think it’s really important for our mental health and as mothers to put the energy back into ourselves and remember that we really can’t pour from an empty cup, and we have to be healthy and strong ourselves in order to make strong and healthy babies.
Alyssa: So what do you recommend to a mom who’s suffering from depression? You know, maybe they had a beautiful pregnancy, easy labor and delivery, and then they’re like, oh, my God; this is way harder than I thought, and then sink into a depression that they’ve never experienced before. How do you get them out that?
Janna: And so many moms do! There are so, so many out there that come in, and they’re like, not even my husband knows how sad I am; not even my best friend knows how sad I am, and that’s where I really encourage everyone to just start reaching out. I don’t want you to be ashamed; I don’t want you to feel guilty, because it doesn’t mean you’re a bad mom. You’re an excellent mom because you care so, so much, and asking for that help and taking that first step, making people aware that this is something I do need help with, and receiving that love. From a medical standpoint, too, we’ll go in and I’ll help adjust hormones and your brain chemistry with either herbs or conventional treatments or nutrient levels to help your body, but I think so much of it also comes from a mental and emotional spot of feeling supported and loved by your people around you.
Alyssa: So is naturopathic medicine, in general, more of a functional approach versus the medical approach or kind of a combination?
Janna: Exactly, yeah, and functional medicine is so great. That is the bridge between conventional medicine and natural medicine because we all agree on it, you know. We see a lab level, and it’s important to attend to it when it’s on its lower level. Traditionally-minded thinking, we only would treat something like vitamin D if it was set low because that’s the level that can cause rickets and true mobility issues, but what about everybody that has low-normal, that they’re in that functional, funky range? That’s at a stage that can cause depression, that you can get autoimmune diseases. So as a naturopathic doctor, I really work on treating it then and now so we can prevent getting those diseases because they may not pop up in five or even ten years, but they will happen if they’re not treated.
Kristin: Even in pregnancy, there’s evidence that preeclampsia with the lack of vitamin D, that can be a factor in developing preeclampsia.
Janna: Exactly, and that’s how it can be that simple sometimes where moms come in and, hey, they just want to run a nutrient panel just to find out what are their baseline nutrients, and then that way when breastfeeding comes into play, especially for extended breastfeeding – I’ve been breastfeeding for two and a half years, so that’s something I’ve been keeping a constant eye on, what are my nutrient levels, because we don’t want to cause other problems from just being depleted. So yeah, that’s a great point.
Alyssa: Depleted is a good word to describe mothers postpartum, I think. Most of us at some point just feel depleted, whether it’s mentally, physically, whether it’s just breastfeeding. That alone can make you feel depleted; this baby is literally sucking the life out of me!
Janna: Because you’re giving everything!
Kristin: I tandem nursed, so I really felt depleted when I was nursing two!
Alyssa: It’s like this weird tug of war between “I love doing this” and “I hate doing this so much.” I remember getting so over it when I was done, and then a month later I missed it. I was like, oh, my God; I’m not breastfeeding anymore! But I was so ready to throw those pump accessories in the trash and celebrate, but it’s just a weird…
Janna: It is! And every mom is different, so we like to celebrate moms at each level, whether they want to breastfeed for three months or six months or a year. We all have our breaking point, and we want to prevent us from getting to that point. Mama matters, too!
Kristin: For sure!
Alyssa: Well, thank you so much for joining us, and if people want to find you to come visit you or just ask you questions or follow you on Instagram, where do they find you?
Janna: Absolutely! So I’m currently accepting patients at Grand Rapids Natural Health, and I’m also on social media as holisticmommyandmedoc, and you can reach out there anytime. My name is Janna Hibler on Facebook, and feel free to message me anytime. I like to get to know my mamas. Since I just moved from Vermont, I’m looking to build up my network of mamas because we are a tribe and we all need to stick with each other, so whether it’s personally or professionally, I do want to link up with you!
Laura from Real Food Wellness talks with us today about how she helps women through preconception, pregnancy, and postpartum with healthy living, mind and body. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, and today, we have my business partner Alyssa, and Laura Burkett is joining us from Real Food Wellness. Welcome, Laura!
Laura: Hi!
Kristin: So Laura and I met maybe three years ago at a postpartum women’s class that I took, and you spoke about nutrition and wellness, and my friend Amber Kilpatrick ran the series. We recently reconnected because our offices are in the same space, so it’s good to see you again!
Laura: Yes, it’s great to be here with you!
Kristin: And I’ve been following your blog and website over the years, and your content’s so valuable. So I’d love for you to tell our listeners about the work that you do.
Laura: Sure! I have been in private practice since 2009. My business is called Real Food Wellness. The bulk of my work is with women, and I work, really, in the realm of holistic nutrition and the psychology of eating. So basically, I’ve taken two separate disciplines, nutrition and psychology, and found a way to really bridge them together. It tends to be really good work for women because I’ve noticed that just printing out lists of things you’re supposed to do and not do doesn’t really get us so far. So that’s really the core of my work is one-on-one.
Kristin: It’s amazing! So obviously we work with women as well, so we have some overlap. Today’s episode is focused on getting your body and mind ready for pregnancy, and we have a lot of clients who struggle with fertility or who hire us and then miscarry, unfortunately. Or they may have had an easy time with fertility with baby number one and then struggled the second time. So tell us about some of the work that you do with clients to prepare for a healthy pregnancy.
Laura: Yeah, so I have worked with a handful of women who have come in really wanting to be ahead of the game in terms of how to create an ideal environment or as ideal as they can when they’re trying to conceive. There’s so many variables, but I think just in general for women, how do we create a low-stress state in the female body? Of course, a lot of that has to do with how we’re caring for our bodies, and of course we’re multidimensional beings, but if we’re working from a really practical standpoint, you know, you can think of basic things just for all women: an anti-inflammatory diet, making sure that you’re getting good omega-threes in the diet. If you get really fixated on minerals and nutrients, it can start to be kind of overwhelming, but in general, if you’re eating a wide variety of fruits and vegetables, especially dark leafy greens, plenty of fruit, and good quality protein for those that eat animal protein, you generally are in a good place. So for some women, if that’s a real edge, like if they’re not used to working with their diet, that’s a perfect portal in to just start working with how do I improve it now and get my body in a place where inflammation is down and that sort of thing.
Kristin: So what else goes outside of nutrition? How else can a woman prepare for a healthy pregnancy?
Laura: I mean, if we stay in the same vein as caring for the physical body just for a moment, it’s basic things like exercise, 30 to 60 minutes of moderate exercise, just for health, most days of the week. Anything that she loves to do; you know, they say the best kind of exercise is the kind you’ll actually do. But I also notice outside of that with several of the women that I’ve worked with, part of the reason that they’re coming in is they’re also trying to reconcile what this means in terms of their identity in relationship to their body. In trying to conceive, there are changes with the body and their relationship with eating, so if the relationship with eating feels a little strained or challenged, it’s often a very wise thing in preconception to start working through these things now so that they aren’t thrust into panic or chaos as the body is undergoing a lot of change. So I find that half of the work can be really practical, but then you really can see that half is the heart and soul of the woman who is already deep in the process, even with the idea of conceiving. So it can be really beautiful work, and mothers are living examples to their children, so it’s so important that we learn how to get in a right relationship with eating and with our bodies.
Kristin: So true! I taught a Sacred Pregnancy class for many years, and it’s an eight-week series where women connect with each other. And one of the sessions was focused on body image and nutrition and women were raw and real with each other, and there were so many women that had eating disorders in the past, and it was affecting how they viewed themselves in pregnancy. They wanted to have a healthy pregnancy and were worried about eating the right things but also potentially not gaining too much weight, and there were a lot of underlying issues behind that.
Laura: Yeah, it’s wildly common. It’s good to talk about. It’s good to shed light on, and I’ve found that there’s three different ways you can work with it. One is prior to conception; one of it is, of course, during pregnancy, and then, of course, after you’ve given birth, new stories and new edges arise in that, and it can be difficult when you’re going it alone, but when there’s space to really process, it helps. I’ve talked to a handful of women who have found that it was actually through their pregnancy that they were able to transform much of their relationship with eating because they almost had to be forced, and I’ll say in a really beautiful way, to learn how to — what it means to nourish, like to really, really nourish. So that is such a core theme for any woman at any stage in life, but particularly important for mothers or mothers-to-be. What does it actually mean to really care for myself? And when we ask it in a way that’s really sincere, we do kind of drop back into our center and somewhere in us we actually already know, and we already know the ways that we’re forcing or yanking ourselves through things. So there’s a responsibility in that, and it’s quite lovely, too, if you’re willing, if you’re up for the task. But I love that there’s groups out there and locally that are supporting women. The work that you’re doing; sometimes it’s not easy.
Kristin: Alyssa, any last thoughts?
Alyssa: One thing you said about a woman’s relationship with eating: we didn’t really talk about the postpartum end of it, and I do sleep consultations. And I sometimes see when I ask — because feeding goes hand in hand with sleeping with a baby, so if they’re older and eating solids, sometimes I notice that mom could be giving almost like diet foods to their baby. You know, as an adult, I don’t want to eat too many carbs. Sometimes I feel like you’re looking at the mother’s relationship with eating through how she’s allowing her child to eat, and a 12- or 18-month-old can’t have a no-carb diet. They need carbohydrates for brain development and for proper sleep. So I just wondered about if you had thoughts on that.
Laura: I do! Oh, my gosh; it’s so important. Yes, as a practitioner, even if it’s not explicit, what I’m kind of sniffing out for is where does an intellectual intervention need to come in? Like, what I’m tracking is what does my client believe about eating; what does she believe about weight? What even regulates weight? So is it okay to eat at night? Can I combine proteins and carbs? This is stuff that people are Googling constantly, so that’s why I’ll spend an hour with people is because it’s not as simple, like I said, as printing out a list. We really have to understand the context in which a woman is eating, so it’s such a good point. It’s interesting; I hadn’t even thought about it in that way, but yeah, we certainly can project our eating beliefs onto our children, no doubt. So it’s just wise to keep an ear out for that sort of thing.
Kristin: Yeah, I can definitely see how psychology and nutrition interplay in a lot of this, so it makes complete sense. So tell us about how women can connect with you, work with you, and fill us in a bit for those who have not been on your website and seen your newsletter and blog and so on.
Laura: Yes, so I can be found at my website. You’ll find a blog that I’ve written for several years, so there’s lot of content there. You can reach me there, and then also if you’re just interested in following my work, you can find me on Facebook and also on Instagram, and those would probably be the best places to find me. I post upcoming events and also just information on working one-on-one together.
Kristin: And your office is in East Town in the Kingsley Building. As far as events in the community, do you have anything upcoming or anything in the works?
Laura: Let’s see. I do have a few things coming up. Next week at Refresh Wellness off of Cascade in Grand Rapids, I’m giving a community talk on the psychology of eating and body weight. It will be a one-hour class, so hopefully people that kind of want a doorway in will go to that. And then later in the winter, I will be teaching some Ayurveda workshops, so for those that have an interest in more of those ancient nutrition theories, it’s really a fun, engaging class. So you can also find that information online, too.
Kristin: And they can go to your website for that info, or do they need to go to the studios directly?
Laura: Their best bet is going to social media. I’m a one-woman show, so I do need to update my website, but yes, the information is always up to date on social media.
Kristin: Well, thanks for sharing tips with us today about how to have a healthy preconception stage to ensure a healthy pregnancy! It’s been great chatting with you.
Gentle Sleep Consultant, Alyssa Veneklase, talks about the most common misconceptions around sleep training. If your baby sleeps through the night will your milk supply dry up? Can a baby really self-soothe? Will my baby feel abandoned? You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. This is Kristin, co-owner of Gold Coast Doulas, and I’m here with my business partner Alyssa. And we chatted a while ago about sleep, and we are coming back to some of the top misconceptions related to sleep and training babies, as well as young children.
Alyssa: I get a lot of people asking questions just because there are so many misconceptions about what a sleep trainer does. So I listed a few of the most common, and I figured I’d kind of run through those.
Kristin: Great!
Alyssa: So the first one is that we let babies cry for hours. So everyone has heard of cry-it-out.
Kristin: The dreaded cry-it-out.
Alyssa: And that is not something I do. So I would tell parents that if a sleep consultant is telling you to let your baby cry for hours, please don’t listen to them. I don’t think we should ever let our children cry for hours because it’s not healthy for anybody, and it’s just going to make baby and parents both miserable. But babies do cry; there’s no way to not have a baby cry. Day and night, they’re going to cry. That’s their only form of communication. But not all cries mean distress. They cry when they’re hungry. They cry when they’re tired. They cry when they’re sad, angry, hot, cold, bored. It’s up to the parents to learn to distinguish those cries, and that means paying attention to what’s happening. So, for instance, if there’s a loud noise outside: the phone rings, the dog barks, maybe the sun shines in their eyes through the window, or they yawn and then start crying. If you’re paying attention to what was happening to them around when they started crying, you’ll begin to understand why they’re crying and what that cry means. You can’t assume that all cries mean the same thing, and I run across that with parents. “She cried, so she’s hungry.” Or, “Oh, she cried, so she’s tired.” And that would be like if you stood up and stubbed your toe, and I offered you a sandwich. I’m not listening to what your cry means. I’m not listening to you, and therefore, you can’t trust me, that I’m actually paying attention to what you’re telling me.
I talk about this a lot in my newborn survival class, that we need to listen and pay attention to our children, no matter how young, because when we respond accordingly, we begin to build that trust. So when your child cries and you notice the tired signs, it’s important to react accordingly: put them in their crib. And then depending on the child’s temperament, we soothe them to sleep in a method that makes sense for them. So we don’t do what a friend did for their child; we don’t do what our mom did for us. Each child is different, so that’s my job to figure out when I speak with my clients. And then I also have them fill out a really extensive intake form, so I know their child’s current routine. I figure out the parents’ parenting methods and the temperament of the child, and then depending on what the parents have tried already, I ask about their successes and failures and what their goals are. We come up with a plan that’s specific for them, and then I assure them that nothing ever includes hours of crying. No parent ever asks for that.
But again, depending on the temperament of the child, and sometimes it has to do with how many other kids are in the home, or does Mom have to go back to work in a week? She might want a really fast method, and that might be what I call controlled crying, where we’re going to say, if you’re comfortable with ten minutes at a time, we’re going to let baby cry for ten minutes at a time before we go in and intervene and try to help them soothe. So, again, it’s up to their parenting method and if they’re in a rush or if they have a month to give it.
Kristin: That makes sense.
Alyssa: I’ve also heard that, well, I’m not going to be able to bond with my baby anymore if they can put themselves to sleep. So many parents think that, and I don’t know why they forget that you can bond during the daytime, too, but they’re used to their baby falling asleep in their arms while rocking or breastfeeding, and now they fall asleep on their own. So I tell them to focus on bonding during the day. Especially if the mother is breastfeeding, that’s the ultimate bonding experience, and it still happens several times throughout the day.
Once baby’s on a good nap routine, it actually helps you bond better because when baby’s awake, they’re more alert and happy. Some babies are so exhausted that all they do is cry and fuss, so it’s nearly impossible to bond with a baby like that. That’s when the parents tell me, oh, my baby’s colicky, and oftentimes I can tell just from the intake form alone that they’re not colicky; they’re overly tired. And those babies just cry and cry and cry all day long. So when babies do cry and fuss all the time from overtiredness, cumulatively, this creates a lot more crying than any sleep training does. So this overly-tired baby’s crying all day. A little bit of crying at night for sleep training eliminates it all.
I had a client once that her baby began to sleep in the crib all alone, and then she called me after the fifth or sixth day and was really sad because she missed having her baby in her bed. It’s not my job to tell her she can’t have her baby in bed with her; I’m not going to judge her for feeling sad. Of course, she’s used to having this bonding time with her baby in bed. So I told her that the decision was hers, and she and her husband were now getting a full night’s rest; the daughter was sleeping soundly all night with no tears, but Mom was feeling sad. So I told her, if she wanted her daughter back in bed with her, by all means she can do that. But she right away said, no way. No way; I can’t go back to the old way. She knew she’d be back at square one where she was exhausted and angry, not able to function well at work, and really short with her husband. So I suggested to make the weekends her bedtime snuggle-time in the morning. Who doesn’t love a Saturday or Sunday morning bedtime snuggle? So on days they didn’t have to get up for work or send her to daycare, they brought their daughter into bed with them, and she got to wake up and snuggle under the covers with them for an hour before they get up. She can breastfeed, and it was this good balance where she felt like she could still have the whole weekend to bond with the baby and get a full night’s rest.
Another one is that I’ve heard that, oh, your baby’s going to feel abandoned. I agree; if you’re leaving your baby in a locked room inside a crib for hours with no intervention, they’re going to feel abandoned. It’s a horrible idea and a horrible thought, and again, if anyone’s telling you to do this, please don’t. A good sleep consultant will come up with the plan that’s best for you. So if they have only one solution to the sleep problem that they use with every client over and over, walk away. There is no one right answer, or this would be easy. People wouldn’t need my help; people wouldn’t need to read books. So during my gentle sleep training, parents feel like they’re supported by me, and the baby is gently guided into sleep slowly at the parents’ pace so that nobody feels abandoned. And again, I do have clients who are like, I need to do this now. I have five days until I go back to work; I’m totally fine with some controlled crying. Let’s get this done. And I still think it’s gentle because I want baby to feel connected to parents still, and I don’t want the parents to feel like they’re abandoning their child. So even with a little bit of crying, you can still make it gentle.
For breastfeeding, I hear all the time the concern that my milk supply is going to dry up. And everyone is different. When I have clients fill out my intake form, I find out if there are any breastfeeding issues. Feeding is a huge part of the sleep consults. If baby isn’t gaining, I wouldn’t even suggest sleep training; I would suggest a lactation consultant visit. And there’s no way a baby can sleep longer stretches if their belly isn’t full. It’s just impossible. If there’s low milk supply, we can work with that, but while baby sleeps, mom can get up and pump or she can do a dream feed or both. And if milk supply isn’t an issue, your body’s smart, and most women can go an eight-hour stretch without nursing. But when baby wakes in the morning, they’ll both be very, very ready. So yeah, I ask a lot of questions about feeding, especially if a baby is breastfed, and my number one goal is that they are getting enough calories during the day before we even attempt for longer stretches at night.
