December 2024

Kristin Revere and Suzzie Vehrs discuss epidurals as an option in your birth toolbox in the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.  Suzzie is a birth doula and childbirth educator with She Births Bravely.

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Suzzie Vehrs today.  Suzzie is not only a doula, but also a childbirth educator and the founder of She Births Bravely.  Suzzie has worked with hundreds of families on their journey toward childbirth and parenting.  As a mom of two, Suzzie is passionate about empowering parents to make informed decisions about their birthing and parenting experiences.  She uses evidence-based information and practical tools to help parents prepare for birth, whether that be at home or in the hospital, breastfeeding or bottle feeding, and early parenting.  Her classes are designed to be inclusive, respectful, and supportive of all types of birth choices, including natural childbirth, medicated childbirth, and Cesarean birth. 

Welcome, Suzzie!

Hello!  Thank you so much for having me.  It’s so fun to get to collab and talk with other doulas who I love and admire so much!

Well, I am thrilled to chat with you!  And our topic is an important one.  We are going to chat about epidurals, and I love that you are so inclusive, similar to my doula agency, is that you support all types of birth and parenting goals and feeding goals.  I think there is a misconception, even today, with increased awareness for birth doulas, that birth doulas are only for unmedicated births or homebirths.  But at my agency, I’d say half of our clients want an epidural.  I can’t wait to dive into this topic and hear your thoughts on epidurals, not only as a birth doula, but also as a childbirth educator.

My clients are the exact same, and it’s so funny because a lot of my moms look at that and they, 50% of moms are getting epidurals?  Really?  That many people want it?  And the other 50% are saying, oh, my goodness, 50% go without epidurals?  How do they do it?  It’s so great to see when people know what they need and are aware of, like, you know what, I need to have an empowered birth as this.   And the choice will be different for different moms, but as long as it circles back to that feeling of being empowered and being what you need to have a positive and empowering and bonding experience with your family, then the decision is right, yes or no, for an epidural, either way.  So I’m so glad we can talk about it because there are so many misconceptions about what it’s like, what some of the risks are, and why people choose either direction.

Exactly.  I find it interesting, being in this work for going on 12 years, I have clients that want an epidural for one baby and then want to try unmedicated, or the opposite.  So it is interesting.  It’s not just one mindset.  You may want to have a completely different experience, whether it was just to experience the lack of discomfort in labor with an epidural or to be able to move around.  Sometimes with clients the epidural just isn’t working properly and they didn’t have the greatest experience and had poor mobility.  Some clients can get on hands and knees with support and get into all different positions, based on the strength of that epidural and if they have feeling or not.  So it can really vary from baby to baby or individual.

Yeah, absolutely.  I’m curious about – because I brought a bunch of data about the pros and cons, and I really feel like numbers are so important as we’re looking at exploring the fears some people have about epidurals and which ones are really founded or not founded.  But I’m really curious.  There’s a statistic – well, I guess two statistics that I saw early on in my career, actually even before I was a doula when I was making these decisions myself.  One is that nine out of ten women with an epidural get enough pain relief that they don’t need additional medical support with pain.  But then the other is that on average, an epidural lowers pain about three and a half points on a pain scale.  What do you see with your clients as far as how effective epidurals are?

It honestly varies, and I think our bodies are all unique and different.  People have different perceptions of pain, so I think it honestly varies.  I have clients who it’s almost like a party, they feel so good.  They’re putting on music and makeup, getting ready for the birth.  And others are still feeling discomfort.  I’m doing hip squeezes and trying to get them into different positions, and I feel like as a doula, no matter how good the epidural is, that I’m working just as much with my clients who get different pain relief methods, including the epidural, as I do with my unmedicated clients.

Yeah, I feel the same.  I so celebrate when mothers can have the joy and excitement and we can get to that place where the room feels just exciting and is filled with that really positive anticipation and comfort in the moment.  But I don’t necessarily – I think sometimes the expectation is that if I get an epidural, I’ll be completely out of pain.  But one thing that I think surprises a lot of people with epidurals, even if they lower your pain, they don’t necessarily get you out of all of the pain or pressure.  Some people only get relief on one side of the body initially or might have a window where they still have one spot that’s very hard to get to.

Those hot spots can be uncomfortable, yeah.

But then as labor progresses, some of that pain and pressure comes back, even if you’re getting increased doses and having the anesthesiologist come back.  And even the anxiety piece, even if you do get out of pain, if you’re still – like, that mental aspect of how are you managing your emotions in labor becomes very, very important.  Just because the pain is gone doesn’t meant the worry or the stress is gone.  It seems like a lot of my clients find themselves very stressed out, even after getting the epidural, and that’s something we get to work through and talk through, and it’s nice to have somebody there where you can say, like, is this normal, what I’m feeling?  Or how to advocate if it means getting the anesthesiologist back several times in the room to get an epidural that’s not working adjusted.

Yes.  And sometimes, again, it’s perfect, and they are feeling great.  I had two unmedicated births, so I’ve never personally experienced an epidural, but my clients who do, their experience varies.  Some love it, and with every baby, they want that epidural as soon as possible.  Others want to delay the epidural and get as much movement, work on positioning, until they feel like they need it.  When I started as a doula, there was a certain point when you could no longer ask for an epidural, and now, especially with laboring down being so common in the hospitals I work in, I find that clients can, if they’re pushing for a longer length of time and they’re able to get an anesthesiologist in, then they can get an epidural when they’re in the pushing phase.  I’ve had it happen.  Where before, it was kind of like, well, you’re in transition.  You have to get it now or you don’t get another chance.  That is also a beautiful option, and I feel like there’s so many different reasons for getting an epidural.  You mentioned the mental aspect of it.  There could be some trauma in the past where they really need an epidural to relax their body.

Yeah, and sometimes it’s also about – can I tell you a wild birth story?

Yeah!

One time I was with a mom who was planning a home birth, and her labor went really well until she got to 10cm dilated.  We were at home.  She was pushing probably about two and a half hours with literally no change.  It was so hard.  We decided to transfer to the hospital, and the midwives came with us.  When you do that homebirth transfer, usually, the midwives come.  They talked to the OB, and then they hand off the case and the midwives leave and then you’re with the OB team.  With this mom, we got to the hospital, and  she got an epidural.  And they let her sleep, which is wild, because this is where we’ve been past 10cm, and usually there’s this big thing about not pushing for more than three or four.  But this OB was like, no, we’re just going to restart, so take a sleep.  They didn’t start counting the time pushing until after she woke up and started pushing again.  So from the time she reached 10cm to the time that she had her baby was like nine hours because she had pushed for a few hours, then she got an epidural and had a really nice long sleep, and then she woke up and she had to push more.  And I remember that I was brand new.  This one of my very first, like over five years ago.  And I remember the OB, when they were writing the notes and she was stating the time she started pushing, the nurse was like, oh, you started pushing at home, and the OB looked at me and said no, they’re starting now.  I was like, I’m just going to keep my mouth shut here because I think she’s trying to help.  I didn’t want to get the charting wrong.  It was so interesting to see the OB advocate for the patient in that way.  Like, hey, I know you want this natural birth, and what you might need is time to rest and relax and wait.  And it was amazing that she had this natural vaginal birth that started one way at home, that progressed very normally, that had a blip, you know, an unexpected turn, but then still continued on even with the epidural.  Sometimes tools that we don’t initially think will be part of our plan end up being part of our plan, and that can be a good thing when we meet our needs as they evolve.

Absolutely.  It seems like she didn’t have any additional interventions, which can be a concern for some people with their birth plan with not wanting to have additional interventions.  Obviously, avoiding a Cesarean would be an example of that, and there are stats that an epidural can increase pushing length and lead to other interventions including a surgical birth if mother and baby are not responding well.  But it can also, as you mentioned, be an amazing tool in the toolbox.  For some people, it could have been physical exhaustion for her.  It could have been more of a mental block.  So it’s really hard to tell sometimes, but it was obviously what she needed, and she had a provider who was on board with that.  So I love that story!  Thank you for sharing!