Formula-fed babies are a little bit different because I know exactly how much they’re getting. They’re usually gaining a lot, and then if they’re older and eating solids, it still can be an issue. I had one client say, “Oh, he just snacks and snacks and snacks, all day, all day, all day.” And I said, okay, well, what’s he snacking on? Come to find out, it was things like Cheerios and those puffs and just all empty calories. So as soon as we changed it — I said get rid of all this processed food and think about healthy fruits and veggies that are appropriate for his age. Add in some protein. That’s all he needed. He was snacking on bad things all day.
Kristin: Those easy finger foods.
Alyssa: Yeah. And then the last one that I get told a lot is, well, my child is just not a good sleeper. I’ve tried everything, and nothing is going to work. And so many parents say this, or they say, he’s really strong-willed or she’s a fighter, and I don’t doubt that, but all babies want to sleep. They do! They want to sleep. We just have to help them. They don’t know how, and we need to show them and guide them. So as parents, we do the best we can, but unfortunately, it often means we’ve created some really bad habits. It’s really funny because a lot of moms will tell me, “I know I’m not supposed to do this, but this is what I do.” And they’re in survival mode, for the most part. If you’ve gone weeks or months without sleep, you’re literally doing what you need to do to get this baby to sleep right now so that you can get back to sleep quickest. So usually we know that they’re bad habits, but it’s the easiest solution at the moment, so we continue to do it until we just can’t do it any longer, and they’re so exhausted and sleep-deprived they can’t take it anymore.
The best sleep plan is mutually agreeable between parent and child, and if we’re trying to force the child to do something that is against what their internal clock is saying, then yes, they will fight. If we try to get them to nap when they’re not tired, we will think they’re strong-willed. If they wake every day at 4:00 AM just ready to party, we will say that they aren’t good sleepers. And all of these things are just products of poor sleep hygiene, not necessarily a problem with that child. So a lot of the times, it’s a lot of educating on sleep. I give a very extensive plan, and a lot of the plan is just understanding sleep; how it works, and what, based on their baby’s age, developmentally is going on.
Kristin: Sure. What about those parents that say their child doesn’t fall asleep unless they’re driving around the neighborhood in the car?
Alyssa: Again, it’s just a sleep association, and after a certain age, it’s not even a healthy way to sleep. They’re not getting into the deep, restful sleep, and it’s not restorative. It’s like a constant REM sleep where you’re not getting any restorative sleep, and cat-napping is a really bad and a really common habit that little kids and babies get into, but again, they’re not getting restorative sleep. So it’s teaching them about naps and how to allow their baby to soothe themselves to sleep, and it’s figuring out what works because, again, it can’t be the same for every baby. Some babies love to suck, and every baby does because they suck on bottles and boobs and pacifiers, but some really love to suck, and that’s their soothing mechanism. The second they find a hand, sleep is a dream.
Kristin: And they probably did that in the womb, as well.
Alyssa: Yes, many babies do. You’ll see ultrasound pictures with little thumbs in their mouths, yeah. The ones that like to be driven around, they might have an association with swinging or movement. Especially as they begin to roll over and they can go on their sides or tummies, they might even roll themselves to sleep. Some babies do that, and some — this one scares parents, but if they bump their heads against the crib or bang their hand or foot on the crib, but it’s soothing for them.
Kristin: I’ve seen babies do that, yeah.
Alyssa: So it’s letting parents know that they are soothing themselves to sleep. Don’t be alarmed. I mean, if they’re banging their head so hard that they’re getting bruised and stuff, that’s different, but a lot of the times, it’s just kind of a light thump-thump-thump. It’s just understanding and watching; really watching your baby and understanding their cues and what they’re telling you. It’s really important.
Kristin: Fascinating! Thanks for sharing!
Alyssa: Sure! If anyone has any other questions for me and wants to reach out, there is some info our website. We’ve got some other podcasts and blogs about sleep.
Today we talk to Co-Owner of Gold Coast Doulas, Alyssa Veneklase, about sleep consultations. She talks about some common misconceptions and why her consultations are different. She says each sleep plan is unique and based on the individual family’s goals. Who knew you could still breastfeed and co-sleep if you want, all while getting a full night’s rest? You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. This is Kristin, co-owner, and I’m here with my business partner Alyssa to talk about sleep today. We are gaining a lot of interest from clients and the general public about sleep, so if you could start out by letting us know what sleep training is, what it isn’t, and how you’re different from other sleep consultants.
Alyssa: So there’s these misconceptions that we just don’t listen to what the parents need or want, and we just throw babies in a nursery, close the door, and let them cry for hours and say, oh, they’ll fall asleep eventually. And that couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s really like putting together a puzzle. When a client calls me, we have a phone consultation or I meet them in their home and they fill out a really extensive intake form where I ask a ton of questions. I want to know what kind of temperament the child has, whether they’re six weeks old, six months, or 18 months, because the temperament of that child will determine the different methods we try. And then what kind of parenting style; are you a co-sleeper, breastfeeding, formula-fed; is baby in the crib? So it’s like putting together a puzzle; let’s figure out what you’ve tried, what’s working, what’s not working, and honestly, most kids in three to five days figure it out and start sleeping really well.
Kristin: That’s amazing! I wish I would have had you when my kids were little.
Alyssa: And it can be as gentle or as fast-paced as you want.
Kristin: What’s the youngest age that you sleep train? That’s a common question we get, and what is the oldest?
Alyssa: I would say I’ve had clients as small as three weeks, but we don’t sleep train. It’s more about talking about what to look for developmentally in the next few weeks. Probably by six to eight weeks, they’ll start to notice some patterns in sleep. They start producing their own melatonin and all that good stuff, so it’s more about talking about proper sleep hygiene, what the nursery should look like, what the environment should look like around naps and sleep, but then actual sleep training usually starts around 12 to 14 weeks, as long as the baby wasn’t premature and the baby’s gaining weight healthfully.
Kristin: Do you go to the home, or is it a combination of phone and home? How does a client choose what package they want?
Alyssa: One or the other. It could be based on price because for me to go to their home, it’s a little bit more. Some parents want me to come to their space, meet the baby, see the nursery, see if there’s any glaring things that stand out. I might have to go in and say that this room is too light; you need a noise machine; this crib is full of sheets and stuffed animals and blankets and stuff that is not considered safe. Most of the time, it’s a phone consult. That seems to work for most, especially if they’re out of the area.
Kristin: As far as your top tips for potential clients or parents, what are some things you would say? You mentioned darkening a room and so on. What would be your top five things a parent could do?
Alyssa: For basic sleep hygiene, it’s really not until that six- or eight-week mark that they start producing their own melatonin. The production of melatonin only happens in the dark, but you also need that production of serotonin during the day. So it’s this fluctuation of hormones throughout the day, and one needs the other. So they also need sunlight. So I’ve had clients where they just sit in a dark room. They think to get their baby to sleep longer, it just needs to be dark all the time. Well, they’re not allowing their baby the production of serotonin to be active and have this active playtime during the day, so then it’s harder for them to produce the melatonin at night. So creating a sleep environment that’s dark helps. Sound machines: I’ve had a lot of clients use sound machines, but they’re so soft and the baby can barely hear them. It needs to be loud. I tell them think vacuum cleaner. If someone were in here right now with a vacuum cleaner, I would not hear anything going on outside this room. And swaddling; that Moro reflex or the startle reflex that babies have can wake them up several times in the middle of the night, so a safe swaddle, and by that, I mean arms in, really tight around the arms, but really loose around the hips because of hip dysplasia. That’s one thing that with the resurgence of swaddling babies, doctors have noticed that babies can have hip problems if their hips can’t move. So in my newborn class, I demonstrate that; really tight around the arms, but here’s how baby’s legs and hips should still be able to move.
Kristin: What about daytime? Do you have tips for naps and getting better daytime sleep?
Alyssa: Yeah, they go hand in hand, so people will say, oh, the baby sleeps fairly well at night, but is horrible during the day. Well, the night isn’t going to get better until the daytime improves, and a lot of times, it’s just letting them know how long they should wait in between a sleep. So sometimes for little, little babies, they might be trying to keep them up for two hours. A ten-week old baby might not be able to stay awake for more than an hour, so they get overly tired, and then they fight sleep. So letting parents know what a sleep pattern should look like based on their child’s age is sometimes really important.
Kristin: That makes sense, and at Gold Coast, we work with a lot of families with twins and triplets. How do you handle sleep training with multiples?
Alyssa: It’s lovely when they seem to have the same temperament and want to be on the same schedule, and oftentimes I have to remind parents that these are two different humans with different personalities. I’ve done twin consults where we just work with one because the kids’ temperaments are pretty much the same and they’re kind of already on the same schedule, but then some where they’re completely different. When one’s up, the other one is sleeping and vice versa. So then we kind of have to look at them as two separate being with two separate sleep plans.
Kristin: Now, one misconception is that if you’re working with a postpartum doula, Gold Coast or elsewhere, you wouldn’t necessarily need sleep training or a sleep consultation. So tell us why you need both.
Alyssa: Working as a postpartum doula, it’s totally different. I guess it’s different when I’m there because, since I’m also a sleep consultant, there are things I can do, like little tips and tricks I can give Mom and Dad too, but as a postpartum doula, you’re there to ensure the parents get a good night’s rest. So I’m not there to help baby learn to sleep or to self-soothe. The postpartum doula is there to help feed baby, change baby, and ensure that Mom and Dad get rest. Sleep training isn’t usually done overnight. I have an option for a package where I could do that, but usually it’s unnecessary. My plans are so thorough, and they get constant support from me, so by the time nighttime rolls around, they know exactly what they need to do.
Kristin: So you can still have a regular overnight postpartum doula, but just have them or the parents implement your plan you set up for them?
Alyssa: Yeah, I’ve had clients either with a doula or for older children if they have nannies, and I have them either get on the phone call with us, or if they’re not available, they read through the whole plan. And then I’ve even texted back and forth with the nannies, if they’re the one doing the majority of the sleep training during the day to get them on board.
Kristin: So Alyssa, if you are working with a family who tends to breastfeed their baby to doze off, like that’s how they put them to sleep during the day as well as at night, how would you be able to let them still feel connected to the baby in that way and be attachment-focused but still create a stronger routine for the baby or toddler?
Alyssa: So sometimes the feed-to-sleep habit or association doesn’t necessarily cause a problem, but that’s not common. Usually, it becomes an association which includes several wake-ups in the night where the Mom has to get up and feed, so again, it’s just talking to – there’s 20 questions I would have to ask this mom before I could give her a plan, but it’s always about her goal. I always ask: at the end of all this, what’s the end game? What’s your goal for this? And if it’s that she still wants to co-sleep and breastfeed but just can’t wake up six times every night, then I work out a plan specifically for her. If it’s that they’ve been co-sleeping but didn’t mean to and it’s not working out the family and hurting the relationship with the partner, then the end goal is they want baby in their own crib, whether it’s in their room or in their own nursery. That’s a whole different plan.
Kristin: And obviously whether they’re co-sleeping or the baby is in the crib, it’s all about safe sleep and being able to recognize what is safe and what is unsafe.
Alyssa: Yeah, and there are safe ways to co-sleep, and a crib is also very safe, but it can be unsafe if, say, a newborn is put on their tummy or if it’s filled with stuffed animals and blankets. The first thing I do is rip all that stuff out of there.
Kristin: Well, thank you for your time today, and if people are interested in reaching out to you, whether they live in West Michigan or elsewhere, how do they connect with you?
Alyssa: I would say go to our website and just fill out the contact form and let me know you’re interested in sleep. You can always call our phone number, too, at 616-294-0207 or email me at alyssa@goldcoastdoulas.com. I’m always willing to chat. A lot of parents will say, I just don’t think my baby’s ever going to sleep, and after hearing a few details about what their nights and days look like, it’s usually not as bad as they think, and a few easy fixes can get them on track. So even for people who don’t live in the area, a phone consult with email and text support is what I give no matter what.
Will a postpartum doula travel? Yes, at Gold Coast they do! Today we talk to Kelsey Dean, a Certified Birth and Postpartum Doula, about her experience in California and in Michigan traveling with families as a postpartum doula and what that looks like. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hello, welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. Today we’re talking to Kelsey Dean, one of our newest postpartum doulas, and then you’ve also come on as a birth doula as well. Welcome!
Kelsey: Thank you!
Alyssa: I wanted to talk specifically about your postpartum experience. Can you tell us where you came from and the type of experience you’ve had in California and even in the Detroit area, right?
Kelsey: Yes.
Alyssa: And then specifically I want to ask about this traveling aspect of the postpartum doula role.
Kelsey: I started my doula training in 2016 to be a labor doula and postpartum doula. It was just a full-spectrum course, so from there, I had intended to start midwifery school right after, and I thought I really want to get more experience, and so I started picking up postpartum clients because it’s work that’s easy enough to schedule, and it’s also such a rich transition time that it kind of just called to me more. So I began more so nannying for really small children; that was kind of how I got into the doula community and practicing, and then by referral I started to get young families or families that were planning on having children so we could plan a little further in advance. And then I became a full postpartum doula in 2017, so it was about a year transition between doing nanny work and just getting what I could find. In Sonoma County, I served families as a postpartum doula. A lot of overnight shifts were something that were really popular there because sleep is critical. So I moved to Michigan this past summer, in July of 2018, and I got really, really fortunate to link up with Jill Reiter from the After Baby Lady doula services in southeast Michigan, and she was great and connected me with so many families in that area. The experience ranged from single parents to families with really extended family that’s visiting on and off; a lot of range in socioeconomic status, and that’s been really helpful to see, too, to just have that wide range of what can we do; what are your best resources? And now I’m getting a little bit more into the traveling doula idea, and sometimes that’s day work; sometimes it’s overnight. It totally depends on what the family wants, but I’m happy to talk about that more.
Alyssa: Yeah, what does that look like for a family? How far do you travel and how long?
Kelsey: Totally depends on the doula. For me, because I am pretty easily up and mobile, I am willing to go — I can’t think of anywhere I wouldn’t go. I mean, really, if you’re traveling, the idea is that you’re essentially bringing another person with you that you would account for like a family member, so the family that’s hiring is making sure that person has room and board, is able to access everything that they would be accessing like food and tickets and that sort of thing. So in that sense, in some ways, it’s very easy if you’re a single person to just go because you’re just jumping in to the plan that’s already existing. If it’s someplace that’s a little closer by, sometimes – like when I was with a family up in northern Michigan, it was nice that they made accommodations for me, but they already had a home, and so in that case, it’s more a conversation of what does this look like? If I’d had family up there or something, I really wouldn’t have needed that, but if it were, like, we’re going to Mexico and we need a doula, that’s definitely, you know…
Alyssa: You’d have your own room?
Kelsey: Yes.
Alyssa: And in northern Michigan you stayed in a hotel nearby?
Kelsey: I did, yes, and those are usually flexible things, too. Airbnbs are really affordable, and if they have an extra, you just would get one with one extra room in it or something like that. That’s actually worked out for a couple of doulas that I have been in a collective with in the past, that they just did that house share kind of thing, and then in that time off, usually if they’re working overnight shifts or if doulas are working overnight shifts, then it’s easy enough that they wake up and go to bed around 8:00 AM and then the family gets that nice morning time, and then around nap time, the family gets to all go take a nap and the doula comes back in. So it’s a rotating shift kind of thing. It’s like having another family member. I mean, traveling is already kind of a stressful event, and a lot of the things that you would worry about as a new parent when you’re in your home, like, okay, if I need to go see my doctor, where are they; how long is this going to take; or where can I go find this very specific thing that I need for my own health, like elderberry syrup is really popular now because it’s the middle of winter, but things like that: doulas tend to think about those things, and we want to know that before we go somewhere and it’s just one less thing for the parents or the family to think about over and over and over again. So it’s just like having that extra set of hands that you would need anywhere else.
Alyssa: And what if somebody says, oh, wouldn’t it be cheaper to bring a nanny with me? Like, what would be the difference between hiring a nanny and a postpartum doula to come with you?
Kelsey: I like this topic all the time, traveling or not. Nannies are excellent, and they’re meant to be with you for a long period of time and be with you while your child grows, and that’s wonderful, but they’re not necessarily certified in any education or expertise about your baby. So yes, they might come in like another person that feels very warm and loving, and they feel like another family member and this extension that’s really great, but there might be some really serious cues that they would miss about your newborn because they’re not supposed to know. Whether or not they’ve had kids, they might not have had that experience.
Alyssa: And even cues with the mother, right? Like noticing signs and symptoms, like breastfeeding issues or mental health issues that a postpartum doula is trained in.
Kelsey: Yes, absolutely. And nannies, I think, generally — I mean, I’m thinking about childcare, but in general, nannies really aren’t there for a family in the same way that a doula is. A doula is looking at everyone as a spectrum, as a family, whereas a nanny is really there for the childcare.
Alyssa: I think that’s a common question in general. That’s why I like to ask it, so I like that you like to answer it.
Kelsey: I do! And because I totally get it. I’ve had several of my friends tell me about their nanny experiences with, like, twins that are four weeks old and stuff like that, and they just felt super overwhelmed and totally unprepared, and it’s like, well, yeah, you were.
Alyssa: You haven’t been trained!
Kelsey: Yeah, and a lot of times, the stories are from when my friends, being the nannies or babysitters, they were only, like, 16 or 17, totally unprepared for that kind of circumstance.
Alyssa: That’s kind of like a mother’s helper role at that point. You know, it’s not even — I would have a hard time considered a 16-year-old a nanny. It would be more of a babysitter or a mother’s helper.