And I’m glad that you brought up some of the risks with the longer pushing.  Should we talk more about some of the reasons why some people avoid epidurals?

Sure, yeah!

Or only use them on an as-needed basis sometimes?

Yes, fill our listeners in as if they’re taking your childbirth course!

Okay!  I guess let’s talk first about the rare but real complications, long term complications, and then the short term, more resolvable things for moms and babies.  Is that okay?

Yes, that’d be great!

I know when I ask people about what they’re thinking about epidurals and why they’re leaning towards one or against one, a lot of people tell me that they’re worried about long term chronic things after labor.  The good news is that for things like chronic headaches, chronic back aches, things that might last 18 months or years after labor, are super rare.  But it’s also important to know that they exist.  Epidurals do go into that spinal space right into your back, and so for things like a chronic headache, about 6 out of 1000 people experience having headaches and 5 out of 1000 for the back ache.  So it’s not a lot of people.  The risk there is super low.  For some people, that’s enough to say that I want to see if I can avoid it.

Absolutely.  And again, everyone’s got their different mindset and goals and as I tell my students and clients, it is important to be flexible in birth.  I’m a fan of calling a birth plan your birth preferences in order to not feel like you have failed if your birth plans change, just like your home birth client.  It’s a perfect example.  If she was not as open to different options, like an epidural, she may have felt like she did not accomplish her goals, but she ended up with a great scenario with a supported transfer and got exactly what she needed.

Exactly, yeah.  Let’s see.  Should we talk about other serious and rare complications with epidurals, as well?  I feel like I don’t want to get too scary with any of the data, but I also feel like when you’re making decisions, it can be really frustrating if you don’t hear about this until after something happens.  Have you ever had any of your clients have the spinal headache?

No.

Okay.  So about 4 out of 1000 people will have a spinal headache, which is actually quite treatable.  But it’s really quite intense.

I’ve had clients with the back issue before.

Yeah, it’s just very unlikely.  There are other short term side effects that are more common.  For example, when you get an epidural, it can drop your blood pressure.  About 14% of women can have shivering, ringing in ears, dizziness, nausea, vomiting.  Some people will get itchy.

Shaky legs is very common.

Yes.  And then you’re also at an increased risk of a fever with an epidural.  About 7% of women who have the epidural for less than six hours will have a fever, but if you have it for 18 or more hours, that goes up to 36%, so if you were thinking about timing for an epidural, sometimes it does make sense to, even if you want an epidural, to try to get as far as you can without it, just because fevers, yes, they can be treated, but sometimes they do lead to Cesareans, things like that, more difficult recoveries.  And then I think one of the more difficult ones to cope with is not being able to eat or drink and being put on a clear liquid diet.  Something that’s not a big deal if it’s for a short time, but if you’re in a longer labor, you’re 18, 24 hours in, and you haven’t eaten, it can become quite challenging.

I’m finding that it’s okay to snack now.

Your anesthesiologists are letting you eat?

I’m not talking full meals, but it depends on the hospital.  But with some of the ACOG guidelines, it is okay to have a bite of an energy ball or something.

You are so lucky!  Our anesthesiologists will not allow food after you get the epidural at all.  It’s like popsicles, juice.

That’s the standard thing that the hospital, of course, offers, but if people bring in things – I’ve had my clients eat in front of the nurse, but again, just finger foods, snacks, and not a lot of it.  Certainly, if they’re asking for something, it’s going to be a popsicle or jello or broth. 

That’s amazing that they’re not saying anything.  Our moms are getting just hammered with being – it’s just so highly emphasized, you cannot eat.  Which I love that they’re being more open to it because the research really does show that, one, a little bit of food is good for labor for yourself, as a mother, but also that it’s not as dangerous as we once thought.  That’s amazing.

But it can be exhausting.  Back when there were more restrictions, I would talk to clients about electrolyte drinks – still do, and my students, and even some of those runner’s gummies that marathon runners will bring with them on those long runs to give a little energy without filling the stomach.  And as you mentioned, nausea or vomiting could happen, so you don’t want to have a whole lot of food.  You’re not hungry usually until after you deliver.  But as you had mentioned with those longer labors, and certainly with my clients, if they’re having an induction, oftentimes they can eat in that earlier phase.

Yeah, we’re allowed to eat until you have an epidural, and then that’s about it for us.  It’s so interesting, as I go on different podcasts and I meet doulas from all around the country, it is really interesting how the care changes based on your location.

Absolutely, yeah.  And hospital to hospital, certainly.  But there can be variations in every state.

Yeah.  How do your clients usually feel about epidurals kind of being like a packaged deal with the IV fluids?  And most – not all, but I see most of my moms with epidurals have Pitocin.  Do you feel that a lot of your moms care about that, or is that something that is like it’s okay; it’s worth it?

Again, it depends on what their goals are and what their preparation was.  At Gold Coast, we teach HypnoBirthing, and so that mind-body connection, and many of our students, their goal is at some point in labor, not all, but there are plenty of them in every class, that want an epidural at some point.  Then others are taking HypnoBirthing for an unmedicated birth.  We also have planned surgical births where they may have a fear of the surgery and want to be as relaxed as possible and use some of the breathing and mindfulness techniques.  So I don’t see those that have a plan necessarily having an issue with Pitocin because they won’t necessarily feel it as they would if they were having an unmedicated birth, and certainly the IV is part of the package.  So again, it just depends.  Is this someone who wanted an unmedicated hospital birth as homelike as possible and then needed to have other interventions?  Oftentimes, I see Pitocin comes first and then with the discomfort, some of my clients – not all – choose an epidural.  And others are totally fine with Pitocin and managing that without having any sort of pain medication.

Yeah, I see a lot of my moms – Pitocin is kind of like the moment where they switch to, okay, I was fine before, but now I just really want to get comfortable.  But I do have outliers who are totally fine with the Pitocin and make it through even the induced labors without an epidural, which I think is important because sometimes labor is mind over matter.  In some cases; it’s not always.  There’s always an element of that, and sometimes there’s additional things out of our control where we just need to meet these emerging needs.  But I really love how even your moms who are planning an epidural are working on their pain management skills and tools because it is true that even if you have an epidural, you do have to get far enough into labor to get admitted, and you do have to cope with contractions.  And so to use an epidural as a tool but not as an excuse to not get prepared and not get the groundwork – it’s really amazing that your moms are taking that point of view and putting that work in to ensure that they have a positive birth.

Yes.  And as you had mentioned earlier in conversation about how some of your clients feel that pressure in pushing – which is good and can make it more effective – and others don’t, which then can lengthen the amount of pushing – so breathwork is so important, whether you can feel your pushes or need to be directed and have the ten pounds and so on and have a lot of support on when the contraction begins.  But I have clients with epidurals that can feel the start of a contraction.  It just varies.

And I feel like for a lot of people, as they’re getting later into labor, as their baby is coming down really low, I hear a lot of moms start saying, I feel like I have to poop, and I’m like, okay, it probably is not poop – or maybe it is, but it’s also probably your baby coming really low, and that’s a good time for us to start talking about paying attention to, is that feeling there all the time, or is it coming and going?  Is it getting stronger and weaker?  Because a lot of times as you start paying attention to that feeling, it goes from being like, oh, just an abstract feeling to like, oh, actually, this feeling is adjusting and changing, and that’s what my contractions feel like now is this pressure.  And then as you’re building awareness and paying attention and you’re tuning in to your body, even with an epidural, a lot of moms can start to feel like, yes, this is when I push and no, this isn’t when I push, and this is when I’m on my break, and I think it can be very empowering to push with an epidural, even if it looks a little bit different than pushing naturally.

Right.  We’ve talked about some of the risks and statistics.  What are some of the benefits of an epidural?