Kelsey: Right, yes! If you think of it in village terms, a woman that just had a baby — yes, there are those young women that come in to do some cleaning and make sure that you have fresh clothes and you get time to take a bath, but there’s also the matriarch women, like the women that know what’s right and wrong and how this process goes. You need both. I think doulas, as doulas, we try to cover as much of that spectrum as we can by going through some training and education and experience. And yes, it’s great that you also have the opportunity to have a nanny come in and help in that soft way and maybe make meals and things like that, but it’s just not the whole package.
Alyssa: Yeah, I agree. And a doula — we know that we get into this for a temporary amount of time. Like you said, it’s a whole spectrum. We’ll supporting the whole family, and once the parent or parents feel — you can almost sense that confidence in them when you’re like, okay, it’s time for me to go. And they’re like, well, I don’t want you to go! But it’s like, you’re ready. They’re just not ready for you to leave, and sometimes it has to be gradual. Like, okay, we’ll go from three days a week to two to one, and it’s like this gradual process instead of abruptly ending that relationship. But then it’s a great time for a nanny to step in.
Kelsey: It is. I like the concept that doulas are coming in during a transition time, and we try to be these invisible people that just have everything going on, but then the reality is that we’re not invisible, and it’s a subjective experience, and we’re like, oh, now you have to transition out of us too, like double transition time. But that’s such a good time to connect with mommy groups in the area, or like you said, a nanny. We can make those resources and referrals happen, too.
Alyssa: Well, and that’s the other thing too; we’re connected. Doulas are connected in the community, and like you said, we like to know where, if you’re having an issue about this or that — hey, we know who you should talk to; we know who you should go see. Let me have you call so and so. We know how to make those referrals and connections.
Kelsey: Yeah, we really can ease that transition. And just on the note of nannies, sometimes I know we’ve all found people that were unexpected connections. Like you meet someone that’s a nanny that’s a really good fit for you and your family, and that’s great, and maybe you meet — the first interview that you go on with a doula just doesn’t seem like the right fit, but in the same way, you choose a doctor or a chiropractor or someone like that, and if it’s not the right fit, you still wouldn’t go to a doctor and say, well, I didn’t like that doctor, so I’m just going to see an acupuncturist or a chiropractor or a nurse. If you need a doctor, then that’s who you need, and I think with doulas, it’s very much about finding the right fit. This person is going to be in your house, in your vulnerable space. They’re seeing you at a vulnerable time. It’s so important to get the right fit, and the same thing goes for a nanny, but they’re just not necessarily interchangeable. They don’t replace one another.
Alyssa: Yeah, and I think that’s what’s great about having the team we do is because they’re all wonderful, but they all have different personalities. And I agree; I’m a definite type of personality that wouldn’t want certain traits in a postpartum doula that another mother would be like, no, I need those. So I think you’re right, and meet two or three of them if you have to. If you connect with the first one right away, awesome. Which most of them do because all of our doulas are lovely, but yeah, it’s not like a personal stab to the heart or anything if you don’t get hired. Just maybe it’s a personality thing; personalities just don’t fit.
Kelsey: And at Meet the Doula events where there’s a lot of us, we can feel that, too. As a group of doulas, when a family walks in, you can say, oh, that’s totally a doula family for Kristin; she’s got that one for sure. And it doesn’t mean we don’t like them. I can still totally love a family and want the best for them, but just say that I can totally tell that they’re a match for someone else.
Alyssa: I agree. We do that even with a phone conversation. We can tell. Five minutes of talking to a mom on the phone, and I can be like, I know who you need to talk to. Gina, Julie, Kelsey. You can totally get that vibe right away, and usually it’s spot-on.
Kelsey: Oh, yeah. Women’s intuition.
Alyssa: So when you’re traveling with a family, a nanny just has a salary?
Kelsey: Right.
Alyssa: Is that how it works? So everything is the same? But a postpartum doula is an hourly rate, so explain what that looks like for families if they wanted to go on vacation for two weeks and they had a nine-week old baby and wanted to bring a postpartum doula along. What do the hours look like? How do you figure out pay?
Kelsey: It varies per family, again; however, I think the idea that you’re taking someone on vacation so you should be able to get a discounted rate — at first glance, that does make sense. However, when you look at the flip side of that, you’re asking someone to uproot their lives, make sure everything is taken care of on a last-minute basis, and any plans that they may have had in those next two weeks, they have to reschedule. So we are really putting our life on pause for this family, and I think for that reason, there are things that are just assumed that they’re going to be paid for, like the accommodations and the ticket, and no, travel doulas aren’t for everyone because they can be more expensive than a regular postpartum doula. I mean, you’re traveling, so in that sense, it can be — it’s more expensive in general, but usually the rate is about the same. We’re all flexible, and we want to help, so we’re willing to make it work with families. But that being said, it’s usually around the same rate in my experience, and what I’ve heard from other doulas that are also doing this. And as for hourly schedules, we are there.
Alyssa: You can either be there for 10 hours a day or 24, depending on what the family wants, right?
Kelsey: Right, and it’s kind of up to the family and the doula, because just like in any other doula work, if I’m doing an overnight shift here in Grand Rapids, I might be asleep for three of those hours and still being paid to be present in case something were to happen, so that’s something that the doula and the family need to work out. If they want overnight support, is that sleeping overnight support, or would they rather have maybe something until 3:00 AM and then switch so that the doula can get some sleep? There’s always a way to work it, and if cost is a limiting factor, then maybe 24-hour support isn’t the best choice, but there’s just so many different ways to work that, just like natural doula work in any other location. And I think most people usually would prefer to have a 12-hour shift or something like that and then have a little time where it’s just them and just their new family and have that bonding time where there’s not another person kind of butting in and out because after a while we, if you can tell that everything is going really smoothly, it’s like I don’t need to ask you again if you need anything; I can tell you don’t. But if we’re traveling with you, we’re wherever you are. It’s not that we’re out partying in Mexico for three hours and coming back to you. We’re probably just right down the street or at the beach or getting lunch, just in case you call or something like that. So it’s so flexible, and maybe a little bit — I think maybe doulas are a little bit more available in that kind of circumstance. Like, if you wanted more care, we’re already right there.
Alyssa: Right, whereas a nanny service could be a little bit more rigid? Like, you have her from this time to this time, and if you call after that, she’s not going to answer.
Kelsey: Yes. And another thing about those excursions, like going-out-into-the-world excursions kind of things, when I was living in Sonoma, there were families that would want to go wine-tasting or something like that during the day, which is great; live it up. I don’t know if that really counts so much as traveling; it’s more like a day-long event where you just need an extra pair of hands and somebody to juggle all these things.
Alyssa: Well, and wine-tasting, specifically, you want a pair of sober hands, right, to be caring for your baby while you go wine-tasting. That’s probably a really good choice!
Kelsey: And I guess that’s not something that — I don’t know if we would run into that here very often, although the beer thing — like people might go on a beer tour or something like that, but it’s just like, that’s great, get out and do your thing, and a pair of sober hands to make sure there’s a quiet place for napping — and you’d be amazed. Some of those places, if you’re going to on a wine-tasting day or bop around a city, it’s totally beautiful and it’s totally feasible. It’s not this wild, crazy, drunken event. It’s okay to bring your baby with you. It’s just that there need to be safety precautions in place, so another pair of hands, yes, is critical.
Alyssa: Well, and especially let’s say if you have a three-year-old as well. I think that makes it even trickier. You just say, okay, I’m not even going to do these outings anymore. But if you know you have this trusted professional that can come with you, why not? Why not bring the kids along and let them experience this and everyone can enjoy it?
Kelsey: Yes, and just in terms of mental health and overall wellbeing, that kind of feeling when you know you can go out and do something that you really want to do, in 15 hours, you’re going to feel like a better person than when you were stuck at the house, like I can’t leave; I’m stuck here. Just having that mentality switch of having this liberation, this choice to make, that if I want to go do this thing, I can. It’s so relieving. A lot of moms just feel stuck, like I have to take care of my two kids right now, and they’re both driving me crazy at the same time, but I can’t leave.
Alyssa: Right. And obviously, money is a factor for some families, and in that sense, a neighborhood little girl or mother’s helper might be the right fit for them if that’s all that they have the resources for. And then in-home doula support is another level, and then traveling would be another level beyond that.
Kelsey: Yes, traveling is definitely the most fortunate option, but even if — I mean, the great thing about postpartum doulas is that you can have us in your house, and you don’t need to go anywhere. If you want to go take a nap or take a shower, that’s normal. That’s so much a part of our job.
Alyssa: That’s the majority, yeah. I mean, sometimes a client will need to get out, and we tell them, you know what, go run for a coffee and come back in an hour. But that almost gets into that babysitter role, like I’m just going to watch your kids while you leave. I think as a postpartum doula, to be there with the family is critical because you can see them in action; you can help the mother bond with her baby if you see her struggling or help her with breastfeeding support or tell her, you know what, go take a shower or take a nap; I got this. And when she wakes up and you’ve done the dishes, the baby’s napping, and you’re picking up the house, she’s like — you’re an angel! This all happened in two hours? How did you do this? So I think really being there for the family when the family is there is critical, but there are those times of need where you’re like, this mom needs to get out, and whether you go with her or tell her to go alone, I think sometimes that’s just as important.
Kelsey: Absolutely. It is nice to have a whole family perspective, to see everyone together, and I know that’s hard, especially if one parent is working or if it’s a couple and one person is working already by the time they get a postpartum doula in the house. That can be really challenging, but I’ve definitely had families who, even when there’s only one person, you can feel something is just in the air. Like, we’re not talking about the partner that’s not home, and there’s, of course, different ways to handle that. We do hear a fair amount, and there’s that fine line that’s, like, oh, playing around, and maybe that’s how the relationship is with those people, that they’ve always kind of joked with each other like that, but sometimes it’s not. Your hormones are all over the place, and as doulas, we have a limited role in that, I think. As a postpartum doula, there’s definitely been times where I just thought, you know what? This is maybe rooted deeper than the postpartum period, and I know that therapy sounds like a four-letter word for some people, but there’s so many different ways to access really great conflict resolution and therapeutic helpers in the world that can sometimes just be a phone call from home that’s really private. And if that’s something that is very built up already in someone’s mind, maybe we can find the resources. But most of all, I think we’re the eyes in those kinds of circumstances to just be able to sense out just how strong the conflict is, to be able to make a plan of attack. A lot of times, we get to ask the questions that are the uncomfortable questions that the cousin or the aunt or the mother-in-law would notice, but wouldn’t want to say anything because you want to preserve that relationship for a lifetime, and it’s a little more delicate.
Alyssa: Or if they did ask, mom wouldn’t answer honestly or would be offended or would get angry. But coming from her doula who is in her home and she loves and now trusts, it feels like a friend asking, and you’re available to be open and vulnerable with this person. It’s amazing how quickly that bond forms between a doula and a parent. They just become so vulnerable with you, and I think that’s the beauty of the relationship that becomes between these two or three — usually it’s mom, baby, and doula, where they have this relationship, and that’s why it’s so hard to leave because mom has formed this bond. And baby, too, you know? Oftentimes, it’s really hard to leave that baby that you’ve been with. We have birth doulas who have been with a mom throughout pregnancy. They were there for labor and delivery, and then there for months afterwards. So that’s a really strong bond. It’s really har d to sever.
Kelsey: Absolutely it is, especially because you want to see the next step. You know, there’s always that one next thing that’s almost there and you just want to be there for it. Yeah, that is a hard bond to sever. And they don’t have to severed. I mean, we’re always there. We just love. Doulas are such big lovers that it doesn’t have to be this severed bond of never speaking to each other again. We just aren’t going to be in your house four days a week anymore.
Alyssa: Right, and you end up becoming Facebook friends and following photos there. They’ll send random photos via text, so yeah, I think that relationship continues; it’s just a little less frequent. Well, thank you for joining us. If anyone is interested in learning more about Kelsey or hiring her for in-home or traveling doula, she is available, and you can contact us to chat about that.
What sets Gold Coast Doulas apart? Today Dr. Rachel of Rise Wellness asks us why she should refer her clients to us. She already knows she loves us, but why should everyone else? You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, co-owner.
Alyssa: And I’m Alyssa. Today we’re talking to Dr. Rachel again of Rise Wellness Chiro. Hey!
Dr. Rachel: Hey, I’m back.
Alyssa: Tell us a little bit about Rise.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, so I am co-owner of Rise Wellness Chiropractic with Dr. Annie, and we specialize in prenatal chiropractic care and pediatric care. So we see a lot of pregnant women. We are out in the community talking to a lot of pregnant women, teaching some different classes, and whenever we talk to anyone or any patient, we always recommend they have a doula at their birth.
Kristin: Love it!
Dr. Rachel: Yes, so we love you guys, obviously. I used you guys. So I just thought maybe you could tell us more about why we should refer to you.
Kristin: Good question.
Dr. Rachel: Because there’s a lot of doulas out there now. You see it a lot more now, I feel.
Kristin: Yeah, it is becoming more popular than when I became a doula about five years ago, and so we set ourselves up to the highest standards of care at Gold Coast. As many people know, doulas are not regulated. There’s no board certification. So anyone could call themselves a doula, but our doulas are all trained or working towards certification. It takes about two years to get certified for birth or postpartum, and our postpartum doulas are also current with all of the CPR, heart saver, AED certifications. And so in order to work with us, you’re at that higher level.
Dr. Rachel: What classes do the doulas take?
Alyssa:DONA and ProDoula are two of the biggest certifying organizations. Those are what most of our doulas come from. There are a couple others.
Kristin: Yeah, we have some Cappas, and we have doulas in other training programs, so we don’t select certain ones. We do prefer that our doulas have had an in-person versus an online training, and the trainings can vary from two to four days, depending on the certification organization. And then depending, again, on what program they’re going through, oftentimes an OB or a midwife would need to sign off on a certain number of births, as well as nurses in the room and clients. And then there’s hospital research that needs to be done. Books need to be read and essays and exams, and there’s a whole process, and it is different for every organization, but yet pretty similar in the structure.
Alyssa: So a lot of our doulas are certified already, and the ones that are trained and working towards certification have a certain amount of time, and if they don’t fulfill those obligations within that 18- to 24-month period, then when it expires, they have to leave. So we’re really, really adamant about that because if we’re saying that we’re a professional, experienced agency and these are our requirements, we have to stand by that.
Dr. Rachel: So you guys offer a lot of other things besides just having a doula here at Gold Coast?
Alyssa: Yes!
Kristin: Yes!
Dr. Rachel: Which I think is cool, because then you have your doula but then you’re also – then you can refer out to, like, oh, you want placenta encapsulation or help with breastfeeding or all these other classes. So tell me about those.
Kristin: Yeah, and with everything, again, trying to have the highest standards of care, there are a variety of lactation consultants, and our lactation consultants are the highest standard, so IBCLC, and they go through years of training in order to do that. And HypnoBirthing; our childbirth education instructors are certified and maintain those certifications every two years, and our placenta encapsulator has gone through a certification program and is certified and keeps current with bloodborne pathogens and all of the other exams you need.
Dr. Rachel: And weren’t you just telling me the other day that she comes and pick up the placenta?
Kristin: Yes, from the hospital.
Dr. Rachel: Which is nice, because not all of them do, right? Sometimes you have to bring home the placenta?
Alyssa: Sometimes, probably, but all of ours will come pick up at the hospital or home if they’re having a home birth.
Kristin: One of our doulas is a certified placenta encapsulator, and her certification only has her do in-home, so some of our clients like to have that prepared in home and they actually bring the placenta home and then she does all of the encapsulation right there in front of them.
Alyssa: The majority tend to want it picked up at the hospital and brought to the encapsulator’s work space and just dropped back off to them when it’s done. But I think the reason we offer so many things is, you know, you find out you’re pregnant, and where do I go? Who do I ask all these questions to? And to know that you can come to Gold Coast and get evidence-based resources and talk to experienced professionals is invaluable. Our response time is quick; we’ve noticed that if you don’t respond to somebody right away, they just assume that you don’t care or that to be unresponsive just gives a new mom a bad feeling.
Kristin: Yeah, we work seven days a week. We answer the Gold Coast line seven days a week and respond the day of, if not immediately.
Dr. Rachel: How does it work? So they’re, like, hey, they reach out to you, whether email or call, but you have 18 doulas; is that right?
Kristin: Yes.
Dr. Rachel: So how do you get matched with your doula?
Alyssa: Sometimes people ask for somebody specific. “I was on your website, and I really love so-and-so.”
Kristin: Right, or it could be location-based. We have some lakeshore doulas, so we try to pair them with clients who are delivering in the hospital, but are Grand Rapids doulas, of course. We serve a 50-mile radius, so we will travel, and some of our clients – Alyssa can attest to this – will only want a certified doula, so that would limit the pool, or are looking for a lower rate, and we do offer different pricing structures for birth based on where a client is looking for a certified or a pre-certified doula. And so if they are looking for a reduced rate, we would give them our doulas who are experienced, but also working towards their certification.
Alyssa: Right, even if they’re trained and working towards that certification, they could be twelve months in, and they could have had several clients and have done most, if not all, of their coursework. They just have to get all of their clients.
Dr. Rachel: Is there a test at the end or is it just –
Kristin: It’s an exam, yeah.
Alyssa: Yeah, and lots of reading and lots of clients. And for births, they have to be qualifying births. So they could have attended 20 and only 1 qualified because they went too quick or any number of reasons.
Dr. Rachel: What’s a qualified birth?
Kristin: It depends on the organization. Most organizations require three signed-off births. But again, it depends. If you had three Cesareans, only one would count, or if it was a quick birth, it needs to be at least ten hours for some organizations in order to count. And then again, with my first doula certification, Sacred Doula, before I went through the Pro Doula birth certification, I needed to have doctors. So I might have gotten the nurse to sign; I might have gotten my client to sign, but if I couldn’t reach that doctor immediately after the birth to get he or she to sign, then that one didn’t count. A lot of the birth trainings require auditing a full childbirth preparation class, so that could be anywhere from five weeks to twelve weeks, and also sitting in on a breastfeeding class so you understand how to support a breastfeeding mother.