The biggest one is hopefully you’re out of pain, at least significant pain!  Like we said right at the beginning, that first statistic that nine out of ten women get adequate pain relief and don’t need additional support with labor pain, and that it does lower the rating on the pain scale on average three and a half points.  I’d say for a lot of people, though, just from my observation – you know, I don’t want to disagree too much with somebody who went out and did the work to ask people and record it and publish the research – but I would say it truly is an average, meaning that some people get much more pain relief and do sleep and relax and get a break from the pain, and if you are just at the three and a half points, then it’s probably not a full, complete, out of pain, but it is out of suffering for most people.  I think pain and suffering, they can go hand in hand, but they don’t have to.  When I’m working out, I’m usually not suffering, but I push myself and have that more intense experience.  But they often do in labor go hand in hand if you haven’t done the work to separate those, right?  Anyway, three and a half is significant, but it’s not everything, so I just hope that as moms are thinking about an epidural and setting their expectations, to know it’s okay and it’s normal if you’re in some discomfort.  As long as you’re out of that place where you’re suffering, I’d say an epidural is a success.

Right.  And then again, it can be positive for someone who experienced abuse or trauma to be able to open up and relax during birth.  That certainly is something that I have witnessed.  Once the epidural is placed, it’s completely different.

Yes, and I think any time we get a choice and we have control, that control can come in different ways.  For some people, control is learning how to work through contractions and feel grounded in that.  And for other people, control is saying, that’s not for me.  I want the epidural.  And so whichever way people land on that, getting the support that is so important.

Absolutely.  And for some options as far as pain management, a narcotic is not a good option for people.  They don’t want to feel out of body.  They know they have negative reactions to certain medications.  So they’re not interested in something like Stadol or Demerol and know that unless nitrous, which isn’t offered in every hospital, is a good option for them, that they might go straight to the epidural and avoid something as far as other pain management options, like that Stadol or Demerol.

Right.  One question that I get a lot from my moms is about breastfeeding and epidurals.  I know some moms worry about whether getting an epidural affect their relationship breastfeeding.  Are you okay if we talk about that real quick?

Sure!

From my point of view, I’m a research girl.  I love being in the studies.  And the truth is that there is a lot of mixed research about epidurals and breastfeeding success.  Some research says it makes no difference, and some says that it is a little bit more common to struggle with breastfeeding after an epidural.  I think one thing that’s really important to note, though, is that pretty much every baby after they’re born will lose a little bit of weight.  It is more common for babies of mothers who had an epidural.  They have also had a significant amount of fluids throughout labor typically, and so sometimes those babies come out – like if you look at yourself and you’ve been on the epidural, and you’re like, oh, I look a little bit bloated.  My hands look a little bit bigger.  My feet look a little bit bigger.  Babies can be bloated as well like that.  Not that it’s dangerous, but it is normal for babies to lose some weight.  Typically, we say about 10% is normal and we hope that they start gaining after that.  If you have a baby that’s breastfeeding and you’re right around that 10% and you had an epidural and you had a lot of fluids, it’s probably a little bit less worrisome than if you did not have any fluids during labor, just because it would be normal, just like you are shedding that extra fluid after labor, your baby is going to shed that, too.  So I do like to give people a heads up for that because I see a lot of moms go and find their baby has lost close to that, like 7, 8, 9%.  And then it’s like panic mode with all the interventions with breastfeeding and just lots of extra work with adding extra pumping and extra check-ins and extra visits.  And while it is good to keep an eye on it, it’s also more normal if you have an epidural to be closer to that full 10% weight loss.

Thank you for sharing that!  Any final tips for our listeners, Suzzie?

I’m a mom that’s had an epidural and has not had an epidural.  Unfortunately, I did have a surgical birth after my epidural, and that was part of the reason that I decided not to do an epidural the next time.  Even with that, I would say that when I look back at my birth stories, I wanted vaginal births both times, and I didn’t get that both times.  I only got it the second time.  And yet I still don’t regret meeting my needs at the time.  I think part of the way we make decisions as we’re going through motherhood is that we come as we are, right?  And it’s okay for us to be imperfect and it’s okay for us to want tools and to use tools available, knowing that they have benefits, they have risks, and we might go through some of those moments that are the more difficult moments or we might have moments where we choose something we initially wouldn’t have.  And that’s okay.  We should be proud of ourselves in those moments for meeting our evolving needs, and we should also just recognize that we have the strength and capacity inside to meet the challenges that are ahead.  I think some of that growth is part of the labor process, no matter which way you give birth, that it can be positive; that  it can be good; that you will bond with your baby; that you have this beautiful life together, no matter which way you gave birth.  That would be my final words.  Like, make a plan that reflects your values.  Get support around it.  And then honor your journey no matter what it is.

Excellent advice, Suzzie!  Thank you!  So how can our listeners connect with you?

I’m on Instagram at She Births Bravely.  You can also check out my website.  I have a lot of in depth articles about recipes, about nutrition, about the pros and cons of different choices on my website.  So if you have more questions, just reach out.  There’s a good chance we have resources that go in depth on a lot of the questions that people ask about labor and about the experiences before, during, and after.

Lovely.  And you’re on Facebook at She Births Bravely.  And for our clients who may want to work with you in person, where do you serve geographically?

I’m in Seattle.

Excellent!  Well, thank you again, Suzzie, and I appreciate all of your information on epidurals!

Thank you so much for having me!  Much love to all of you and all of your listeners!

IMPORTANT LINKS

She Births Bravely

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

Kristin Revere and Olivia Radcliffe discuss common mind monsters that affect moms, especially moms with businesses.  Olivia is the bestselling author of “Hold My Juice Box” and the host of Marketing Like a Mother podcast.    

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas,  and I am thrilled to chat with Olivia Radcliffe today.  Olivia is an award-winning expert in authentic marketing and business strategy.  She helps mompreneurs grow a business and a life that they love, even if they only have naptime to work in.  Olivia is also a best-selling author of Hold My Juice Box and host of the Marketing Like a Mother podcast.  Her favorite title, though, is mama.  Welcome, Olivia!

Thank you so much for having me!

I am excited to talk about your book, your business, and why you focus on supporting mompreneurs, especially when it comes to the business aspect of things because we’re so torn in multiple directions, as I mentioned to you before we hit record.  It can be challenging to get in the right mindset and block out hours to get important work done.

Yeah, absolutely.  That’s probably an understatement.  It can be a lot, day in, day out.

So being a mom – was that your shift in your marketing strategy?  Because you could focus on anyone.

Yeah, it’s funny because the niche of moms with businesses – that kind of chose me.  I did not choose this niche.  It just kind of happened.  I actually just started working out, just as a general business and marketing consultant, and part of my business – I still run just a marketing agency – the more people I worked with, the more I seemed to realize that they were moms who were coming to me.  And before I knew it, it was pretty much solely moms, and I wasn’t even a mom yet at the time when I first started my business.  But I was moving away from a full time job into full time self-employment, and a lot of the strategies I was looking at and that I was working with myself were things that naturally fit very well with someone who is juggling other priorities, like raising tiny humans.  And so it just fit in very, very well.  And then I had my son, and suddenly I was practicing what I preached.  It just took everything to a whole new level.  It has been the most amazing and challenging of experiences to grow the businesses while being a mom and everything else.

Exactly.  I’m totally with you.  I love that you still focus on your core but have niched to help other moms with marketing and business.  And the fact that you’ve got so many projects shows that you’re an organized individual to be able to give advice in that area.  Having a podcast is a lot of work.  Being an author, I know as an author myself, it is so much to not only write a book, but also promote it.

And I will admit that a lot of the writing process took place on my phone on Google Doc early in the morning while my son was still curled up next to me sometimes.  Just little moments that I could get, one minute here and there, just writing.  And before I knew it, I had a book.  But yeah, it is a whole process in itself then to turn around and market this thing and continue to get the word out there.

Exactly.  So as far as the focus of our episode today, we’re going to talk about the mind monsters that can affect moms, especially moms with their own businesses.  So what are your tips on dealing with all of the things that we juggle as moms?

Yeah, I mean, that’s several episodes all put in there because there are so many mind monsters that can plague especially moms with businesses, but pretty much any entrepreneur and any mom, whether you have a business or not.  But there are things like imposter syndrome.  Worrying that you’re a bad mom because you want to work on your business.  Or worrying that you’re a bad entrepreneur because you want to focus on your kids.  Finding that balance between everything.  That guilt, that mom guilt that kind of creeps in with every single thing we do and every decision we make.  Sometimes it just feels like we’re choosing between the lesser of two evils.  And it can really bog you down.  It can feel like a huge weight on your shoulders every day to try to find that balance.  And so that’s actually what my book is about, Hold My Juice Box.  I tackle 14 of the most common of those lies that moms with businesses kind of tell themselves, that they can get stuck in, and that really hold them back.  And I chose that topic as opposed to just a straight up business and marketing book because every single person I’ve worked with, it doesn’t matter if you have the most well-crafted, perfectly positioned marketing plan out there.  If you believe even one of those lies, it will tear you down and you won’t find that success that you’re looking for.  So you have to deal with those mind monsters first and foremost.

I love the title of your book.  It’s perfect.  And I agree, there are so many ways that we can sabotage ourselves with our business and feel guilty.  I feel like the mom guilt – and also focusing on our relationship with our partner and maybe for me, being an entrepreneur, I felt like I was letting my kids down if I ended up going to an event for my business or needed to make sales calls and so on.

Exactly.  And my son – he’s four years old, so he was actually born during the pandemic.  I had him, and within a couple of weeks, we were put on lockdown.  And so the good portion of his life, he thought that human interaction occurred on Zoom and didn’t quite realize that there were other humans out there.  And just by his nature in itself, he naturally is very good at self-play.  It was just me and him for a long time, and he quickly caught on to the, mom has to work or mom’s doing a podcast thing, and he does his lessons, because I do homeschool with him, so he’s either working on his stuff or playing games.  But that does not stop me from feeling insanely guilty.  Every time I’m recording something or I’m in a client meeting and he’s just quietly playing with his cars,  happy as can be, it still is a little knife in my heart thinking, oh, I should be playing with him or something like that.  And sometimes that guilt can be one of two things.  It can be healthy guilt – which yes, there is healthy guilt.  It’s something that happens when we have compromised on our values or hurt others or something that we do need to apologize for, even apologize to ourselves, and kind of work through how to overcome that.  And then there’s toxic guilt, and I think the mom guilt is much more of a toxic guilt because it’s less about actually doing something bad or wrong.  It’s just that we kind of take it on as, we’re bad.  No matter what we do, we’re wrong.  We’re bad.  We feel this shame, this guilt.  And there is nothing we can do to overcome it unless we realize that it is toxic and it is not based on anything solid or real.

So true.  So what other gems do you share in your book?

I packed a lot into the 40,000 words.  I tried to make it as quick and easy and concise for the moms as possible because I know we don’t have a lot of time to just sit and read.  But the other big one that I see a lot of people dealing with, and I’ve dealt with a lot myself, is that kind of fear of failure.  And again, that’s something that happens whether you’re a mom who has a business or not.  It runs the gamut just with the human race in general.  That fear just overall gets kind of a bad rap.  But fear in itself is just a message to us.  It is just telling us that this thing, whatever we’re scared about, there is something in here that we care a lot about.  It is something that’s really important to us.  And so whenever you’re feeling that fear, to kind of sit down a little bit, look at that fear, and figure out what it is you care about, and is it a realistic thing?  Is it something that is kind of a primal instinct, like fear of speaking in public where we’re scared that we’re going to get ridiculed and isolated from our community and cast out of the caves and whatever primal instincts we have?  Or is it something where we can stop and say, okay, look, this isn’t the end of the world.  I care about this because I have so much to gain from this.  And then focus on what it is you have to gain instead of so much on the what it is you have to lose side of things and try to get your brain looking at, what’s the worst situation?  Okay.  I’ve handled it.  I know what I can do.  Now, what is the best case?  What is the best situation that could happen?  And then focus on that.

Certainly, looking at both ends for the problem solvers, like trying to anticipate what may go wrong, makes sense.  But also, many things can go right, and so I love that it’s balanced very evenly so any personality can benefit from it.

Yeah.  And I will admit, I am not a purely just straight up positive thinker.  I like positive thinking.  I love affirmations.  They have definitely helped me a lot.  I understand and appreciate the neuroscience behind kind of rewiring those pathways in your brain and I’ve used it a lot with my clients.  But I will throw it in there, I’m much more of a realistic thinker.  Sometimes things are going to go wrong.  Sometimes you are going to mess up, and you’re going to have the tech issues.  You’re going to get on stage and forget what you wanted to say or something.  And have some sort of idea – don’t plan for that; don’t make that the only thing you focus on – but acknowledge that it could go wrong.  What’s the worst case?  How are you going to handle it?  And see, it’s not all that bad.  Most of the time, it’s going to be okay, and you just move on from there.  And then once you’ve kind of scratched that itch in your brain, like acknowledged that yes, it could go wrong.  This is what I would do.  Then you can focus fully more on the, what if it goes right?  And then you can add in the visualizations and affirmations and kind of focus more on that positive thinking.

I love it.  So for our listeners who are not entrepreneurs, it sounds like they can still apply a lot of the strategies in your book.  Any tips for moms who may be on maternity leave and they’re getting ready to transition back to their corporate job, for example, and how to again handle being a mom and also managing the 9:00 to 5:00?

Absolutely, because a lot of these negative mind monsters, these lies we tell ourselves – a lot of them come into play also when you’re in the corporate world or you’re doing something else in your regular 9:00 to 5:00, and especially if you’re looking at leaving your newborn for the first time and going back into work.  I know that can be a really daunting thing and a lot of guilt can come up, either guilt because you’re looking forward to it or guilt because you just don’t want it to happen and you don’t want to leave your baby.  There’s just so many different emotions.  And I think kind of the same thing of stopping and looking at what you’re feeling because our emotions aren’t there just to keep things interesting.  They’re to kind of send us messages and let us know where we are kind of acting outside of our blueprint of where we think we should be acting.  And take a look at how you’re feeling, how you would like to be feeling, and then what can you change to get to that “I would like to feel…” place.  If it’s something like – you know, maybe you can look at changing your job if you’re having a really hard time leaving your baby and that’s what you don’t want to do.  If you would much rather stay home, then okay, what does this look like?  You’re not boxed in.  Or if you’re feeling guilty because you’re leaving and going back to work and you feel like, I should be wanting to stay.  I shouldn’t feel like I want to go back to work.  Looking at, okay, is that actually a real feeling that I should be feeling?  Is that healthy guilt, or is that something that’s toxic guilt and I need to go back and kind of change my blueprint a little bit?  It is okay for me to want to have an identity aside from just being mom.  And so either changing your circumstances or going back and kind of rewiring your blueprint, so to speak.

That makes complete sense. 

Does it?  Because I kind of feel like I went on a tangent there!

No, I am totally following, and it’s very helpful for our listeners who are going through so many different transitions of having a baby or that are currently pregnant and then either trying to manage their business and juggle that or go back to their day job and feeling very stressed out and anxious about all of the different roles, whether it’s a first time mom or this is baby number five, there’s still stressors.

Yeah, absolutely, and new stressors that are going to come along each and every season of life you’re in, right?  Things are going to shift and change, and just as you catch on to something, a new thing is going to come up.  But I think kind of giving yourself some grace in those situations and realizing that while you can do anything, you can’t do everything all at once, and having that understanding of what your goals are, what are your priorities, how do you want to feel, what does that dream life look like for you, and is what you’re doing kind of helping support what that looks like, or is it something that’s completely contrary to where you want to be?

You talk so much about authentic marketing, and there are many different versions of authenticity.  It could be the mom showing her messy house or just all of the things that she’s juggling in her day.  But I would like to hear from the expert on what you consider authentic marketing to be.