Dr. Rachel: When I took your breastfeeding class, I think someone was sitting in on it.
Kristin: So yeah, there’s a lot of preparation outside of that, and with my first certification, I also needed to take a business class, so I took a social media marketing-focused class as well to build my business.
Alyssa: And one thing we haven’t mentioned is we are fully insured. I know a lot of doulas aren’t, but we as a company are, and we have done background checks for clients or we can do drug screenings. Anything that a client might need us to do, we’re able to do for them.
Kristin: Yes, so we have – obviously in our classroom space and office, we have the full professional liability, but then we have the doula agency covered, and some of our clients have asked us to see our insurance. And then we’ve also, for clients who are concerned about vaccinations, we’ve shown immunization records. If they want doulas to have the flu shot, for example, then we would give them doulas and be able to prove that they have the current flu shot.
Alyssa: And we keep all that information on file, readily accessible, so I know if a client calls and says I want to see someone’s immunizations; I want them to also have a flu shot, and I want to give them a drug test and a background test, I can look at my chart and be like, okay, this person, this person, this person.
Dr. Rachel: That’s really awesome.
Kristin: Yeah, especially for overnight doula support, they want to know that if you’re caring for their child, their baby, when they’re sleeping, that they can trust that individual. So I feel on the postpartum end of things, the background checks, the screenings, are more rigorous than, say, for birth.
Alyssa: Anything else you think that clients have questions on when you say you should hire a doula because you’re pregnant?
Dr. Rachel: No, they probably just ask why. I tell them because you don’t know what you’re doing. You don’t know! I mean, yes, your body can do it naturally, but if you’re not prepared for birth… I tell them to take a birthing class, too. And have a doula there; they know what to do. Like I said, when I sat down with you and Ashley, I was, like, oh, good. You guys got this handled! I’ll just listen to you!
Kristin: Right! We’ve got you covered, and we can also support the partner equally, and you know, regardless of how you’re preparing, whether it’s taking a hospital class or HypnoBirthing or Lamaze or Bradley, then we’re able to support and reaffirm what you learned in class and regardless – again, we pride ourselves on judgment-free support, so birth doulas, postpartum doulas – however you parent, however you choose to birth, it’s cool with us. So if you want to get an epidural the second you walk in the hospital, let me make you comfortable and try to help things progress. If you have a planned Cesarean, then we’ll help you along that way, as well as, obviously, an unmedicated birth experience. Some doulas prefer to only support unmedicated births or only home births, but we will support everyone equally, and we’ve done specific trainings that are beyond the scope of a doula training to make us even more…
Alyssa: More inclusive. You know, we’ve had diversity training, an LGBTQ training. We’re just looking at this community, saying, whoever approaches us and asks for support, how do we best support them?
Kristin: Yes. So we’ve done an empathy training. A lot of our doulas went through the Mothership Certification program, which is a weekend-long training. And also our lactation consultant and infant massage specialists, they both went through the training with me when it was first launched, and so that’s about empathy, working with healthcare professionals, with clients. And so we did that training. We did a disability training to be able to support clients both in birth and postpartum with various disabilities, and that was so helpful and nothing I ever learned at a doula training or a conference. I go to conferences every year and some very specific niches, so we’re able to, again, serve more communities. And one thing that Gold Coast does is that most of us work in the partner model. How did you feel about hiring two doulas versus one doula?
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, it was great. It’s nice to know that you always – well, it’s just nice to have two people to bounce ideas off, or like you said, once you hire your doula, they’re there for the whole pregnancy, so when I would text a question, you both would answer.
Kristin: Right, and we have different backgrounds and experiences. Ashley was your HypnoBirthing instructor, so you had her knowledge as well and my long-time experience, so yeah, that’s a benefit. We only allow the option for certified doulas on our team to serve as a solo doula, and they still have the benefits of the team within Gold Coast if there’s an emergency or if the doula has the flu or if two clients deliver on the same day. They would have a backup within our team, but they prefer to reduce their client load and focus on that individual connection. So for a client who doesn’t necessarily feel comfortable with a team, we give that option, but most doulas in this area work in a solo model with a backup, and you may or may not know who that backup is.
Alyssa: That’s why most tend to like our team approach.
Kristin: And then in the postpartum time, we have some clients who want a lot of hours in a package, and so they may be working with five doulas or they may have one doula. So Alyssa handles a lot of that scheduling.
Alyssa: Yeah, that’s another thing that sets us apart, I think, is when you’re working with just a doula who does postpartum work, she’s limited in how many hours she can do. But we have enough that when we have clients call and say I need somebody day and night for two months straight, we can cover those shifts.
Kristin: It’s nice to cover inclusively with our team and their different skill sets. Some of our doulas are also CLCs, so basic lactation consultants, so if they’re in the home postpartum, they’re able to support with basic breastfeeding needs. If there are specific issues, we can bring our IBCLC there.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, it’s probably just nice to be, even as a doula at Gold Coast, to be able to reach out, like, oh, I have this going on; do you have any advice?
Kristin: Yes, we can bounce situations or an induction question or how do you navigate this or trying to get baby in a better position. So we have the whole team to run things by, and they can always call me if it’s a birth issue and a doula is uncertain how to handle a situation. And then we’re so fortunate in that our infant massage instructor is also a licensed therapist and specializes in postpartum mood disorders and working with women in that time, and so we’re able to use her as a reference and a referral source. She’s helped us process some experiences we’ve had where a doula sometimes needs therapy, needs help dealing with some of the emotions surrounding what we are holding space for.
Alyssa: Yeah, I think our team – we can rely on each other. We have a private Facebook group where we can ask all these questions of each other, support each other, give each other accolades. We have meetings.
Kristin: Yeah, and yearly, I set up a birth doula skill share, so we all spend half of a day together and go through just different comfort measures and things we’ve learned at conferences and other trainings, and just reaffirm each other and, you know, increase our skills. If you don’t practice, then you lose it.
Alyssa: Yeah, we’ve got a large enough team that we can cover everybody.
Kristin: Yeah, we say from the moment a woman conceives through the first year of a child’s life, we’ve got most everything they need, and if we don’t, we have referral partners like you, like if baby’s having trouble latching and they need a chiropractor or they need to go see a pediatric dentist or they need to get some PT done during pregnancy. Could be a variety of things. We know everyone in the area as far as related practitioners to be able to refer them out.
Alyssa: Well, if there’s anybody pregnant listening, why don’t you tell them how to find Rise, and we can tell them how to find Gold Coast.
Dr. Rachel: You can find us at our website. We are in the same building at Gold Coast.
Alyssa: We’re in the Kingsley Building in East Town, so we’re right above the restaurant Terra.
Kristin: And besides our website, we’re also on Instagram and Facebook. You can pretty much find us anywhere online.
Today Alyssa and Kristin talk to Dr. Rachel of Rise Wellness about what she packed in her birth bag. It’s one of the most common questions we are asked by birth clients. Find out what to bring and what you can leave at home! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Kristin: Welcome to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I’m Kristin, co-owner, and we have a special guest with us today.
Alyssa: Dr. Rachel again!
Dr. Rachel: Hi, me again.
Alyssa: Hey, our friend and neighbor from down the hallway.
Dr. Rachel: With Rise Chiropractic.
Alyssa: We wanted to ask you because we get asked by a lot of clients: what do you pack in a birth bag? So we wanted to know what you packed, and maybe you’d have some advice for some parents who are thinking about this; what to pack, what not to pack. Did you pack anything that you wished you wouldn’t have?
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, I feel like I left the hospital with way too much when I left, so I feel I did pack too much, yes.
Kristin: That’s pretty common.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, you read those things online, what to pack, and then I don’t think you need most of it, because the hospital has a lot, honestly.
Alyssa: Like what? Give us some examples.
Dr. Rachel: They have diapers; they have slippers for you; they have mesh underwear; they have the pads. Well, I saw that on one today when I was trying to remember. I was like, you don’t need any of this.
Kristin: The mesh underwear is awesome!
Dr. Rachel: Yes, it is awesome. Take it home with you!
Kristin: The peri bottle…
Dr. Rachel: Yes, the peri bottle. They have everything you need for baby, and it’s just more about comfort.
Kristin: And the biggest thing is for clients who are specific about natural products for themselves and for baby, then that would be something that they would want to pack because the products at most hospitals wouldn’t necessarily be considered natural.
Alyssa: I only remember the butt cream, maybe, that they had.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, I’m trying to think. They had nipple cream.
Kristin: And the shampoo; it used to be Johnson & Johnson.
Alyssa: In the shower, you mean?
Kristin: No, for baby’s bath.
Dr. Rachel: I didn’t bathe my babies there. Was I supposed to? Did I bathe my babies there? I don’t think I did.
Kristin: You don’t need to. I don’t think you did. Just a sponge bath.
Dr. Rachel: Oh, I think the nurses did that. But I was also trying to remember; did they have shampoo and stuff? Because you do shower; you want to shower.
Kristin: Yeah, they have the small bottles for yourself.
Dr. Rachel: I couldn’t remember if I brought my own or not.
Alyssa: I didn’t think I showered in the hospital.
Dr. Rachel: I did. It was difficult. I’m not going to lie.
Alyssa: I think I waited until I got home.
Dr. Rachel: I showered the last day.
Kristin: I showered, but I extended my stay because my daughter was in the NICU, and I remember being in the shower and looking down and being used to my belly and seeing the in-between stage and that was a little dramatic to experience that.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, I looked nine months pregnant. I looked a hundred weeks pregnant before that.
Alyssa: But you were carrying two!
Dr. Rachel: Right! So maybe a nice thing – I was thinking a robe might be nice.
Kristin: Yeah, a robe is really cozy.
Dr. Rachel: I didn’t have one.
Alyssa: Especially if you get cold, if you’re cold all the time.
Kristin: You don’t need it during labor, but in the post-partum time.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, I’m thinking postpartum time, a robe.
Kristin: Or your own PJs.
Dr. Rachel: And I really liked – well, I literally was in the hospital gown the whole time until I left, but the breastfeeding tank tops. That’s a good thing to bring.
Kristin: Or a nursing bra, depending on your size. Some women can’t do tanks.
Dr. Rachel: That’s true. But if you’re going to have people come visit, you might want to get in normal clothes.
Kristin: I didn’t care, apparently!
Dr. Rachel: I brought, which I really liked, was the swaddles for the babies because I think we were there two nights.
Alyssa: Like a sleep sack or your own swaddle blankets?
Dr. Rachel: Well, I brought swaddling, like muslin blankets, but I also brought the ones I had bought with the Velcro, and I liked that instead of just using the hospital blanket that they give you.
Alyssa: Those are kind of small, too.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah. So I did like that I had brought that, and I don’t think that I saw that on any lists. And I actually brought more than just one baby outfit. I didn’t just leave my babies in the same outfit, and they pooped through them, so we went through a couple.
Kristin: They do that! And that meconium is pretty interesting.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, I got induced, so I used it all during that time while I was in the hospital bed. And I highly recommend that to patients when they go. I’m like, if you have that pregnancy pillow, bring it with you. It was the best thing I brought with me.
Kristin: Or just your own pillow from home with your own smell, like your pillowcase. That gives clients some comfort.
Alyssa: Well, and I’m weird about pillows, too. I like my own pillow; I like them a certain way; I need to have two of them.
Dr. Rachel: Did you bring your own pillows?
Alyssa: I didn’t. I didn’t even think about it.
Dr. Rachel: But you wish you would have, didn’t you?
Alyssa: I don’t even remember!
Dr. Rachel: There were no pillows for Adam, so I think he ended up using my pregnancy pillow when he slept on the couch, and I brought a blanket for him. There was really nothing for him. I mean, maybe we could have asked. I don’t know.
Kristin: Snacks; did he bring his own snacks?
Dr. Rachel: Well, I brought snacks for him, yes.
Kristin: Of course you did!
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, lots and lots of snacks. He got a burrito, too, while I got nothing.
Alyssa: That’s the worst part, not being able to eat. Being hangry and being in labor.
Dr. Rachel: Yes. I brought my breastfeeding pillow, also, the breast friend pillow.
Kristin: That’s nice. I like that brand.
Dr. Rachel: That was nice, and then having the lactation consultant there, to have that.
Kristin: Yeah, I highly recommend asking, even if you feel like breastfeeding’s going great, to get that extra support while you’re in the hospital from a lactation consultant is fantastic.
Dr. Rachel: And I had to leave the hospital with no shoes because my feet were so swollen afterwards, so some slippers or something would be nice.
Kristin: Yeah, slippers are great for women who want to walk the halls during labor and get out of their room. Those socks are fine, but I like slippers.
Dr. Rachel: But yeah, slippers or something. Are most women swollen after labor?
Alyssa: I don’t remember mine being swollen.
Dr. Rachel: I think it was just the C-section and all the IV fluids and not being able to leave my hospital bed. Either way, I was very swollen; so bring some slippers, maybe. Maybe I could have left the hospital in shoes, then. Headphones. I did the Hypnobirthing with Ashley, so I listened to that rainbow relaxation a lot.
Alyssa: Oh, and you used headphones so everyone else didn’t have to listen to it.
Kristin: And some people like to use a speaker and have it be out in the open for everyone, but with Hypnobirthing, you can be very internal, so I can see why you’d want to bring headphones and just get in your zone and listen to your affirmations.
Alyssa: So headphones or a speaker, depending on your preference.
Dr. Rachel: Right, or other people just like music, right?
Kristin: Yeah, some people make their own labor soundtrack. I did with my births.
Dr. Rachel: Oh, and a phone charger. Everyone tells you don’t forget that, although I’ll be honest; after babies, I don’t think I even looked at my phone for a very long time.
Kristin: But most people take pictures with their phone, so for some, it’s letting relatives and friends know, but for others, unless they have a birth photographer…
Dr. Rachel: We did have to contact you, so you do need your phone.
Kristin: For sure! Call your doula!
Dr. Rachel: Chapstick. You’re so dry. I think my throat was even so dry I had to have my mom bring cough drops for me. But you know what I wouldn’t bring? My straightener and my curling iron.
Alyssa: That’s a little ambitious!
Dr. Rachel: I don’t know why my friend told me to bring that. That and makeup; that was not needed, unless you want a pretty picture taken.
Kristin: Yeah, some people need to be on Instagram right away and look perfect after.
Alyssa: I think I brought a little bit of makeup, but I had long hair then, so I just pulled it up in a ponytail and maybe put some blush on and called it a day.
Kristin: Yeah, ponytail holders are great. You get hot; all that hair on your neck, and being able to pull your hair up is awesome.
Alyssa: That is one thing when I look back at pictures – I’m on all fours and my husband’s putting wet washcloths on the back of my neck because I was so hot, and to get my hair up on top of my head and get a washcloth on my neck was amazing. Anything else that you brought that you didn’t need?
Dr. Rachel: I don’t think so. I brought a lot of clothes, and I didn’t wear any of them because I was literally in the hospital gown. I mean, you need an outfit to go home in. You’re still going to have a big belly, so bring some sort of pants for that. I think my friend ended up bringing me clothes and I wore those home, which was nice.
Kristin: I wore my own clothes at both of my births. I didn’t wear the gown. I wore a long skirt and my water broke all over it, and then I was nude for the rest of my labor.
Dr. Rachel: Did you wear your gown, Alyssa?
Alyssa: Yeah, they had two on me for a long time, one front, and one back, and I was wandering the halls and sitting on yoga balls, and then once the time came, they whipped the one off. It wasn’t very pretty.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, it is an experience. I think that was it, though. I think I probably brought too many clothes and too many hair products.
Kristin: Yeah, people tend to overpack, but snacks are key. I always say hydration, for clients who like coconut water, that’s excellent with electrolytes. For those who don’t, anything with electrolytes, even Gatorade can be a good option. Or for those who are into labor tea; some women bring it cold to the hospital. I’m a fan of honey sticks; get a little energy going.
Dr. Rachel: Well, they wouldn’t let me have anything!
Kristin: Well, yeah, your situation was unique.
Dr. Rachel: They wouldn’t let me have ice chips! I wish I could have had the snacks I brought. It was good for afterwards. If you end up in a situation where you can’t eat your snacks, you can eat them after.
Alyssa: Actually, I remember that’s one thing I brought you.
Dr. Rachel: You did bring me lots of snacks, yeah.
Alyssa: I remembered that I needed food afterwards and all the snacks!
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, and that was great because then I even had it at home afterwards because then you never eat at a normal time again.
Kristin: Exactly, if you’re breastfeeding, you can never get enough snacks that are in easy reach.
Dr. Rachel: You just live off protein bars and cheese sticks. Well, maybe not. Most babies don’t like dairy.
Kristin: Yeah, some babies have issues with dairy. Well, thanks for the advice. That’s one of the most common questions I get asked, either in consults or in prenatals with clients, is what to pack in the birth bag, what suggestions we have. Obviously, you said you took HypnoBirthing, so for those who are taking HypnoBirthing to bring the manual you get in class. That’s always helpful to be able to refer to that, and sometimes I’ll read scripts to my clients.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, I think I brought those also. I read a lot – people were like, bring a magazine to read. When are you going to read during labor? Who has time for that?
Kristin: Maybe a really long induction where you’re there for three days trying to get ripe and all of that, but otherwise…
Dr. Rachel: But even then, I don’t know. Also, everyone has their phone, so Facebook.
Kristin: Right, social media brings it to a whole different level.
Dr. Rachel: Yeah, but I wouldn’t waste your time with that either.
Kristin: Yeah, and some people, again, make birth playlists and have it all planned out, and with my first, I was induced, so I thought I was going to have more time. It was somewhat quick for an induction, but I made a labor playlist and everything had “breathe” in it. It was themed. And I also had some local artist friends on my playlist, and I did a slideshow of photos from my wedding on my laptop that I had going when I was in the early stages, before things got intense.
Dr. Rachel: Did that help?
Kristin: I liked it. It passed the time. I’m not the type to watch movies, but I’ve had clients watch funny movies on TV to pass the time, and they just crack up. I’ve seen a lot of movies over the years.
Dr. Rachel: Here’s what I would say, also. If you’re close by the hospital, you can send your husband out to go get something you need.
Kristin: Or your doula.
Dr. Rachel: Or have someone bring it to you. So I wouldn’t really stress too much about a pregnancy bag. You can get stuff easy.
Kristin: Or if you have family members lurking in the waiting room, you can send them and give them jobs to do because they love to be helpful and they can go get food or something you’ve forgotten. But not everyone has that luxury of having family or friends nearby.
Dr. Rachel: Right, just if you do.
Alyssa: I’m laughing that you had the time to put together a slideshow. That’s obviously before your first kid, when you have all the time in the world to do these beautiful playlists.
Kristin: But I was on bedrest for three weeks, so I had a lot of time.
Alyssa: Right, well, I think that’s the key point is you had a lot of extra time.
Kristin: And I knew when I was getting induced, so I had time. It was totally different with my second and having a toddler and being pregnant, so I didn’t bring as much.
Alyssa: Anything else we need to know?
Kristin: Yeah, what’s going on at Rise?
Dr. Rachel: Oh, yeah, I was going to tell you that right now at Rise Wellness Chiropractic, we are doing a toy/clothing/supply drive for Degage Ministries, and if you bring in a supply, you can get your exam and consult at no charge, and that goes through December 14th. If you don’t want to be a chiropractic patient, you can still just donate if you’d like to.
Kristin: Yeah, we appreciate all the give-backs that you do in the community, and we love partnering with you on our diaper drives, so thank you for all you do for the community.
Dr. Rachel: Oh, yeah. We love it.
Alyssa: So if somebody has a toy, they can come in and drop it off – toy or clothes?
Dr. Rachel: Yes.
Alyssa: And then if they want to drop a toy and schedule a consult, they should do that online?
Dr. Rachel: They can do that online, yes, at risewellnesschiro.com or they can call the office, 616-258-8480. But online, you can just schedule yourself.
Kristin: And Rise is located in the same building as we are in Eastown, the Kingsley Building. We’re right about Terra Restaurant for those of you who are local.
Alyssa: And you get in through the parking ramp. It’s the hardest thing. You can find the building but you can’t find how to get in our office space on the second floor, so look for the little black awning next to the parking ramp on the corner of Lake and Genesee.
Kristin: Well, thanks for stopping by, Rachel! It’s good to chat.
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Today Ashley Forton, Certified Birth Doula and HypnoBirthing Instructor, talks about why she became a doula and different ways a doula can support a pregnancy. She tells us what a gentle cesarean looks like and why she, as a doula herself, hired a doula for her third child. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
This interview was done while Ashley was still pregnant with her third baby. She has since had her baby and their family is thriving!
Alyssa: Hi, welcome back to Ask the Doulas with Gold Coast Doulas. I am Alyssa, co-owner and postpartum doula at Gold Coast, and we have Ashley as a guest again today.
Ashley: Hi!
Alyssa: She is a birth doula with us, and today we’re going to get to know her a little bit better. I would like to know why you became a doula.
Ashley: So with my first pregnancy, I am the kind of person that I want to know all the things, so I started doing tons and tons of research, and my degree is in health sciences, so I was very curious about the anatomy and physiology and what’s happening to my body, and I had a lot of questions. I started realizing that, hey, doulas are a thing that’s out there, and maybe I’m going to explore that. And there was actually a girl that I worked with in my office who was a doula, and we became friends and she became a great support to me emotionally and informationally, helping me sort through what is and isn’t evidence-based information and being a nonjudgmental sounding board for me. I started realizing how valuable that was. When I hired her, her services to me were just paramount to my experience. I did hire a midwife as well, and I felt so supported by both of them. Any questions I had, any concerns that I had, they were both there to help me through that.
Alyssa: And this was during pregnancy?
Ashley: Yeah, during pregnancy.
Alyssa: A lot of people don’t think about that. You know, you have a birth doulas; they probably think you have that support during birth, but they don’t understand that the sooner you hire a doula, you have a team of experts to support you for those months.
Ashley: Absolutely, and so what was really great is we worked together, so I had access to her all the time, but even her phone is on 24/7, and she was able to answer questions for me. That became really helpful because I had gestational diabetes, which was nothing that was ever on my radar. I wasn’t expecting that, and she was there to emotionally kind of help me navigate those waters because I felt like what I had planned was now coming crashing down. My midwife was able to answer all of my clinical questions and medical questions, but it was also really important to me to have that emotional support. I had that from my very supportive husband and family, but it was also this nonbiased third party that was saying, “You can tell me anything. Just vent it out.” There’s no judgment; there’s no shame, and she was helping me come up with solutions and alternatives to how I was going to emotionally navigate this new path.
Alyssa: And doctors and OBs love this because the doula is now the sounding board for all these questions, and you can certainly say, well, that question is outside my scope; you need to talk to your healthcare provider, but the majority of the questions that most healthcare providers get are probably things that they don’t want to deal with. So the doula takes so much of that time and energy that the doctors – not that they don’t want to the deal with for pregnant women, but they don’t want to answer all these little questions that aren’t medical.
Ashley: And I think a lot of those little questions come from the fear and anxiety. So I’ve had my moments where my anxiety would snowball during this discovery period of gestational diabetes. What does this mean? What’s happening to my body? And I just needed someone to kind of help me and say, it’s okay that you feel this way. But I didn’t necessarily need to have these emotional sessions with my midwife, and it wasn’t something that I needed therapy for, so I didn’t need a trained therapist, but it was really good to say, hey, here’s what’s coming across my mind today. What do you think about this idea? And hey, here, I heard this is something that might be helpful for me. If I end up have a Cesarean, what do you think? And she was able to say, hey, here are some awesome ways to have a gentle Cesarean. Here are some things you might be interested in if you do have a Cesarean.
Alyssa: Can you explain gentle Cesarean?
Ashley: So a lot of different things are coming about in the OB world that are making Cesareans more family-centered, more emotionally aware of the needs of the mother. So things like pass-through drapes, so as soon as the baby is born, that sterile field has a flap that can be opened and Baby can be placed directly on the mom’s chest, whereas before they may have taken Baby, swaddled Baby, and put her on a warmer. So simple things like that or even see-through drapes, if a family is comfortable with that, being able to see their baby emerge. That’s really cool, if that’s something that they want. We also talked about talking to our provider about having music playing in the room, being my choice of music, and what the different options were to make it feel more comfortable and something to look forward to as opposed to just an operation that I was terrified of.
Alyssa: They’re going to cut me open, take my baby, and who knows when I will get to touch and see my baby.
Ashley: Exactly. There was a lot of unknown. When I found out I had gestational diabetes, my brain immediately went to, I’m going to be put under, and it’s going to be this Cesarean that I wasn’t planning on. My gestational diabetes was pretty mild, and I was able to control it almost completely with diet. I did not need insulin or anything like that, and everybody’s body is different, so not everybody is able to do that, but I worked really hard on what I was eating and what I was doing to keep things on the path that I was hoping to go down, and a lot of that was with nutritional guidance. I saw a dietician and saw an OB in addition to my midwife, and so I had a full team of medical providers, as well as my doula, that were all there in my corner rooting for me, regardless of how it turned out. They were all like, “We’re here for you, no matter how this goes.” And that was just incredible. I walked away from my birth – I ended up having a vaginal birth and didn’t need the Cesarean, but I walked away from that feeling like I was in charge throughout the whole process. My doula really helped me to find my voice and speak for myself and ask the questions that I needed to ask my provider, and that was really powerful for me. I felt like when my baby was born, I felt like I could conquer the world. I felt like Warrior Woman! And it wasn’t because I had a vaginal birth; it was because I felt like I was in charge of every single step along the way, even when my body said, “Ha, ha, you thought this was going to go differently.” I still was in charge, and I still had a whole team of people in my corner, which was really, really helpful. I love my family and my friends dearly, and they’re all very well-meaning, but everybody has opinions and everybody wants to tell you what they would do. But they aren’t me, and so a lot of times it was just kind of listening and smiling and nodding and then thinking, “We’re not doing that.”
Alyssa: Right, and it’s really what that doula is; it’s the expert, third-party, judgment-free, tell me anything; let’s figure out what you want. And so because of the support you received with your babies, something just clicked and you said hey, what if I did this?
Ashley: Yeah, so pregnant with my son, my second child, I hired the same doula and had another amazing experience and also felt very in charge. I had similar curve balls thrown at me, but again, felt very in charge, and I started thinking, you know, I have heard so many horror stories and from friends and family who have so many regrets about their birth or they don’t understand why things happened at their birth, and I started thinking, I would love to change that. I would love for these women to look back on their birth and go, I felt awesome! This is amazing! Regardless of how they got there. So I started thinking, how could I use my degree in health sciences, my passion for anatomy and physiology, and I was like, you know what, that knowledge ties in perfectly to pregnancy and birth. There’s a whole lot happening in your anatomy and physiology, and it just still fascinates me to this day. And so after my son was born, I met with Kristin, one of the co-owners of Gold Coast Doulas, and I said, “What do I need to do? Where do I need to go? I want to be a doula.” And I got into a training, and it hit me like a ton of bricks, sitting in that training: this is what I need to be doing. This is exactly what I want to be doing! And I had completely shed that mentality that I used to have, the idea that there’s only one way that’s best for everyone. Naively, in my first pregnancy, that’s what I thought: if this is what’s best for me, it’s best for you too! And I became very passionate about supporting women and helping them to find their voice and feel like they’re in charge so that they don’t look back and have regrets. Even when curve balls come, you have the power to make a decision based on your instincts, knowing the benefits and risks, and you get to make a choice. And that’s really powerful. That’s really amazing, and so I love hearing women, even when they had something in their mind planned, this is how I want it to go, and it doesn’t go that way, and they look at me at the postpartum visit and they say, I loved my birth. I was in charge. I have no regrets. That’s amazing because that’s going to go with them the rest of their life.
Alyssa: Yes! Because I, as a postpartum doula, see the negative side effects of that when they get home and they’ve had this traumatic birth story. Maybe they didn’t use a birth doula. You know, things don’t always go as planned, and it’s kind of a hard lesson to learn. I joke in one of my newborn class that this is the beginning. In your life, nothing is going to go as planned from here on out. Once you have a kid, your schedule is no longer yours. Everything’s just going to be in disarray. Eventually, it does get better, but it’s just the beginning of letting go of control, and you really have to. You have control over bits and pieces, but the big picture is completely out of your control, and you just have to be okay with that.
Ashley: And it really is about learning to have control of the moments where you can. So when you’re presented with a choice, that’s when you get to take control and say, “This is what I think is best for us.” Sure, there are times where you don’t have a choice; it’s an emergency, and your body and your baby made the choice for you. This is what needs to happen. And that happens. That absolutely happens. But you’re right; it’s letting go of having that rigid plan set in your mind that this is how it’s going to go and it’s going to be great, because you set yourself up for emotional letdown when you only are counting on this one possibility. But when you open up your mind to, “This is what I’d prefer have happen, and this is what my dream is; but you know what? If we get thrown a curve ball, we’ll take it. One step at a time, we will cross that bridge when we come to it.” And those goes for birth and pregnancy and postpartum. You really just have to be flexible, and that can be a hard pill to swallow. It was for me. I like to have a plan, and I like things to according to plan.
Alyssa: I’m the exact same way!
Ashley: My husband laughs because now I’m a little bit of a different person than I was before I had kids. I’m much more able to say, okay, that didn’t happen, so now we’ve got a new plan.
Alyssa: You learn to go with the flow. It makes your days much more tolerable and you stay a little happier!
Ashley: Absolutely, yeah. And knowing that you may not be able to have control over the exact circumstances, but you do have control over how you react to them. So trying, even though it’s so much easier said than done, but trying to find a positive; thing to find a benefit to that, and going, “You know what? Maybe this is why this happened.” Everything’s 20/20 in hindsight, but in the moment, that’s hard, and if you’ve got a good support system, it doesn’t have be a birth doula. It can be a supportive partner, a provider that you love; it can be family that you love, as long as somebody’s there to say, I get it. This didn’t go according to plan, but we’re going to get through this, and it’s okay to feel whatever you’re feeling, but having that support system, I think, is extremely important because parenting is unpredictable. Birth is unpredictable. Stuff happens that we don’t think is going to happen, and having a support system is extremely important to make it through that and come out on the other side going, yeah, that was rough, but we did it. We did it, and we’re stronger now.
Alyssa: That’s amazing. If I was going to have another baby, I’d hire you for sure! But we’re done.
Ashley: And I think it is worth noting, I am pregnant with my third, and I did hire a doula. I am a doula. It’s my third baby, and I still hired a doula because birth is unpredictable. I don’t know what’s going to happen this time around. Every baby is different; every pregnancy is different. My life is different now than it was the first time around, and having that constant support is extremely important to me, and it also helps my husband, I think, feel a little better knowing that he’s not the only one that I’m relying on for support.
Alyssa: Right. He can only do so much.
Ashley: Absolutely. And he knows me better than anybody else does, but he also knows his own limitations, and he knows that maybe a doula has a little bit more knowledge about the birth process than he does. And when I’m in labor, I’m not necessarily going to be in doula-mode to doula myself!
Alyssa: And you shouldn’t be expected to!
Ashley: Right, but I want to be able to look to somebody else to go, all right. Help me out here. Instead of trying to put all that pressure on myself, too.
Alyssa: That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing! If you have questions or comments or anything you’d like to hear Ashley talk about at another time, email us at info@goldcoastdoulas.com. Remember, these moments are golden!
Ever wondered about all those meal delivery services? Are they worth the money? Will they save you time and money? Today we talk to Carrie, a client who uses a local meal delivery service, and Genevieve, the owner of Life Fuel. You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hello, welcome to Ask the Doulas. I’m Alyssa, and I am going to be talking with a couple lovely ladies today, Carrie and Genevieve. Hello, ladies.
Carrie: Hello!
Genevieve: Hello!
Alyssa: Carrie was on before because she is a client of ours who used us for birth and postpartum services, and then Genevieve is the owner of Life Fuel, who we’ve also had on before because we partner with you and your delicious, healthy meals. So it just so happened that you and I were talking about another podcast, and you said, “I think one of my clients happens to be one of your clients,” so it just works perfectly to have Carrie here. So I wanted to talk about, as a new mom, how has a meal delivery service helped you?
Carrie: Oh, it makes life a lot easier, and I used Life Fuel before I got pregnant, so I was familiar with their meals. But when you’re a new parent, you don’t have much time for cooking. I love to cook, but right now, it’s just my husband and myself and our daughter, but it’s really hard cooking for two adults. So that’s kind of why I initially started using Life Fuel because I would waste so much food just cooking for two people, plus all the time shopping and coming up with meals. And I’m a really bad freezer, where if I put something in the freezer, I know I’m going to forget it, and my husband doesn’t like freezer meals. Having Life Fuel, I could just pull it out, and if my husband would text me at 5:30 to ask what’s the dinner plan, I can be like, oh, we have this and this! Let me look!
Alyssa: It’s like a menu. I have my own menu in my refrigerator.
Carrie: And he’s like, oh, it all sounds good! I’m like, okay, well, I’m going to go with what I feel like having tonight. But it just made life so much easier. Then, after having our daughter, you really don’t have much time, and you’re sleep-deprived. If you don’t have time to cook, it kind of takes the joy out of cooking, and it’s more of just a chore. And I never want cooking to be a chore. I’ve used one other program in the Grand Rapids area, and what I like about Genevieve’s is that she all the nutritional information on there, so I know how healthy it is or how healthy it isn’t. Usually, they’re very healthy. Sometimes I want something that’s not so healthy; that’s when I order pizza or I make a grilled cheese sandwich or something like that. But also, it’s a complete meal. You’re not having just the entrée portion and then you have to figure out the sides. You’re getting a full meal there, and sometimes the portion sizes are — I probably shouldn’t tell you this, but they’re big, so a lot of times, Mark and I can split the portions, and then we have lunch for the next day. But really, it was the — you tend to think, oh, my gosh, I can’t afford meal delivery, but no, that was the biggest reason why I chose Life Fuel too was because it was saving me money. I was wasting less, and it was a value.
Alyssa: That’s exactly how I felt, too. I looked at these and went, okay, for me to make a meal like this, I’m going to spend so much, because we have a family of three as well. I’m wasting so much food just to buy all this extra stuff that I only need for two, so then I’m going to have to make this meal, like, three times to use all the stuff I bought, and we don’t want to eat it three times in a week. And cooking just became a chore for me, like you. I used to love it, but I don’t have time and I dread it now. So coming home and just saying, these are my choices. Like, today for lunch before I came here, I was like, what do I have? Oh, beef Asian lettuce wraps? Done! That’s my lunch, and it’s delicious.
Carrie: I think we’re going to have that for dinner tonight!
Alyssa: And some of them are — depending on the meals, some of them have been big enough that my husband and I can split them. Awesome! Or I’ll eat half for lunch and then half for lunch the next day. Some of them, I can totally gobble it all up in one meal.
Genevieve: Actually, our nutritionist David, who’s been on your podcast before, has two young sons, so a lot of times they’ll be getting home kind of late, and he’ll just split a meal for his two sons and just say, “That’s your meal.” It’s not technically a kid food, but a lot of it, his kids will eat, and it makes it super easy so they’re not starving while you’re trying to prepare something. It can be used a lot of different ways.
Alyssa: Yeah, it would be perfect for two kids, and I think the difference, too, like you said, between this meal delivery service and another, is that I don’t have time to prep it. Some of them, you just get ingredients and you have to cook it yourself. I don’t have time. This is already done. I just have to heat it up. Sometimes, I don’t even heat it up. Today with the lettuce wraps, I put the cold beef in the cold lettuce and dumped the sauce on, and it was delicious. I didn’t even have to heat it.
Carrie: I’ve never tried some of the bigger companies like Blue Apron, but one thing I like is that I can email Genevieve, and you respond so quickly. So if there are any questions, you get it figured out really quick, and I don’t think you would get that with some of the bigger companies.