Yeah, well, authentic marketing – there’s lots of different definitions out there.  And ultimately, it is what is true to you.  What feels good to you and how you want to show up in your business.  And so I’ve worked with a whole bunch of women who have taken the business courses or done the coaching and they’re trying to follow someone else’s framework, and it’s just not working for them.  And they’re getting really frustrated and they’re kind of internalizing it and thinking that they’re doing something wrong or they are wrong and maybe they’re just not cut out for this whole entrepreneur thing when the reality is, it’s just the wrong framework.  You need to take bits and pieces and figure out what actually works for your life, your schedule, your strengths.  Acknowledge your weaknesses, also.  Don’t just ignore them.  There’s some things we’re naturally not good at, and that’s okay.  We can outsource those things.  But it’s really looking at what feels good to you and then kind of building up from there in your business and in your marketing plan.  For some moms, that might look like including their kids in all of their marketing.  And for others, that might look like they want to hide their kids’ faces.  And that’s okay.  Both of those are okay.  There is a strategy either way, no matter where you sit in your marketing, whether you want to show your dirty house or not.  I think something I’ve done is, people like looking at my desk for some reason because they think I’m so organized and put together, and partly I am, and also partly I have a four-year-old.  So my desk has toys, and right now I have this – he made me a smoothie, so it’s a cup of leaves and seed pods and random things that he brought in my “smoothie.”  And there is a rapport that you build with your audience when you can show that you’re human, show that kind of vulnerable side a little bit.  But that doesn’t necessarily  mean you have to do that.  You can be completely faceless on social media.  You don’t even have to have social media.  Or you can get on and do lives every day.  The whole point of authentic is that it is customizable to you and what you need.

That is such great advice because I feel like with the videos trending on social media, people feel like they have to make reels and videos constantly, but if they’re a better blogger or have other forms of communication, like having a podcast, that might work better for them for focusing their efforts on anything from a newsletter.  Blogging may be better for their time and sanity than making videos constantly while you’re driving kids to school and sports.  Having that pressure of producing video content daily can be a lot.

Yeah, absolutely.  And I will share that I am very sporadic with my posting on social media at the moment.  I always have been.  Sometimes I go through kicks where I really like posting, and I actually did say I would do a challenge for one of my clients.  I was going to post consistently, like daily or multiple times a day for a month and just see what happens and get her the results, so I might go into that, but that is purely an experiment and because I’m choosing to do it, not because I have to do it.  I have grown multiple successful global businesses without being tied to any sort of social media platform.  So it is definitely possible.  I think that’s the number one thing that people come to me for, beyond not having time: not wanting to be on social media so much.

Right, that is so true.  So tell us where we can find Hold My Juice Box.

It’s available on Amazon, paperback and Kindle, or if you go to my website, thebluebellgroup.com, there’s a link for the hardback, or it should be available in bookstores everywhere, the hardback version.

Awesome.  And then your podcast, Marking Like a Mother?  Tell us a bit about that and where to find it.

Marketing Like a Mother has been the most amazing journey.  I started it with a business bestie, which turned into a second business and was just this whole amazing experience in itself.  But it is really all about digging deep into the things that help you build a business and life you love.  My co-host has had to move on at this point and focus on other things, and so now the podcast is really focused on a lot of really amazing guest experts, but them I’m also mixing in some step by step, super easy, actionable trainings.  So if you have 20 minutes to listen to a quick training episode, you can make some progress for the week.  If that’s all you get done, then that’s great.  And it is available on platforms anywhere, so wherever you like listening to podcasts, just search for Marketing Like A Mother.

Perfect.  And I know you’re very active on social media, so where can our listeners find you?

Instagram right now.  I’m @thebluebellgroup.  Also Facebook, @thebluebellgroup, or search for my profile.  I’m more than happy to connect on there.  Although I will fully just be transparent and tell you that if you DM me, I probably will not respond for a couple weeks or so.

I get that.  That’s how I am with LinkedIn.  I know you’re on LinkedIn for the business professionals who choose to use that platform over, say, Instagram.  So they can find you on that channel, and then you’re on Substack, correct?

Yeah, that is where my podcast is mainly hosted.  If you want to subscribe to the podcast, Marketing Like A Mother, on Substack, then you can get all of the notifications in your inbox weekly with all the show notes and sometimes we send out little fun extra bonuses, as well.

And the website, as you mentioned earlier is thebluebellgroup.com?

Lots of free resources on there if you are just looking to dip your toe in, if you’re kind of curious about this entrepreneur thing or have a business and you’re looking to revamp into something that’s a little more mom-focused.  Definitely some resources on there that can help you out.

Excellent.  Any final tips for our listeners, Olivia?

There’s a phrase that I say all the time with my son and actually we just put it on a T-shirt, so now I have a T-shirt that says it: That’s One Way To Do It.  As you’re going about your journey, being a mom, being an entrepreneur, whatever other titles you have on your list, because I know there’s about a million and a half other titles.  Whatever you’re doing, just keep in mind, that’s just one way to do it.  You don’t have to do it like everybody else says.  You don’t have to stick to any sort of typical box that society or anyone else tries to put you in.  That’s just one way to do it.  You can do it your way completely.  So whatever works best for you, feels best for you, and works for your strengths and your schedule, then that’s the way to go.  That’s where you will find that absolute fulfillment and success.

Again, all going back to authenticity and your own individual strengths.  I love it, Olivia.  I appreciate your time today.

Thank you so much for having me!

IMPORTANT LINKS

The Bluebell Group

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

Kristin Revere and Kimberly Isburg discuss the myth about baby’s movement in pregnancy and her personal connection with Count the Kicks in the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.

Hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am so excited to chat with Kimberly Isburg.  Kimberly is the community manager for Healthy Birth Day, Incorporated, which is also the creator the Count the Kicks Stillbirth Prevention program.  So excited to have you here!

Hi, Kristin!  Thank you so much for having me!  I’m really excited to be here.

So you have a personal story, which I love, Kimberly, about your own pregnancy journeys and how you came to know Count the Kicks.

Yes!  I am a mom of two boys, and I am here in the state of Iowa, which is where Count the Kicks began.  I was certainly familiar with Count the Kicks from my own pregnancies, and used the Count the Kicks method to count kicks with both of my boys.  I never had any problems.  I never really noticed any changes that caused me to need to speak up.  But I loved having that tool and resource and loved getting to know how they were both unique in their movements and in their personalities, and I would say how they were in the womb kind of follows how they are in life.  One is just a little bit more laidback and chill, and one is very much a mover and a shaker and a go-getter.

I found that with my own kids.  My first was always moving and very early on, and my son was more chill.  He was also a bigger baby, so I don’t know if he just had less room.  Who knows, but he is a little bit more laid back than his sister.

Yes.  One of my favorite memories of my own kids during pregnancy – I was holding my oldest, kind of on my belly, pregnant with my second, and I distinctly remember one of the very first big kicks I felt was my youngest kicking the top side of my belly where my oldest was kind of resting on my belly.

I love that!  So for our listeners who are not yet familiar with Count the Kicks, can you give us some of the origin story on why Healthy Birth Day felt it was important to create this awareness program?  Of all the different ways you can focus on advocacy, I find this to be obviously so important, even more so now with the maternal rates that we have.

Like I said, Count the Kicks was founded here in the state of Iowa.  We were founded by five women here in central Iowa who all lost daughters to stillbirth or infant death in the early 2000s.  And they were kind of told that stillbirth is rare, that it doesn’t happen a lot, but it happened to all of them within a fairly short amount of time, and they were all kind of connected to each other by friends and by their faith communities.  They kind of connected with each other in their grief to support each other, and eventually, their conversations turned to, why is this happening?  It isn’t rare.  It happened to all of us, and it’s happening more than anyone realizes.

Stillbirth, if you don’t know, is the loss of a baby during pregnancy at 20 or greater weeks gestation.  What our founders found was that it was happening to around 20-plus thousand families every single year in the US.  That’s about one in every 177 pregnancies.  They really turned their grief into fuel, and they said, we don’t want this to happen to any other families.  We don’t want anyone else to join this club that we’re in where we’ve lost a baby.  So they created the state’s firth stillbirth registry, just to gather additional data and information about the impact of stillbirth in the state of Iowa.  Then they learned about some research out of Norway that showed a 30% reduction in stillbirth when moms are educated on getting to know their baby’s normal movement patterns in the third trimester of pregnancy.  That reduces stillbirth rate by about 30%.  They said if they can do that in Norway, we can do it here in Iowa.  That’s how Count the Kicks was created.  It’s a mom-focused educational empowering program that teaches expectant parents how to monitor their baby’s movements in the third trimester of pregnancy and helps them speak up and empowers them if they notice a chance.

Well, moms get things done, so it makes sense that they banded together!  I love your personal story to be able to – you know, as communication manager, share the message that impacted all of you so personally.

Yes, absolutely.  Really incredible that they just wanted to do something to help other families, and they knew that they could make an impact.  They started out hoping to save just one baby, and about 15 years later, we’ve heard from more than 140 different families in 36 states and 6 countries who reached out to say, hey, Count the Kicks helped my baby get here safely.

I love it so much.  And as far as your personal use of Count the Kicks, was it based on awareness, being located in Iowa and just knowing about the importance of it, or was it something your provider or a other support person told you about?  Was there a risk factor that made you want to monitor kicks?

It was definitely just the awareness here of Count the Kicks in Iowa.  We have these bright yellow educational materials with a pregnant mom on the front, and those were at my doctor’s office, at my provider’s office.  I saw them at every appointment, and they would talk to me and ask, how is your baby moving?  How are your kicks feeling?  Things like that.  It’s definitely something that’s kind of in most providers’ offices here, all of the materials, and that helps just to understand why it’s important and the benefits of kick counting.

And for our listeners in Michigan, there has been quite a bit of advocacy related to Count the Kicks and stillbirth prevention.  You even have a director in Michigan, so that’s awesome!

We do!  We launched our program there in the state of Michigan earlier this year through a partnership with the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services.  We’re really excited and grateful to partner with them and have the opportunity to get that bright yellow Count the Kicks education into doctors’ offices and midwives and doulas there in the state of Michigan, as well.

That is amazing.  And as you mentioned, it is for everyone.  You were healthy.  You weren’t high risk.  It’s not like you were getting consistent nonstress tests in your provider’s office.  So for people who aren’t high risk, this is just as beneficial because things can happen in pregnancy quickly, and I’ve supported stillbirths, unfortunately, as a doula.  It doesn’t always give a lot of signs at those regular appointments.

Yes.  The research really shows that a change in a baby’s movements can be the first or only sign that there may be an issue with the pregnancy, that your baby may be in distress.  That’s why kick counting is so important for all pregnancies, not just high risk, not just multiples.  It’s important for everyone because really, getting to know that baby’s normal movement pattern kind of gives you that information, that education, to be able to speak up if your baby’s normal ever changes.  And again, every baby and every pregnancy is different, like we talked about.  Every baby is going to move a little bit differently, and so Count the Kicks really makes it easy for you to get to know what’s normal for that baby and that pregnancy.

And whether it’s a handout or utilizing the app, again, all of that information is provided, but I would love to have you give us a rundown of how you count kicks, what would be considered movement that would count, and what would not count.

Yeah.  So Count the Kicks, counting kicks, is really recommended to start at the third trimester of pregnancy, which is 28 weeks, or 26 weeks if you are high risk or pregnant with multiples.  That is because that’s kind of the time in pregnancy when most babies get into more of a recognizable pattern of movement.  So you’re going to want to count every day, once a day, around the same time, and try to pick a time that your baby is active.  So again, around that third trimester, just pay attention to those movements, what times of day are you feeling baby move.  Is it in the morning after you eat breakfast?  Is it in the evening when you finally sit down and relax on the couch or lay down in bed?  Count around that time.  And we do have a free app that’s available in the app store, and it’s available in 20 different languages.  That makes it really easy to do your daily kick count.  When you use the app, you’re going to open it up and click on Start Counting.  Then there’s a teal footprint on the screen, and you’re going to tap it every time you feel your baby move.  It’s going to start a timer.  The types of movements you’re looking for are kicks, pokes, jabs, rolls, swishes.  Any type of intentional movement.  The only thing that doesn’t count are hiccups because hiccups are involuntary.  If you think about when you get hiccups yourself as an adult, you don’t really have much control over it.  You can’t really make them go away.  They kind of just are.  And they’re going to feel very rhythmic and kind of have that pattern, but those intentional movements are what you count.  You count until you get to ten movements, and the timer will stop on the app.  Then it’s going to ask you to rate the strength of your baby’s movements, as well.  Research also shows that the strength of movements is an important sign of your baby’s well-being.  So a 1 on strength is going to be those light fluttery movements, kind of what you might feel early on when you first start to notice your baby moving in pregnancy.  5 is going to be those really big, fierce movements.  Kicks, jabs, things that you might even be able to see on the outside of your belly.  So you rate them 1 to 5 on the strength of movements.  It gives you the ability to take any notes that you might want to take, whether that’s what you ate for lunch that day or a question you want to ask your provider.  You can take those notes and then finish your session.  And then after you do this for a few days, a week or so, you’re going to begin to see kind of a pattern or an average amount of time that it normally takes your baby to get to ten movements.

So helpful!  And how can this information be helpful for anyone who works with expecting families, like a birth doula, for example, or a childbirth educator, even?

Yes!  Again, we all have so many questions in pregnancy.  There’s just a lot of things that are happening.  And I think movements are one of those things that parents have a lot of questions about.  So we absolutely love it when doulas and childbirth educators share Count the Kicks with the clients that they are working with and teach them about how to use it and show them the app and our materials.  Anything you can do to educate them on the importance of kick counting.  It’s also a great way to encourage your clients to bond with their baby.  Most of our app users, about 77%, actually report that it helped to reduce their anxiety about the well-being of their baby.  So these are all great benefits that doulas and childbirth educators can share with expectant parents.  And again, as a doula or a childbirth educator, anyone working with expectant parents, you play an important role in helping to empower them and support them throughout their pregnancy journey.  So if they ever reach out to you and say, my baby is just not moving today or something feels off.  I just don’t feel like things are going like they normally do.  You can play an important role in encouraging them to speak up, to call their provider, to go into the hospital and get checked and make sure that baby is okay.  Most of the time, baby is just fine.  There’s nothing going on.  They’re just having an off day.  But you would always rather go in and get checked and make sure that everything is okay.

100%.  Fully agree.  And so as far as other advocacy that Healthy Birth Day is involved with, I would love to hear more about your actions, not only in Iowa, but federally.

Yes!  Count the Kicks is a program of Healthy Birth Day, Inc., which is the nonprofit organization.  And really, our goal as Healthy Birth Day is to improve birth outcomes nationwide through stillbirth prevention initiatives.  Really, taking a look just at the issue and impact of stillbirth in the US and what can be done nationwide to help improve birth outcomes.  This year, our nonprofit played a vital role in advocating for a bill in congress called the Maternal and Child Health Stillbirth Prevention Act.  That was passed by the senate and by the house and then signed by President Biden in July of this year.  It is huge.  It’s incredible.

What this bill does is, in Title V, there is language about maternal and child health issues that states should address and focus on prevention efforts.  Things like SIDS, things like smoking cessation during pregnancy, maternal mortality and morbidity.  Lots of important things.  But one thing that was never included in Title V in the language was stillbirth or stillbirth prevention.

Right.  It was more on the maternal health, you’re correct.