Genevieve: Yeah, and that’s part of the reason. We want to stay local to West Michigan. A lot of people have asked us why we don’t ship through the mail, and that’s just not the vision for our company. We want to know our customers and know their preferences and be able to adjust based on what people are asking for, and I think staying here and just staying local will really help us do that.
Carrie: I think in my Notes section for you, I have that my husband hates eggplant.
Genevieve: Yes, you do!
Carrie: But I always order ala carte because I like looking at the different meals.
Genevieve: Yeah, because you’ve gotten the eggplant lasagna a couple of times, I think.
Carrie: Yeah, and I think it’s maybe vegan eggplant lasagna, and Mark was like, this is the most disgusting thing ever!
Genevieve: I had a feeling that meal was just for you!
Carrie: Yep!
Alyssa: There have definitely been a couple my husband says no thanks to, and I’m all about it.
Genevieve: I think the word “vegan” in general kind of scares males. Like, you’ve had vegetables before, right?
Alyssa: There’s just not a big slab of meat in it, so they don’t want it, right? And I love that you have gluten-free and vegan and paleo options, because I can just look at that right away, like the pancakes that just came, and I know right away that we can have just by looking at the ingredients.
Genevieve: And Carrie, I love what you said about less waste because I think that’s something people don’t think about when they’re doing their own meal prep or meal planning. You end up going to the grocery store, and maybe you’re spending a little bit less than what you would spend on our meals, but are you utilizing all those ingredients? Are they making complete meals for you? Or are you ending up with a lot of leftover things that you don’t know what to do with?
Alyssa: I think I would be spending more at the store.
Carrie: I would be spending more, yeah.
Genevieve: Well, you’re also being exposed to maybe a lot of things that you shouldn’t be buying when you’re at the grocery store.
Alyssa: But then the fact that, like you said, it’s complete. You have the fiber; you have the protein; you have the vegetables. You have everything in there! I literally don’t have time, if I’m making a meal myself, and I thaw some meat and then I’m like, oh, shoot, I also need to think about all the things I need with this meat. I just don’t have the time and energy. So it’s just done for me, and it tastes good and I don’t have to think about it. Genevieve, where can we find you?
Genevieve: You can find us at our website and sign up for meals there.
Alyssa: And I know I’ve asked you before, but why are you called Life Fuel by Vault?
Genevieve: We are a sister company of Vault Catering, which is also here in town.
Alyssa: Gotcha. And then we have coupons for new subscribers, too, right?
Genevieve: Yes! I can just give the promo code right now!
Alyssa: Sure! Tell us the code!
Genevieve: You can get 20% off your first order by using the promo code FUEL20.
Alyssa: Perfect! And you don’t have to have a subscription, right? You can go on and buy one meal on one day, or buy ten meals at once?
Genevieve: Yeah, and our menu changes frequently, so a lot of people like to go on and peruse the different menu items and figure out what they’re going to want to eat that meat, so that’s totally an option.
Alyssa: I need to get better at that. I haven’t looked at the menus as much.
Genevieve: Yeah, it’s a little bit more challenging when you’re a subscription customer because you have to reference back the menu for the week, but it’s totally possible to log in there and switch out the meals, and you can also pause a week, too, if you’re going to be out of town or something.
Alyssa: Which I’ve done, and that’s great. Anything else you want to say about the meal plans?
Carrie: Well, just for your customers, what’s your radius that you ship to?
Genevieve: We go all the way to Muskegon, so we do the Lakeshore, Grand Haven. We do Kent County, Ottawa County, and Muskegon County right now.
Alyssa: And you deliver on Tuesday and Wednesdays now?
One of our clients describes her pregnancy, labor, and delivery and how having birth and postpartum doula support saved her sanity. You can listen to this complete podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hello! Welcome to another episode of Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa, and I’m super excited to be talking to one of our clients, Carrie, today. I feel like I known you. We’ve been emailing back and forth forever, and I finally get to see you and hug you today.
Carrie: I know, it’s nice to meet you!
Alyssa: Welcome! So you have used a few of our services, and I kind of want to hear your story from start to finish with as much or as little as you want to tell us. So you find out you’re pregnant, and then what?
Carrie: Well, and just a quick background about me, too: I was a late bloomer. I got married at 38, and Mark and I talked about having kids, but it wasn’t a priority. We loved to travel, and I was focused on my career; he was focused on his career. If it happened, great; if not, we were okay with that. And a couple years later, I was almost 40 and it happened.
Alyssa: So you weren’t necessarily planning it, but not preventing it, either?
Carrie: No, exactly, but we kind of figured with my age, I was a higher risk, and I kind of figured it just wasn’t going to happen for us. But then it did, and now, of course, we can’t imagine our life without our daughter in it, now that she’s actually here. But at the time, you know, we had other priorities. So now we’re pregnant. We’re like, oh, my gosh, what the hell do we do? We had all these array of emotions come over us, like our life is going to change forever. And we bought all the books that we were supposed to buy, and we started reading. And that’s where I came across the term doula. I had never heard of a doula before. So I do what anybody does nowadays, and I go to Google. I’m, like, what is this doula that they keep talking about?
Alyssa: Do we have any in Grand Rapids?!
Carrie: I know, it’s kind of a small town, but there were actually a couple companies that led me to you guys, and Gold Coast had rave reviews I started reading. Mark and I don’t have much support. Our parents are older, as we’re older, and our siblings live far away, so we didn’t have many friends or family that could or would want to be there to support us through this process. That’s what led us to make the decision, and we kind of did it late in the game, too. I forget how many weeks along I was, but I was due in early August, and I think we reached out to Gold Coast right around early July, so very late in the process.
Alyssa: You make me want to look it up right now and see, but yeah, I think you were 35 weeks or so; pretty far along.
Carrie: Yeah, it was kind of late. So apparently, I didn’t read these books soon enough, but it was the best decision I made, especially with just not having that support from family. The doulas were amazing. They didn’t judge, and they gave their honest opinions on their experiences and what they saw, but they weren’t biased. So at that early stage in the pregnancy, we were able to build that relationship, and we had made the decision to do the birth doula and postpartum doula. I love Mark, but he’s not female and he’s not given birth. He said, “I think I could handle this all by myself,” and I’m like, no. No, he couldn’t have. So I was really glad we went through the birth with the birth doula and the postpartum doula. Before the labor portion, we had a text chain going on, so I was able to text Julie and Tricia and just ask any question. It could be as dumb as it sounded or just very simple questions.
Alyssa: First-time moms have a ton of questions, and you can’t call your OB five times a day.
Carrie: Right, so I was able to text them, and they got right back to me. But that just started the relationship-building, and I think that was the biggest thing, just having a relationship, because they’re embarking on this incredible journey of yours, and it’s a very private journey, but we’re asking them to join us. And that initial correspondence between them just helped build that bridge of feeling secure with the person that you’re with. Then to jump forward to the labor portion — you have to be open, you know? You have the doula there, and she’s just helping you as much as she can, but she also offered the privacy that we wanted, too. We had to make some decisions, and Tricia was our birth doula, and she gave us the privacy that we needed to make those difficult decisions, if we were going to have a C-section or are going to continue to try to do it naturally. But she was there when we needed her, too, so it was such a good experience. If I were to do it again — and I think we might be one and done — but I can’t imagine not having a doula with us for that part of it.
Alyssa: What was Mark’s experience, since he was thinking, going into it, “I can do this; I got you, honey. You only need me.” After actually experiencing this and having a doula, what does he think?
Carrie: He sat on the couch, so…
Alyssa: Watching the game on his phone.
Carrie: Yeah, he was watching the game. Both games! But no, he did great. He supported me how he could, but he realized that he couldn’t support me the way that a doula could, and there’s just certain things that Tricia knew, like different things to try that might help the process, that Mark wouldn’t have had a clue. And it’s nothing against a male, but they can’t carry a baby. So if we did have another child, I think he would be all for it.
Alyssa: He’d be on board right away this time?
Carrie: Yeah, yeah. And then that leads us into the postpartum, and for me, that service was invaluable. I don’t know what I would do without having some help. The first month was more like they helped me survive. I’m not working right now, and I wanted to make sure my husband was able to sleep because somebody’s got to bring home the bacon. And so I wanted to make sure that he wasn’t up all night like I was, but I would look at my Fitbit, and I thought, oh, my gosh. I am not getting any sleep at all!
Alyssa: Getting a lot of steps, but no sleep!
Carrie: I know! Like, okay, moms are not joking! This is reality, what you go through the first month of having a newborn. Some nights, if I got more than 30 minutes of sleep a night, that was good. Or just at one time, in one chunk. My average was maybe three hours or so. But your body just adjusts to it, so you do what you need to do, but without having the doulas, it would have been rough. And I think they started out maybe around ten hours or maybe a little bit more right at first. Now my daughter is three months, and we still have the doulas. We made a decision, and for my sanity, we still have the doulas coming about ten hours a week. So it went from survival to now giving me part of my life back, but it’s giving me a break now.
Alyssa: You went from survival mode to thriving; surviving to thriving.
Carrie: Yeah, and our daughter loves the doulas. She’s so happy. It’s almost been such a process of they get to grow with her. The babies grow. I didn’t know; they grow a lot between newborns and three months, and she’s so big now, and she’s giggling. So the doulas get to see that and be a part of her life.
Alyssa: They will be so sad when you’re done. They will be so sad. That’s the hardest part of being a postpartum doulas is being with a family for that long, especially with you, because they were with you through pregnancy, labor, delivery, and now months postpartum. Usually, those relationships don’t just abruptly end. We’ll still have contact somehow.
Carrie: Well, and another thing I wanted to comment, too, that compared to just a babysitter or getting some external help, the doulas are so reliable. I know Julie, if she’s supposed to be there at 2:00, it’s 2:00. She is rolling in at 1:59.
Alyssa: You know something’s wrong if she’s not there at 2:00.
Carrie: Yeah, she’s very punctual. So a few weeks ago — I think our daughter was ten weeks at this point, and I was having some issues going on, and I thought it was just food poisoning, and like a typical female, I just put it off, like, oh, it’s going to be fine, you know, hide the pain. And after day three, I’m like, okay, something’s not right. I can barely stand up. So I went to urgent care, and I had appendicitis. The doctor at urgent care said I had to go straight to the ER, and I asked if they were going to do surgery right now, and he’s like, yep! So I call Mark, and we don’t know what we’re going to do because we don’t have the help and it’s Sunday. We try not to bother the doulas on the weekend, but Mark called the doulas, and within an hour, they were at the house. With them working as a team, usually either Julie or Tricia can always make it, and they were a lifesaver. So my biggest advice for anybody that is deciding if a doula is worth it — if you have the financial means to do both the birth, and the postpartum, do it if you can. It’s a game changer, and if they don’t have the financial means to do both, the postpartum for me probably was the biggest help. I mean, if I had to choose. I wouldn’t want to choose, but if I had to choose, I would choose just having postpartum help.
Alyssa: I agree, because even if you wouldn’t have had the support through pregnancy and birth, and let’s say you had this traumatic experience, having a postpartum doula to then talk to you about that and go through the emotions of that and talk about the traumatic story — you’d still get all that emotional help afterwards.
Carrie: Yeah, the baby’s here, no matter what.
Alyssa: Right, and as we see depression rates and anxiety rates climbing, especially with new mothers, postpartum support is critical. That’s where my heart is, so I agree with you.
Carrie: It was interested because I’ve been given the depression surveys every time I go in, even to take my daughter to the doctor. I always get a survey. Luckily, I’ve been fine, but the only time I ever got a little depressed was after this second surgery because I was starting to finally bounce back and get back into my groove. I wasn’t working out like I used to be working out before, but I was getting my life back, and then I had this, another setback. And then that’s kind of when I got sad, but luckily, I bounced back really quickly, and it wasn’t bad for me. But I can see how easy it is to get into spaces that are darker than you want to be in.
Alyssa: Without even realizing it’s happening, sometimes.
Carrie: Yeah, absolutely.
Alyssa: You just wake up and there you are, and how do I get myself out if I have no support?
Carrie: Yes. And the doulas are always so positive.
Alyssa: You have an amazing team. Julie and Tricia are so wonderful.
Carrie: They are, they are. We share so many pictures back and forth, and I even — sadly, I shared — it had been 12 days since our daughter had had a bowel movement, and…
Alyssa: Did you send a poop picture?
Carrie: I did! She did it while we were at our friend’s house in the middle of dinner, and they had cooked this nice dinner for us.
Alyssa: Of course!
Carrie: And she was kind of fussy and she wasn’t crying, and Mark grabbed her, and he said, “Oh, she’s kind of sweaty.” And then he’s like, “That’s not sweat!”
Alyssa: Everywhere, right?
Carrie: Twelve days of backed-up!
Alyssa: That’s what I tell clients. You know, if they go a few days, it’s not good, but I mean, it can happen, but I just warn you — watch out. It’s all coming out.
Carrie: I was holding off on all the Miralax until after we didn’t have any plans, but no, she let it go.
Alyssa: She got it out!
Carrie: Yeah, she did!
Alyssa: So what’s been the biggest joy of being a new mom?
Carrie: Now that she’s kind of getting past the big blog phase, now she’s starting to laugh and make squealing noises now, so it’s very interesting watching them. Every time they learn to do something new, they keep doing it. So that’s the biggest joy, I feel like, just watching her learn. We’re just showing her the world right now, and it’s pretty cool. Just seeing her learn and making all sorts of new noises and her eyes and having her look at you and just smile.
Alyssa: She knows that you’re Mommy.
Carrie: Yeah, yeah! It just makes you tear up. And then also seeing my husband. You never know how a guy is going to handle that new baby, and he doesn’t know, but seeing how Mark was transformed, and he’s just this doting dad now, and he is so in love. And he was probably more in love because he was taking care of her because I had a C-section, so he had to take care of the dirty diapers right at first and do a lot of it. Seeing him just mold to being Dad right away was breathtaking, and it was such an awesome experience.
Alyssa: It is fun to see dads turn to mush when they meet their babies. So if you had to choose — we’ve talked a lot about postpartum support, but if you had to choose one thing that you wanted to tell a mother — let’s say they could only afford a birth doula. What’s the main thing? Would it be for you or for your husband? Who was it most life-changing for?
Carrie: It was more life-changing, I feel like, for me, because I was the one going through the labor. Once the nurses knew I had a doula — and the nurses were great, but they have so many other patients that they’re also visiting at that time, too, so they were able to kind of back off me and let Tricia help, and she was able to just understand what my body was going through, because I didn’t know what I was going through at the time. She was able to see the contractions that I was having on the monitor and say, okay, you’re starting a contraction right now. And my husband wouldn’t have been able to go through that with me. He was so green and didn’t know. But she was also able to put me in different positions, and then also let me know what my options were. I was at five centimeters for, like, twelve hours. And I just wasn’t moving, so it was nice getting Tricia’s point of view of, okay, what would be the best avenue to go down? Through the whole process, she just really helped me, as a doctor or a nurse would, even though she’s not medically trained. But I was a hundred percent comfortable with her.
Alyssa: So she would offer you some suggestions, and then let you and Mark talk that through and see what would be the best option?
Carrie: Yeah, she had been through so many different births, and every birth is different, but she was able to just give me advice on what she had seen and what she had also gone through, and she had twins. So she’s been through a lot, and she also has an older son, too, so she’s been through labor two times, but technically three times because she has three kids. So she has a lot of advice, and I always learn from people that have been through the situation before. So it was nice having her feedback.
Alyssa: And it was never, like you said, a judgment. You didn’t ever feel like she was telling you this is what you need to do or this is what you have to do?
Carrie: Absolutely not. And when it was time for Mark and I to make the decision or just talk about it, we just asked Tricia to go get coffee, and we talked about it. But it was nice having her feedback or her suggestions on different avenues we could take. Not that we didn’t trust the doctors and the nurses, but we had a relationship with Tricia.
Alyssa: So if you had to tell someone in a nutshell, what does a birth doula do? Like, if you had to give an elevator speech for someone, even after listening to this, if someone’s still like, well, hmm? So they just sit there and give you advice? What do they do? What would you tell somebody? You just find out you’re pregnant; you don’t know what a doula is. What does a birth doula do?
Carrie: So the birth doula made the experience a positive one, and whether that was by giving a massage or just helping with breathing and different positions to help make it more comfortable to give birth. I did have an epidural at one point, so I didn’t do it naturally, and ultimately, I had a C-section, but Tricia was able to put me in different positions to make that pain easier, before the epidural. It’s kind of all mush now, the memories of the actual birth, but I do know that Tricia was there for every step of it. She was such an integral part of it. It was almost like we were one. She just helped with the pain, even though she wasn’t giving me drugs, but she helped make things a lot easier. For a birth doula, it just meant, for me, an easier pregnancy, to deal with the unknown that I didn’t know what I was getting myself into.
Alyssa: And then what about finding out you have a C-section?
Carrie: I just wanted that thing out!
Alyssa: Right! People often wonder, well, what is a birth doula going to do if you have a C-section, and they don’t think about that immediately afterwards time period. Who’s there?
Carrie: Yeah, good question, because she was actually also a lifesaver for the cord blood donation. We decided to do that because our doctor had mentioned that they are just making a lot of advancements on what they can use the cord blood for down the road, even helping with autism and different things. So we decided that we wanted to store the cord blood. But there’s a procedure that not all the nurses knew what to do, and our birth doula, Tricia, was able to take that in her hands. She wanted to make sure that everything was handled properly and got where it needed to go. So when we actually got out of recovery from the C-section — the C-section happened really quickly, and it wasn’t an emergency, but our doctor gave us an option. She said we can do this, and Mark and I talked about it for probably less than five minutes. We were like, it’s been twelve hours. Let’s do this. So we went in, and before you know it…
Alyssa: There’s a crying baby!
Carrie: There’s our daughter! But then the cord blood — that went back to recovery, and as far as I know, Tricia helped to orchestrate that whole process, making that happen. She was a lifesaver on that end because then we would have just wasted our money. She was able to come back in recovery, and it was so nice having her meet our daughter. And then I told her to get home because she had been awake for I don’t know how many hours. It was 1:00 in the morning, and I think she joined us at 11:00 AM. So it was a very long day.
Alyssa: Like, 14 hours or something?
Carrie: Yeah, it was a long day for her. So I told her to go home, and then I went back to the room.
Alyssa: Thank you for sharing. I know that they just adore your family and they’re going to be so sad when this time ends, but our jobs as doulas are temporary. We know that going in.
Carrie: It’s hard. I don’t know how you guys do it. It’s kind of like fostering an animal.
Alyssa: Right?
Carrie: I don’t know how people just let them go.
Alyssa: I know, you make these connections. But Grand Rapids is small, and I’m sure that relationship won’t doesn’t end, like I said before. They’ll be in touch for a long time. And then if you do get pregnant again, who knows, right?
Carrie: I know who to call!
Alyssa: Well, thanks for coming on! We’re going to have you on again another time to talk about a whole different issue, but thanks for joining us today!
Today Katie Kimball of Kitchen Stewardship and Kids Cook Real Food tells us how to start our babies and get our toddlers eating healthy food. Don’t forget her free download – 10 Snacks your Preschooler Can Make Today! You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Hello! Welcome to another episode of Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa Veneklase, co-owner and postpartum doula. And today we’re talking to Katie Kimball again of Kitchen Stewardship. Hi, Katie.
Katie: Hey, Alyssa. Thanks for having me!
Alyssa: Yeah! So we are going to talk today – we talked to you last time about having kids in the kitchen, but we want to kind of shift gears and talk about how to get good eating habits started early for our kids and then get some tips from you on how to do it, especially through those toddler years when they seem to be picky and hate everything you put in front of them. How do you deal with that?
Katie: Yes, we can do this!
Alyssa: I guess where would you tell a parent to start?
Katie: Well, so the big word that I’ve picked up – I have 4 kids, and so I’ve been a mom for 13 years; kind of been around the block with this. And I was so stressed about feeding my child when my first was a baby. I remember nearly karate-chopping my husband’s uncle in the arm because he had some Cool-Whip on his finger and was going to offer it to my seven-month-old. I was like, “No! You can’t! No!” Right, that was going to literally kill him. I’m not a fan of Cool-Whip, but I could have chilled out a little more. I did a great, really informative to me, interview with a naturopath who specializes in kids’ nutrition a few years back, and she said, actually, the most current research shows that it’s the most important for kids’ palettes and mouths and bodies to be exposed to the widest variety of foods possible, even before six months, even before seven months, like when we’re usually starting to feed at six months. So just allowing them to smell or just have little licks, little tastes, of everything you’re eating. It’s almost like an inoculation. It’s almost like an inoculation to the world where they’ll be less likely to get allergies. And here, again, 13 years ago when my youngest was a baby, we were told do NOT give them any highly-allergenic foods until after one; you know, no peanuts until after two. So we do what we can with what we know, but that’s the most current research, actually, is that we just kind of need to expose them to all sorts of foods, and even up until 12 months, the function of the sitting-up kind of eating with a spoon or on a high chair tray is mostly just exposure and exploration. And so that takes a lot of pressure off Mom. It’s not about calories. It’s not about nutrition. They’re getting that from the breastmilk or formula they’re drinking.
Alyssa: Right. Yeah, I love the word “exploration” because, you know, around that four- to six-month mark, that’s really all they’re doing is exploring, and my daughter, before she wanted to eat solid foods, would lick, you know. I would give her little tastes of soup or whatever it was off my finger, and she would love it. And that’s such a great tip for parents with babies. Just let them try it. See what happens. They’re not chewing. They’re not going to choke.
Katie: Yeah. So I’m not a huge proponent of baby food, especially the cereal, because there isn’t much nourishment in that, so why are we pushing it so hard? But really just putting little mushy things or finger-food things on the tray and letting them explore. As long as everything is whole foods, I don’t think you can go wrong. Now, no added sugars, of course, right? We don’t want any food coloring, you know. But if it’s little pieces of avocado and little pieces of ground beef or a bean, you know, a little black bean that you mush under your thumb so that it’s not too round. There’s so many soft foods that are just soft or that you can cook to be soft and the kids can just explore. So that’s kind of a nice load off of a mom’s mind that, chill. Chill is the word of the day when it comes to feeding your babies.
Alyssa: So what do you do, then, when it’s like, oh, I’ve done such a great job; my kid will eat anything – and then they turn two, and what the heck happened?
Katie: Oh, my gosh. It happens to almost every family, and the good news is it’s completely developmentally appropriate because at age two to three, the kids are realizing that they’re separate from their parents, and, oh my goodness, they have opinions, you know, and they’re really testing their boundaries. So they’re trying to figure out where my will ends and where my parents’ begins. So they’re going to test that in every way they can, but especially when it comes to eating, sleeping, and pooping, because those are the things we cannot force them to do.
Alyssa: Right, right.
Katie: No matter how hard we try, much to parents’ chagrin. And so again, the good news is you’re really going to have to chill and realize that it’s normal, totally normal for them to say no to something they used to like, even if they liked it yesterday. They may say no to it today. They might like it again tomorrow. And so I often tell parents who are in that phase, that picky eating phase from two to five, that you just have to be more stubborn and more persistent than your child until they turn six-ish.
Alyssa: Yeah, my daughter just did that to me the other day. She’s five, and she has loved avocados and guacamole for years, and then all of a sudden, she didn’t. Then she told me last week, “Mommy, I decided I like avocados again.”
Katie: It is tough, and I think the risk is if we give in, if we’re like, “Oh, she doesn’t like avocados or guacamole anymore, so I just won’t serve it ever.” Well, then she probably never would have come back around to it, or the chances would be slim. So our job as parents is just to continue to serve good, healthy foods. Obviously, you have to be eating good, healthy foods, but serving whole foods and a variety of fruits and vegetables and protein sources and expecting that they will change over time. I think in America, especially, unfortunately, we fall into this terrible rut of feeding kids what they like and then complaining that they’re not eating better. And it’s like, well, that’s because your expectations are this teeny-tiny box of what they like, and they’re not going to push out of that. So we’ve got to raise our expectations and realize, you know, that our 20-something year old child’s palette is not going to be the same as our 3-year-old’s, and so we’re just going to continue to offer good things and feed them good things, and they can choose how much they eat and when they eat, as long as we’re not letting them feast on junk food outside of meals. We can win. We can win after they’re in, like, first grade. They come around to all the green things.
Alyssa: Yeah, that’s good. It gives us hope, right?
Katie: Yes!
Alyssa: And it’s funny that you say “in America” because every time I go to a restaurant and you look at the kids’ menu, there’s always the same five options. It’s mac and cheese. It’s a hot dog. It’s a hamburger. It’s a cheeseburger. You know, and it’s all unhealthy. They don’t have any good options, so I end up having to split, like order one healthy meal and split it with my daughter, and it is really frustrating when you’re trying to have your children eat healthy, but there’s no healthy options on a kids’ menu.
Katie: Yes, it’s counter-cultural to feed our kids vegetables, so we have to be really ready, like we would anything for our kids, right? Ready to be the mama bear and put up the fight.
Alyssa: Right, right. And I have to ask all the time, “Do you have any vegetables that I could add instead of fries?” And they’ll look at me, like, well, what kind of vegetables? Anything!
Katie: It’s getting better. I have to say, the pendulum is swinging in the right direction, and it’s very exciting to watch and to push it as hard as I can.
Alyssa: Well, you have created a PDF for us to help parents who maybe have had trouble with the process of getting their kids to eat healthy foods, and it’s 10 Snacks Your Preschooler Can Make Today. Tell us where can we find it and what’s on this, and maybe a couple of the ten snacks that are on there?
Katie: Sure thing. Well, you can download that for free. And the idea here is that one way to get kids to eat better – because, again, they’re testing those boundaries – one way to get those young preschoolers to eat better is to get them involved because when they get involved, whether it’s growing food, choosing it at the grocery store or farmer’s market, planning a meal, preparing a meal, serving a meal – any involvement in any way helps them to feel connected to that food and they’re much, much more likely to try it joyfully or at least be open and having a better attitude at the meal. So we want to get those kids in the kitchen, you know, using tools, and so we teach them simple things like using a butter knife to slice bananas or make ants on a log and different ways to slice cheese. There’s actually a homemade gelatin in there that uses 100% grape juice, which is still not health food, but it’s way better than Jello from the box. And it’s really fun. It’s a really fun activity for kids to make with an adult. So some of the recipes in there are things a three-year-old could do pretty much start to finish, and then some are kind of a half-and-half, like a fun thing for a kid to do with a parent.
Alyssa: Yeah, I think that’s a great tool. You know, kids that age love to be involved, but in a sense, they’re kind of followers. They like to do what their friends are doing. They want to do what you’re doing, and if they know that you’re cooking and they’ve helped, they see that as something that they want to take part in, and they will probably eat it or at least try it, right? They’re more likely to try it.
Katie: Yeah, it totally increases your chances, and the pickier a child is – and some kids really have some processing issues where food maybe tastes so bold and vibrant to them that any new food is nearly terrifying because they’re afraid that it will overwhelm their senses, and that’s becoming more and more common, and it’s okay. We can work within what our kids’ bodies are telling us, and it’s still, even with sensory processing disorder, the goal is still continual exposure. So a normal kid might need two or three or ten exposures to, let’s say, broccoli. A kid who’s processing the senses a little different might need 50 or 100. It’s a little bit a longer game with them, and you have to be really patient. And that’s not every kid. That’s just the ones that are so picky. Their tags are itchy. They don’t like any spicy foods, or maybe they like only really spicy foods. This is kind of a segue, but the ones who are saying my kid is way pickier than that – it’s still the same process; it’s just a long time and continuing to be patient and expose them.
Alyssa: Yeah, it’s a lot of patience for the parents then.
Katie: Yes.
Alyssa: Again, a daily struggle, right?
Katie: Yes!
Alyssa: Is there anything that we didn’t mention about tips for our toddlers?
Katie: Be consistent; keep the sugar out. Actually, the grandma training is something I like to talk to parents about. It’s not only grandmas, but some other adults in our lives, and sometimes us, too; we just want to love our kids through suckers and popsicles, and so it’s been my mission in life to train the grandma in our life who tries to do that that it’s not depriving a child if they don’t know what it is.
Alyssa: Right!
Katie: So candy is this secretive thing that my children have no idea exists, for as long as humanly possible, because if they don’t know it exists, it’s not a battle; it’s not a struggle, and it’s certainly not a deprivation. They just think raspberries are the most amazing thing ever encountered, right? So a bowl of raspberries is as good to them as a bowl of gummy bears. So that’s a super thing, if you’ve got a really young child. Just keep all the junk food as an unknown in their world.
Alyssa: Yeah, I think that is a really hard thing. You know, we teach a grandparents’ class for other reasons, but part of that is the struggle that this different generation doesn’t understand that sugar is a bad thing. They learned that sugar just rots your teeth. They have no idea that it does all the other bad things that it does to us internally, and starting our kids off so young with sugar in everything – sugar cereals and candy and just everything. They don’t get it, and it becomes a source of contention between the grandparents and the parents.
Katie: Totally, yeah. They think we’re depriving our kids of the joy of life, right? And it’s been fun, actually, watching my mother-in-law just see our kids. Like my third child literally asks for a bowl of feta cheese, like a container of feta cheese, to himself for his birthday from her. And it cracks her up, but I think she’s finally getting it. Like, if you don’t let them know that the craziness is out there, they’re happy. They’re still super happy, and you can give them love in many other ways other than sugar, including through food, like real, whole, healthy food.
Alyssa: That’s great advice! Well, tell our listeners again how to find this PDF.
Katie: Yeah, so 10 Snacks Your Preschooler Can Make Today at our website. It’s a free download, and we’re so excited to share that with you.
Alyssa: I’m so excited to download it for my daughter and do it today!
Katie: Good deal.
Alyssa: All right, well, thanks for visiting us again. Hopefully we’ll talk to you soon!
Katie: Absolutely. Thank you, Alyssa!
Alyssa: And you can always email us at info@goldcoastdoulas.com and find us on Facebook and Instagram. Remember, these moments are golden.
Do babies really need a chiropractic adjustment? Listen to Dr. Annie of Rise Wellness explain what happens to a baby’s body during pregnancy and delivery and how gentle methods can be extremely effective. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or Soundcloud.
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Alyssa: Hi, welcome back to another episode of Ask the Doulas. I am Alyssa, postpartum doula and co-owner at Gold Coast, and we are talking to Dr. Annie again who is a local chiropractor. Hello!
Dr. Annie: Hello!
Alyssa: Last time you were here, we talked about your Webster certification and what that means for pregnant mothers, and I know that you specifically can work with — there’s a pediatric end to this?
Dr. Annie: Yes!
Alyssa: So tell me what you do with babies and kids and what do you say to parents who are maybe scared to bring their newborn in for a chiropractic adjustment? What does it look like?
Dr. Annie: So first of all, I’d like to say it’s a huge honor when a mom is willing to hand you their newborn baby and ask me to check their baby.
Alyssa: They get it, right?
Dr. Annie: Yeah, they get it, which is such a beautiful thing. They understand that the nervous system runs everything in the body and how important that is in development, in development of a child. So that’s just an awesome honor. I’ve had the opportunity to adjust a few newborns the day after they were born, which is so exciting. The analysis and adjustment for an infant is different. For anyone who’s familiar with chiropractic care, it can be kind of scary for some adults even. Analysis and adjustment of an infant is totally different from that. We say that the amount of pressure that you use to adjust an infant is the same that you would use if you wanted to check the ripeness of a tomato.
Alyssa: It’s very gentle, right?
Dr. Annie: Very, very, very gentle.
Alyssa: I’ve seen you adjust newborn babies in the hospital, Dr. Rachel’s babies. Very, very gentle.
Dr. Annie: It is, yeah, and part of that is because their spine is still cartilage. They’re not ossified yet, so we’re not trying to move bones.
Alyssa: They probably wouldn’t even crack if you tried, right?
Dr. Annie: No, no, exactly. You’re not looking for an audible crack in a child. No, not at all. We don’t do anything like that. Again, this is more — especially with kids, we’re looking a lot more at the neurology and how that is affected, and so in order to influence the neurology and make sure that everything is working appropriately and lined up appropriately, it doesn’t take a lot of pressure to adjust them. Now, why would we adjust an infant? I always think that’s a good question because babies don’t have back pain. A lot of people think that’s what chiropractic is good for. But when kids are coming through the birth canal, everything is compressed. The sutures kind of fold over each other, and then when the baby comes through, they’re often pulled out by their neck and tractioned by their neck, so that can lead to the very first subluxation. If they aren’t in the correct position for labor, once the uterus starts contracting — so let’s say a baby’s breech. Once the uterus starts contracting, it’s going to push down on the top of their head, too, so that can cause compression to their cervical spine. Kids who are born via C-section don’t go through the birth canal, but still, they find the head and then they pull them and kind of twist them as they’re coming out of the mom’s uterus, and they will pull them out like that. So there’s still a lot of traction that is placed on the infant’s cervical spine, and so that traction can misalign their bones in the very beginning. Now, if you have a misalignment there and your brain isn’t communicating with your body, that’s the main way that kids are getting their sensory input. That’s how they’re developing their brain, so being able to adjust them right when they’re born is an amazing thing. You can set them up for an entirely different life just by changing that sensory input and making sure that everything is in good alignment so they can develop appropriately.
Alyssa: I had clients who had horrible colic and their babies just won’t stop crying and they don’t know why, and oftentimes a chiropractic adjustment takes care of that for several reasons. You know, if things aren’t talking, or maybe there is some sort of pain, right? Even for nine months, you’re curved up in the fetal position. I mean, I’ve got to imagine that’s maybe not putting strain on an infant’s back, but…
Dr. Annie: I don’t know why, but there’s a common misconception that babies don’t feel pain the way that adults do, but that’s totally wrong. That comes up in the circumcision talk, which is way out of my scope, but babies do feel pain. They do feel that, and if you have a colicky baby, I think parents are attuned with their children enough to see that they’re in pain.
Alyssa: There’s something causing the pain.
Dr. Annie: Absolutely. And so with colic, with GERD and reflux and things like that, things that kids often have trouble with, the mechanism for that is that the rest of the body is run by your nervous system. Your brain coordinates and controls everything that goes on in your system, so if there is a miscommunication there, then things can’t function the way that they’re supposed to. So that’s why getting an adjustment can help with those issues. So it’s not necessarily that we’re treating the colic or we’re treating the constipation or ear infection. That’s another big thing that parents will bring their kids to a chiropractor for is ear infections. We’re not treating those things directly. What we’re doing is we’re treating the subluxation, the misalignment, that’s affecting the nervous system and allowing that to clear up, allowing the communication to restore, and allowing the body to heal itself the way it’s supposed to.
Alyssa: So what would you tell somebody who just doesn’t get chiropractic care? They don’t understand why you would need it, why would I bring my baby there. You know, if the body can heal itself, let it heal itself. What do you say to that? How do you counter that?
Dr. Annie: I do think the body can heal itself, which is awesome, as long as it has the right tools and the right resources and the right communication. So if you didn’t work out or if you didn’t eat healthy, your body could still function pretty well for a while until diseases and things like that caught up with it. The body is really good at adapting until it isn’t. But kind of the same thing: if you have a misalignment causing that interference to the communication, your body is going to keep functioning pretty good until it doesn’t, and so the thing with that interference to the nervous system is that we don’t necessarily see those things on a day-to-day basis stacking up. Sometimes people will have trauma and it’s like, this is what caused this misalignment and ever since then, I’ve had neck pain, and I just need that to be adjusted back. But a lot of times, it’s a lot of little things that are contributing, and then we say, you know, what was the one thing that triggered this? Well, it wasn’t. It was a lot of things. It was probably since childhood when you were born and you were pulled out and then you started walking and maybe you kept falling onto your butt or you fell out of a tree as a kid or you broke your arm falling off the playground and things like that accumulate, and then when we’re adults, we have all this pain. So why not address that when we’re a child? Why not make sure everything is lined up, everything is communicating the way that it’s supposed to and healing the way it’s supposed to so then those things don’t compound down the road? It’s much more preventative and wellness model rather than trying to fix you when you’re old and crickety.
Alyssa: Which is a hard concept for some people to understand, right? Like actually preventing these things from happening in the first place.
Dr. Annie: Right. But a lot of times, that is something that a lot of people will have to find out on their own, too. I’m here for education and information. If somebody doesn’t want to trust that, then…
Alyssa: They can come in and pick your brain for a little bit, right?
Dr. Annie: Yeah, absolutely. I’ll answer any questions they have, but sometimes you have to find out information on your own.
Alyssa: Right, until, like you said, we’re good at adapting until it doesn’t. And then when it doesn’t, then that’s when you go, oh, yeah, maybe she was right.
Dr. Annie: And usually it’s something small like picking up a laundry basket, and it’s like, I threw out my back just picking up this laundry basket!
Alyssa: Tell us where people can find Rise Wellness.
Dr. Annie: You can find us online at our website. Or we’re also on Facebook and Instagram at @risewellnesschiro.
In this episode our dear friend, Bri Luginbill of BetterBodyImageConference.com tells us about her struggle with depression and anxiety before, during, and after pregnancy. You can listen to this complete podcast episode on iTunes or SoundCloud.
Alyssa: Welcome to another episode of Ask the Doulas. I’m Alyssa, and today I’m so excited to be talking with my friend Bri. Hey, Bri.
Bri: Hi, everybody.
Alyssa: She is with the Better Body Image Conference, and we did an event together – how many months ago was that?
Bri: It was this March.
Alyssa: Was it this year?
Bri: It was this year. Doesn’t it feel like it was last year?
Alyssa: Forever ago, uh-huh.
Bri: It was this year, March. I believe the 11th. Crazy. It feels like eons ago.
Alyssa: Yeah. Well, maybe since I mentioned it, tell everyone a little bit about what that conference was, and then at the end, we can ask you for more information.
Bri: So that conference was a way to connect people in the community with different organizations that are very passionate about body image and just the mental and physical health, as well as social change, that can happen in our communities around that certain issue. And so Gold Coast Doulas actually did a workshop on body image with pregnancy and postpartum bodies and had a lot of intimate conversations with different moms or even moms-to-be.
Alyssa: Yeah, we loved that conversation. It was – when our time was up, I remember someone came in and said, “Time’s up,” and everyone was like, “No, no, we just got started!” So it would be fun to continue that conversation at another point.
Bri: Definitely.
Alyssa: Or even to have a podcast about it. That could be a good one, too.
Bri: Do a mini-event. We’re trying to do mini-events now, too. But we’ll talk later about that.
Alyssa: So Bri and I see each other all around, and the last event we went to was just, again, the postpartum time with moms comes up a lot. It’s just a topic that we always talk about, and you even spoke to the group about the struggles that you had, so I think – I just want to kind of continue that conversation, the two of us together, and let’s just have a real conversation about what it was like for you having a baby and was it even – did you struggle during pregnancy, too?
Bri: During pregnancy I struggled more physically. I had a lot of the sciatic nerve pain that a lot of people had, so I did go see – in my third trimester, it was weekly appointments with my DO just to get adjusted. But the mental health was still okay there. I think as soon as I had my baby, it was a very – I even had a lot of blood loss. I almost hemorrhaged, too, during it, so I think when I had my kid, I was just exhausted, and I remember them putting him on me, and just being like, hey, there’s a baby there, but not really feeling that, like, instant love because I was just so exhausted and tired. And so from that first point, I’m like, whoa, I was told I was supposed to feel instant love, instant excitement, and I was just worn out.
Alyssa: You weren’t the photo of the mom in the hospital looking lovingly down at her baby; you were like, just let me sleep. What’s on my chest?
Bri: Yeah. And then I even had to get walked to – when I went to the bathroom, another blood clot passed. I almost actually passed out. I remember telling the nurse, “I can’t hear anything, but I know you’re there. I’m starting to not be able to see. I’m just letting you know.” So that was my experience, which some people even have it crazier than that, but I think I was just trying to make sure I was awake enough to be there, like not passing out, to be there for him more than, oh, my gosh, I didn’t have that moment to really be like understanding what was happening because of my health at that point in time. And then after that, I do have a history in my family, and I have anxiety and depression, which I feel like is not a fair combination to have. You get anxious, and then your thoughts race, and then you feel bad about yourself, and then it’s just like a cycle. So I’ve learned over time coping strategies and things like that.
Alyssa: And this something you struggled with before having a baby?
Bri: Even before having a baby.
Alyssa: So you knew that your risk after was so much higher?
Bri: Yeah, definitely. And I remember coming home, and we entered the door, and I just was bursting into tears, and I knew. I also have a hard time with transitions. I take them a lot harder than most people, and so I knew even with that it was going to be a little bit harder.
Alyssa: Probably the biggest transition of your life thus far.
Bri: Very true. So I was super honest. That’s the thing my mom taught me growing up. She said, our family has these things; I’m going to tell you, and you just – if you feel anything, make sure you tell people. So her training me in middle school with that still helped, and so I was able to just let people know, like, I know that I’m feeling these things, and logically and practically, I shouldn’t be sad; I shouldn’t be like this. I just – it’s just so hard to fight that. And then I was anxious at night because I was worried for him and just wanted to make sure he was okay, my baby, and then I was kind of depressed during the day just because that anxiety wore me out. And I would go and sleep in the sun in our hammock because it was summer time, just to get some sunlight. I actually did talk to my doctor and I did start taking medicine as soon as I could after getting out of the hospital, just because I had taken those before. Zoloft is what I took, even before him, so I was doing all the things to try to deal with it, but I wasn’t being very compassionate to myself to just let myself be, and so I think my word of advice and encouragement to people is if you are feeling those feelings, as long as you’re voicing them and getting help and asking for support, just don’t beat yourself up too much. You’re already doing so much, and it’s hard not to beat yourself up, but you’ve got this whole new world that’s going on, and you deserve to also be understanding to yourself, and you’re trying to understand what’s happening.
Alyssa: Did actually getting on medicine seem to help? Or not enough?
Bri: It seemed like it helped a little bit, but it was still learning a new system, learning a new normal, learning what this means, and it really does take a village. My mom helped a lot. I had different friends that were helping. I needed a lot of support from my husband. There were times where we would wake up together at night with the baby because it was just nice, even if he was just sitting next to me, just having that person there. And so, yeah, it was hard. My anxiety, I knew was there because I remember just being so worried, is he eating enough? Is he getting enough food? And I would line up these bottles and then I would just obsess with counting and all that, to a point that was detrimental, and I remember I was over-pumping and all I was doing was pumping and taking care of my kid and eating, and that’s all I was focusing on for a few weeks, and I remember my husband pulling out all of the milk from the freezer, and he was like, there are 30 bags of 4-ounce milks here. He is getting fed enough, and you’ve got enough. I just think I was worried about my stock because I have to go back to weddings and I have to go back to work. I was a wedding photographer, and just trying to make sure my stock was there.
Alyssa: Anxiety turned a little bit OCD, it sounds like.
Bri: Yes. Yeah, so I just like to be open about it because I feel like a lot of people have their own experience of what goes on, whether they have anxiety or depression or not, but we’re usually always looking to someone to tell us – which is what I did. I would ask all these different people of, what did you do? What did you do? Or what was your experience? And none of their experiences were like mine, so I felt like I was doing something wrong, when in reality, everyone has their own unique experience, so don’t compare yourself to someone else’s postpartum story. Just let yours be yours, and know that the one constant is that everyone’s journey is going to be different, and that’s okay and that’s good. But I think sometimes, too, we just want to do it right because that’s what we’re taught in our society. “Do it the right way.” And there’s really no right way. The only right way is making sure your baby is fed, has shelter, and that they’re loved. And how the system happens for that is up to you and up to what your body and your family is able to do. I did end up doing – I stopped breastfeeding at nine months just because he started not being interested anymore. It’d be two minutes, and then, hey, what’s over here, looking around, and then he was always kind of a chomper, and I never discouraged that because I didn’t understand at the time, and my lactation consultant was like, uh-oh. And so I was about done once he had teeth, too. So for me, that ended at nine months, and then we did formula. And sometimes people have to supplement or do both or do all formula, and that’s – it doesn’t really matter. It’s whatever works for anybody.
Alyssa: By the time you got to the nine-month mark and weaned him, did that help your mental health in and of itself, or had you gotten pretty much to a better place by that point?
Bri: It did actually help my mental health even more just because then it was one less thing to think about, and I do think – I don’t know; I’m not a doctor, but I think your hormones after you’re done breastfeeding – do they normalize more?
Alyssa: I feel like they’re always fluctuating after you have your baby. Five and a half years later, I still think mine are all wacky.
Bri: Yeah, you know, I would agree with that, too. I think I felt a little bit less – maybe it wasn’t chemically after stopping breastfeeding, but at least one less thing to have to do.
Alyssa: Well, there are hormones involved because, you know, there’s the hormones that actually produce, that allow you to produce the milk, so they are changing, but I think for someone with anxiety, who’s worried about breastfeeding and pumping and how much milk – now you can give them solid foods and a bottle that’s very quantifiable.
Bri: And I don’t have to worry about producing that.
Alyssa: And again, like you said, everyone’s story is different. For some moms, weaning becomes a source of depression because now it’s the end of this time with your baby that you’ll never get back.
Bri: That’s true.
Alyssa: So you really just can’t compare.
Bri: Yeah, no comparing whatsoever. I thought of wanting to make some sort of book, and it wouldn’t be photo; it would be more of just stories, and it would be everyone’s experience postpartum, like just different people’s stories of postpartum, and then you can gift it to people who are pregnant but tell them not to read this until you feel like you want to read other people’s stories, like after you’ve had your kid and maybe you’re tearing your hair out, like what is going on, in the thick of it, and then you can see, look, everyone’s had a different experience, and that’s okay. Because it’s something that you don’t want to take away from their pregnancy experience with all this; we don’t want to scare people; we don’t want to also say well, this is what I went through so you should go through this same thing, but having a collection of those stories, when it just seems like so much and you don’t know if what you’re doing is right, look at all these people, and they did it right. Their kid is healthy. Your kid will be healthy, and there’s all different experiences.
Alyssa: They did what’s right for their family.
Bri: Yeah.
Alyssa: In that moment.
Bri: Yeah. But that’s one idea I had recently. I have too many.
Alyssa: That’s funny that you say that really, all that Baby needs is food, shelter, and love. That’s how I end my newborn survival classes. I’m like, all this information that I gave you, if you get nothing else out of this, is keep it simple because there’s just way too much information out there, and Dr. Google is telling you one thing, and your neighbor is telling you another thing, and your mom and your mother-in-law are conflicting things. Keep it simple, and give this baby food and love and shelter. That’s all this baby needs. The rest is just icing on the cake. They’re going to be fine, and you’re going to be great parents. Just keep it simple.
Bri: I love that!
Alyssa: Anything else about your postpartum journey? How old is your son now?
Bri: He is a year and a half.
Alyssa: And how has it gone from the nine-month weaning period to twelve months walking? How has your journey been?
Bri: So he had actually had some – we actually went to food therapy for him, too. So we weaned him at nine months off of breastmilk, and then we did formula. We noticed he was having trouble eating solids. He would try to eat and try to swallow, but then he would gag and sometimes to the point of vomiting. So at first, I thought, you know, maybe it’s just something he’s doing and he’s learning, but it would happen a lot, and so I actually got a request to go to Mary Free Bed, and they were wonderful there. They actually said, yes, he has silent reflux, and so that is why this is happening, and then they were showing how his tongue wasn’t working in the correct ways to swallow and get all the food out of his mouth that he was eating. So we went there for a few sessions and then I just did stuff at home. Also, that of course didn’t help my anxiety, but that’s okay. It really taught me to be patient and to be understanding and being a part of Better Body Image, I don’t want his relationship with food and his body to be stressed from the beginning. He needs to have me be calm so that he doesn’t get a bad relationship with that food from the start, and he needed more of me to be the patient and calm one, and he now is doing great. He has weaned off of bottles now. He does do a bottle of water for comfort sometimes, but he’s drinking his sippy cups. He’s eating lots of food. Our magical food we found that he just could do really well with was cottage cheese, and he loves it and he’ll eat tons of it, and now he’s doing better. He actually ate noodles last night, and he usually never eats noodles, and he ate some chicken, and I was like, whoa! And it was just really exciting. So that’s how his food journey has been more unique, but it’s been really good for me because I’m able to understand the signs better, and he’s a healthy, happy boy. He likes to play. He’s very extroverted, so he likes to go up to people and talk to them. And right now, it’s half-gibberish, half sentences, and the other day I was washing dishes while he was eating some snack, and he goes, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, whoa, you just…
Alyssa: A full sentence!
Bri: Yeah, out of nowhere! But I always ask him that all the time, like, “What are you doing?” And so I thought that was funny, and I just told him, “Well, I’m washing dishes. That’s what I’m doing right now.” And then the other day, my husband said, “Hey, did you go to the doctor today?” And he answered, “I didn’t do it.” And then just went and played. So it’s been a really fun journey. And I’ll say that I know I wouldn’t be the same without having him as my son. There’s something about having a child that does change you in different ways, and it challenges you to be a better version of yourself, more patient, just perseverance to a different degree, and being able to function on less sleep. You still want to get enough sleep, but you realize how much you can actually do in a day vs. when you didn’t have a kid. I’m so much more efficient in certain ways.
Alyssa: I’m definitely more productive. My time is so important, and I get so much done. It’s very valuable; I’ll say that.
Bri: Yeah, very valuable and efficient.
Alyssa: So do you feel like, even though your whole life you’re going to struggle with anxiety and depression, that you’re just learning different ways to cope with these new developmental milestones, and instead of internalizing everything – and it sounds like your husband may be like mine, where he’s very rational?
Bri: He’s very calm.
Alyssa: And says, hey, let’s look at all these bottles you’ve got laid out and you’re counting and all the supplies – my husband did the same thing for me when I was struggling with breastfeeding. He was my voice of reason, so finding somebody like that, that you can talk to and say, okay, how can you calm me down? Tell me something that’s rational. Validate me and understand my feelings, but let’s look at this outcome or this fact.
Bri: Yeah, I definitely think so. I think I’ve learned with him to let go of control more. I’ll still always really – I’m a planner, and I like to do stuff like that, but I’m trying to let go of control more. And then I think also having self-compassion more, which is my new thing I like to teach people about, but just being compassionate towards myself makes things a little bit less extreme or less anxious. So, oops, I lost my temper or something with my son because I was up here and there were so many different things going on that day. Well, I make sure to apologize and hug him, and then that’s that. I forgive myself, and I don’t dwell on it. In the past, I would have, the whole rest of the day, been just dwelling on that, or any event that happens; dwelling on every single thing. And there’s too many things that happen in a day that can bring you down, and if you just take each of them so much and internalize it, you’re going to drive yourself crazy, and it’s just not fair to yourself. So I think also embracing that life is always going to throw you different things, and that’s just another constant that you can know and expect, and just don’t put too many expectations.
Alyssa: My journey is very similar to yours. I think I didn’t realize that I ever had anxiety until I had a kid because I went through a lot of the same struggles you did.
Bri: Yeah, there’s a lot of different exercises I use daily, too. If my mind starts to spiral, I stop that thought, and I go, okay, is this thought – this feeling can be valid, but is this thought truth or a lie? Is this really something that I should think about to that extent? No, it’s probably not, so let’s stop that.
Alyssa: All the would-have, could-have, should-have, right? Like all these things that could happen – well, it didn’t happen. It probably won’t happen. So why am I dwelling on this?
Bri: Exactly.
Alyssa: This intrusive thought of something I’ll never have to deal with. I totally get it. Well, you have your own podcast? Tell us the name of that and where people can find it.
Bri: That podcast is called Compassionately You, and you can find it on iTunes and Google Podcasts. It’s also on my website, and I just host conversations where I have people on and they talk about either a personal journey or a body image journey and we talk in vulnerability in hopes of inspiring other people or if someone went through a similar situation, they can relate and feel that they’re not alone. And we also usually feature people’s businesses in there, as well, during that podcast.
Alyssa: Cool. So the Better Body Image Conference – is it once a year? Are you going to do it every year?
Bri: Yeah, once a year. We are set for next year, same place, Wealthy Street Theater, on March 2nd, 2019, so we’re set for that date. And, actually, our speaker is going to be Diane Bondi, who’s in the yoga world. But we are looking into and we have done a few mini-events where we just partner with an organization or a few and we host – who knows what I can be, but we host different types of mini-events. One was a reshowing of the movie that we showed at our conference this year. I think we are going to possibly be partnering with an organization this December to do another event, and then there might be some in the works for January, as well.
Alyssa: Where do you promote those?
Bri: We usually promote them on our Facebook and on our website, which also just got a redesign. One of our board members is a designer, and the lovely Brittany redesigned it, and it has pictures from last year. I think, actually, our main header image is a picture during the Gold Coast Doulas workshop.
Alyssa: I’ll have to look. I didn’t know you redesigned. I’ll have to look.
Bri: We just did it this week. She’s been working hard on that. And so that’s a lot of fun there.
Alyssa: Awesome. Well, thanks again for doing this. It’s always great to see you and talk to you. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing your story.
Bri: Definitely. Thanks for having me, and if people wanted to follow my Instagram page, I’m pretty vulnerable with just life. So it’s just @briluginbill. I just try to be super vulnerable in my days and let people know, like, hey, if you’re having this type of time, I might be, too.
Alyssa: Well, you can always find us at our website, Instagram, and Facebook, as well. Hopefully we’ll talk to Bri again sometime soon. Hopefully, everyone has a great day!