Yeah.  Stillbirth was left out, probably because at the time they didn’t think stillbirth was something that could be prevented.  But we know now that it can, and the research shows that at least one in four stillbirths can be prevented through increased education about kick counting in pregnancy and other initiatives.  So now Title V includes the words stillbirth and stillbirth prevention, and it’s really a signal to states and to state health departments that they can and they should invest those Title V grant dollars to focus on stillbirth prevention.

That’s so excellent.  How can partners play an active role in stillbirth prevention?

There is so much awareness that needs to be raised about stillbirth.  It’s an issue that we just don’t talk a lot about, yet it’s happening more often than most of us realize.  Partners can help to get information out there.  OF course, we’re also a nonprofit organization, and so we’re always looking for additional funding partners who want to invest in our program and in our work and who really believe in the cause of stillbirth prevention and what can be done to prevent it.  So that’s another way that people can get involved and really help increase awareness about stillbirth and help with kick counting.  That’s our ultimate goal, to help make kick counting a common practice for all expectant parents in the third trimester of pregnancy.

I love it so much.  Very important work.  So any final tips for our listeners?

I think just that we hear a lot of myths about movement in pregnancy and so I just would love to talk about a few of those.  Like I mentioned, we sometimes hear that kick counting might increase anxiety and that’s a reason that people don’t want to talk to pregnant women about it, but our app users actually report that it helps to decrease their anxiety about the well-being of their baby.  It’s also a great opportunity to bond with your baby, to involve your partner or your baby’s older siblings.  Kick counting with Count the Kicks is really easy.  Anybody can do it.  It’s a great way for your whole family to bond.

We also hear that babies run out of room at the end of pregnancy.  That is not true.  Babies do not run out of room.  They should not stop moving.  The types of movements that you might feel may change.  More jabs, fewer big rolls.  But your baby should continue moving up to and during labor and kind of in the same pattern until they arrive.

Excellent information!  So you’ve got two websites.  Would you share those with our listeners?

Sure.  Our nonprofit organization is Healthy Birth Day.  And that’s really focused on stillbirth, the impact of stillbirth in the US.  You can learn more about our advocacy efforts and the Maternal and Child Health Stillbirth Prevention Act.  And then Count the Kicks is the place to go for all things kick counting in pregnancy and education about how to use Count the Kicks, as well as a place to order our education materials.  Those are free in the state of Michigan and also in about 30 other states in the US.

Amazing!  And hopefully soon it will be all 50!

Yes, that is our goal.  We want to get Count the Kicks into all 50 states and see the same success across the US as we’ve seen in Iowa, which we believe would save about 6,000 babies every single year.

That’s a huge difference.  You are also very active on social media?

Yes.  Healthy Birth Day and Count the Kicks are both on Facebook, Instagram, and X.  We have Count the Kicks on TikTok.  Healthy Birth Day is on LinkedIn if you want to connect with us there.  Then we do have a YouTube channel for both Count the Kicks and Healthy Birth Day.

Amazing.  Thank you so much, Kimberly, and again, I appreciate the work you’re doing so much.

Thank you so much, Kristin.  We’re so grateful for the opportunity to share more about Count the Kicks.

It is definitely needed, and I’m excited to have your presence in Michigan.

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Kristin Revere and Sara Baxter discuss the importance of investing in sustainable products and companies in the latest episode of Ask the Doulas podcast. 

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Sara Baxter.  Sara is the CEO and co-founder of Paperclip.  She’s also a mom of three who juggles business meetings with naptimes, proving that it’s possible to run a thriving company while occasionally using a toddler as a footrest.  As the founder of Paperclip, a baby and child product brand, Sara’s not just running her own business but is also charting a course towards a more sustainable future, one recycled diaper bag at a time.  She also has a passion for homebirths, having three of her own, and had an incredible birthing team.

I am thrilled to chat with you today, Sara!  Welcome!

Yes!  Thank you so much for having me, Kristin!

I am excited to talk about sustainability and why it’s important to choose items that you purchase or register for with sustainability in mind.  Let’s get started!

Yeah!  I mean, I think we can all agree as parents, our kids are the most important thing in our lives.  And I really do believe we should all be making a bigger effort to create a better future for our kids and their kids.  And it sound sometimes so overwhelming, because everything says organic now.  Sustainable products are more expensive, and it does seem like I’m just going to keep doing the things that I’m doing because it works and it’s not expensive.  But I think there are so many little, small changes that we can make every day to make sure that we are being mindful about our purchases and the future of our planet.  There are a couple of quick, little changes that you can make in your daily life.

Some of those are, first and foremost, really getting behind brands that are purpose driven.  At Paperclip, we don’t just create products to make money.  We create products that really have a bigger purpose and a positive impact on our planet.  As you mentioned in your intro, each of our diaper bags are actually made using 45 recycled water bottles.  Those are pulled from our oceans and rivers.

I love your story.  It’s so important to repurpose, and the fact that you are utilizing waste, as you mentioned, with our water being so important.  I live in a Great Lake state, so water is everything to us in Michigan.

Absolutely.  And the sad truth is that plastics are probably never going to go away.

No.

But at least we can do our part by reducing that in some way by repurposing that waste into something that’s really good.

Exactly.  My doula agency is a certified B-Corp, so sustainability is important to us, and giving back and supporting women-owned and local businesses.  I love everything that you’re doing!  And it’s so challenging with inflation for a business like your own to have the sustainable mindset at the forefront because it’s much more expensive.

It is, and it’s so sad that it is that way.  It’s hard because like I said, it feels like we’re just stuck.  We can’t eat organic because it’s twice the price.  We can’t buy products that are more sustainable because they are more expensive.  It feels like we’re up against these big corporations that really have control over all of these decisions, and it shouldn’t be that way.  But I do feel like, slowly but surely, we will get to a place where we’re all speaking up and we’re making big changes in who we’re supporting.

Have you been following the issues that are going on in the food industry right now, as well?

There are so many.  Which issues are you referring to?

The one with Kellogg.  That’s been in the media a lot lately, and it’s a good example of what I’m talking about.  Buying an organic cereal without dyes in it is more expensive; why?  But if we start to get behind brands that actually do care and stop supporting the brands that don’t, slowly but surely, we will make a difference.

Absolutely.  And I find when shopping for cereal for my kids that the sugar-based cereals are the ones that are less expensive versus the healthier – as you mentioned, like the organic options.  But my children and their health is the most important, so I spend more.  When it comes to gifting baby registry items to friends or my own consumer habits, I like to focus on companies that are mission-driven and sustainable items, items that will last, versus the throwaway culture that we live in right now.  Certainly, spending more on quality items and companies like your own that are focused on making the world a better place makes perfect sense to me.

Definitely.  And like I said before, I think all of this can be done in really small ways that are more attainable.  Obviously, supporting the brands that are purpose driven, that’s number one.  Think of other little small things to help our environment.  For example, eliminating single use plastics.  Our feeding products – we sell silicone feeding products.  Not only is that product itself sustainable, just because it basically has lifetime usage.  It doesn’t break down; it’s not tossed away.  It’s a great alternative for paper plates.  But also, all of our products come packaged in a reusable Ziplock bag.  So it’s a really amazing, premium bag that you just wash out after every use.  I don’t even own Ziplock bags anymore.  I use these for everything.

And there’s this amazing company called The World Counts.  It has some really insane statistics about plastic bags.  As of this year, we’ve already products four trillion plastic bags.  And then an estimated 300 million of those just end up in the Atlantic Ocean alone.  It’s crazy.

Devastating.

Yeah, it’s crazy.  But we don’t realize it because it’s just been a part of our daily lives for so long that we just use them and throw them away, and it’s like, okay, that’s fine.  We just don’t think about it.  But again, I think that’s a pretty easy switch you can make.  And obviously, when you buy our products, you get one for free, so it’s kind of nice.  But there’s also tons of brands out there that just sell those on their own.

Yes.  I think with the pandemic, with using the tote bags and your own recycled bags, some of that ended in grocery stores, at least in my area, and it was a bit of going back to the plastic bags temporarily, or paper bags, and now things have returned to some normalcy there, but habits take a while to break.  So the convenience of just getting a plastic bag at the store, but as you mentioned, there’s so much damage to the environment and to our waterways with plastic usage.

Yeah, for sure.  I’ve loved seeing all of the initiatives we’ve made, though, in terms of water.  You know, at the airports now, there’s refill stations, and at schools, there’s refill stations.  I think that’s such a big deal.  I love seeing the little steps that we are making.

Exactly.  And even at parks, you can refill your water bottles, so you don’t have to bring along the plastic bottles.  So let’s talk a bit about registries and outside of your diaper bags, what tips do you have for our audience on having a sustainable baby registry?

I would say, do your research.  Creating a baby registry is so overwhelming because there’s a million products out there that all look the same.  And you’re relying on just your gut instinct or the reviews or whatever to make that decision to add that to your registry, but take the time.  Really look into the brands that are doing a little bit more.  Go to their website directly.  Don’t just rely on the platform that you’re using to build your registry to learn about that brand.  And there’s so many small brands out there.  Ours is one of them.  We’re small but growing.  But really, we’re purpose-driven and we really care about the customer.  When you’re able to check out the website and learn a little bit more about that company, it makes you feel so much better about the products that you’re choosing.

Absolutely.  And as far as other items, are you a fan of a particular registry site?  I know you can add any website like your own to a traditional registry, and people can even add doulas to their baby registries.

That’s so amazing.  I wish that was around when I was having my babies.

Same!

I have used a lot of them.  Baby List has a huge, huge following.

Yes, they do.

And they’re unique in the way that they obviously have brands that they carry directly but also you have the ability to add any brand that’s out there into that registry, whereas an Amazon registry, that’s obviously very, very convenient, but that wouldn’t be my first choice, the reason being that anybody can sell on Amazon these days.  For example, if you’re looking for a diaper bag, it’s maybe going to be something that wasn’t sustainably sourced or wasn’t manufactured properly.  You don’t really get as much information about that brand through a lot of these sellers on Amazon, so Baby List would be my first choice.  What about you?

I am a fan of Baby List as well, and I agree that some of the convenience of a site like, say, Amazon or Target would be appealing to certain families, but I really talk to my birth and postpartum clients about really looking at their own individual values and creating a customized list from a site like Baby List.  If sustainability is their number one focus, then choosing small businesses with a sustainable focus that are making an impact and, again, registering for fewer items, but items that are going to get utilized versus sitting around gathering dust.  You don’t need all the onesies.  You don’t need ten different bottles.  I mean, just looking at the important needs first, and don’t worry about things that you’ll need when your child is two years old or even one, because it’s going to sit around for so long. 

For sure.  Definitely.   I think another suggestion for when you create your registry is to not always be scared of the price.  We have this weird way of justifying spending $250 on a meal that we get once but we can’t always see that value in a product that literally lasts us years.  And I’m guilty of it, too.  Our diaper bag, our best-selling diaper bag, is $199, and for some people, that feels too expensive, but when you think about it, this bag is lasting you four plus years, or as long as you are changing your baby or using it for your next child.  When it all comes down to it, there’s so much value in that price.  Just always remember that and that you’re not just paying for that product for one time.  There is value in it.  That would be another tip.

Absolutely.  It’s something you use every day, and if it’s one that’s durable, you can use it for each child. 

So what are your thoughts on ways that our listeners can connect with sustainable businesses like your own?  Do you have any favorite directories or ways to search and really vet out the businesses?

Yeah, I think you were just saying that your doula business is also B-Corp certified?

Yes.

That’s a great resource.  We’re in the process of applying for that, as well.  Certifications; check for what types of awards they’ve won.  Always look at the mission statement.  I think that tells you a lot about who they are as a brand.  I know for us right now on our website, one of our main pages on our navigation is Our Eco Efforts.  And usually, when you go to a site, if they are a sustainable-forward business, they’re going to have that information readily available for you to review.  It’s a quick search.  If it’s on their main header, for me at least, I know that this brand actually is doing a lot to make an impact on the planet.  They have eco efforts and they’re able to explain what those are with a lot of information.  So again, that goes back to doing your research.

Right.  So if our listeners could only purchase one item from Paperclip, where would you direct them?

Oh, gosh, that’s a hard one.  Our diaper bags have been with us as long as we’ve been a business, and they’re tried and true.  There’s really nothing else like it out there.  Not only are they made with recycled water bottles, but they’re premium bags.  They’re very durable.  They also have a patented integrated changing station.  You literally just unzip the front of the bag.  It rolls out, and you can change your baby anywhere, anytime.  You have that privacy and that convenience.  So that’s our number one selling product and has been for as long as we’ve been in business.  We’re actually rolling out a high chair in a few months here, too.

I will be on the lookout! 

Yes, please!  We should hopefully have them here by January.

Okay, soon!

Yes, it’s very exciting.

Absolutely.  So Sara, as you mentioned earlier with the petition for Kellogg, how can we as consumers expect more from the big businesses that tend to have a lot more control over what we see in the stores?  Again, using that Kellog example, how can change be made to become more sustainable universally versus just focusing on companies like B-Corps and your own company that are very mission-driven?

I think it just starts with – honestly, a boycott is a strong word, but just choosing not to support companies like that.  I mean, why would we, when they are truly acknowledging the fact that they are putting ingredients in our products that are very, very harmful for us?  And for me, I’m not a huge activist where I’m out there picketing.  I love the people who do have the courage to do that.  But for me, I’m just going to stop supporting you.  And then obviously spreading that awareness I think is always important too.  Sharing on social media or just having open conversations like you and I are having right now.

Right, so signing petitions, using your dollar to make change in that way by not purchasing those items.  I think certainly understanding ingredients and the makeup of not only our food but the goods that we’re buying, as you mentioned with plastics, that aren’t recycled, and how we can make more impact with our buying power.

Absolutely.  Yes.  I mean, it seems like such a hurdle.  It’s one of those things where you’re just like, how are we ever going to be able to be in a place where we are fully eco-friendly and we are having foods that are good for us?  It feels really unattainable.  But I really do believe that through education, conversation, and really speaking your voice, I think there can be change.

Yes.  And as moms, we do have to think of the planet that we’re leaving behind for our grandkids and our own kids and anything that we can do to make change will certainly impact their lives.

Absolutely.  Just think about what this planet was like a hundred years ago.  It’s crazy.  You can’t even really fathom what it will be like in another hundred years.  You can’t even imagine it.

Exactly.  I’m with you.  So what are your top tips for our listeners who are looking at making some changes in their buying habits?

Again, I’ll summarize a little bit, but support the brands that are purpose-driven.  There are so many out there.  You just have to be willing to seek them out.  I think making small changes like with disposable plastic bags; maybe opting for those reusable Ziplock bags instead of plastics.  Another one that I do at home that is a small difference – I don’t use paper towels.  Even though those are made out of paper, it’s still extra waste.  So I actually just will buy a pack of those white cleaning rags and instead of using a paper towel to clean off my counters or whatever, I’ll just spray it down and wipe it with the rags and then just throw them in the wash.  Maybe I have paper towels for backup for food or whatever it may be, but I probably go through one roll every six months.

Nice.  Great tip!

Yeah, I mean, it’s just those small things that you can do each day to make a little bit of a difference.  We don’t have to go out there and buy electric cars.  That’s not an attainable goal for a lot of people.  Starting small and making small changes.

Yes, it all adds up, that’s for sure, Sara.  How can our listeners connect with you?  I know you’re on social media.  You’ve got an amazing website.

Yes, if you want to connect with me personally, I’m always open to that.  My Instagram is @sarabaxter.  And then you can also check out Paperclip on Instagram @paperclip_life.  And then our website is papercliplife.com.

Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom and the work you’re doing!  Your company is incredible, Sara.

Thank you so much, and it’s been a privilege to be able to chat with you today!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Paperclip

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported