October 2024

Kristin Revere and Meagan Heaton discuss VBAC preparation for families and tips for doulas supporting VBACs in this informative episode of Ask the Doulas.  Meagan is the CEO of VBAC Link. 

Hello, hello.  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with my new friend Meagan Heaton.  Our topic today is all about VBACs.  Meagan is the VBAC Link owner and founder.  She’s a doula, and she’s also a VBAC mom after two Cesareans.  Very impressive!  Welcome to the show!  I would love to hear more about your personal story, Meagan!

Thank you so, so much!  It is such an honor to be here with you and be talking with your audience and sharing my story.  I do love my story.  I really hold it near and dear to my heart because I truly believe that my stories are what led me here today.  I think that’s a lot of the times how birth doulas get into birth work, too, just based off of their own experience.

As you kind of mentioned, I did.  I had two C-sections, and with my first C-section, I was young.  I was very uneducated.  Very, very uneducated.  I actually just downloaded an app, and that’s what told me what to expect.

That’s really typical, Meagan.

I was just like, this will tell me!  And it told me what size my baby was, and it told me what pregnancy symptom I might be experiencing that week.  That was really about it.  It just didn’t tell me much, and I was just kind of okay with that.  And so when my water broke spontaneously at 39 weeks, I did what a lot of people do or are told to do or believe is what we should do because we see it on movies and on Friends and other TV shows.  When your water breaks, you run right to the hospital because you’re having a baby, right?

That’s what media tells us, for sure.

It really is.  And honestly, it’s even what my doctor said.  Like, oh, if your water breaks, you come right in.  And I didn’t know anything different.  So I did.  I went in, and I got there and they were like, well, you’re not really dilated.  Let’s just start Pitocin.  And it’s kind of weird to think back and think, oh, I was induced, because that’s now how I was seeing it then.  I didn’t realize, oh, my water broke.  I go in and they start Pitocin.  That’s an induction.  They were inducing my labor that wasn’t quite happening yet.  And I was like, okay, sure.  So I started Pitocin, and 12 hours later, I had made it to 3 centimeter, which to me, I was really excited about.  That seemed great.  Unfortunately, to my provider, it wasn’t good enough.  They said no, this isn’t going to happen.  Your labor is not going.  Your body doesn’t know how to do it.  You’re going to have to have a C-section.  So I was wheeled down to a C-section.  I remember laying there and hearing them talk about the weather.  My baby was born November 4^th, and it was the first big snowstorm of the year.  One of the doctors had just gotten back from Hawaii, and they were talking about how depressing it was to be here in the snow again and not on the beach.

And this is your moment!

This is my moment!  This is the time that I feel like I should be the one being talked to and about my baby and so excited, and it just was so disconnected.  And my baby was born, and I of course was excited, but I also had this weird feeling of, why am I crying?  Why don’t I feel more?  I mean, if I’m being honest, it kind of sucked.  It really sucked.  It wasn’t what I had hoped for or, I guess, what I had imagined.  I don’t even know why I imagined anything, because I didn’t know a lot, right?  I wasn’t even educated.  But it didn’t feel the way like I felt like I should be feeling.

Then I decided to learn more about my options.  My doctor didn’t actually really tell me much about VBAC when I got pregnant, but I had kind of learned about it, and people kept saying, VBAC!  You can VBAC!  And I’m like, what in the heck is VBAC?  So I would search VBACK.  I just didn’t even know anything about it.  I did soon find out that VBAC is vaginal birth after Cesarean.  And I was like, wait, this is a thing?  I can do this!  So I said to my doctor, hey, do you support VBAC?  And he said yeah.  I was like, great.  Sounds good!  So the plan was to VBAC.  I did start learning more about what happens in birth, and I definitely learned from my first birth that maybe the app that I got was not the only thing to go off of as far as education goes.  I found myself at 38 weeks this time.  My husband was out of town, and my water broke again.  Oh, my goodness!  I was feeling a little stressed because he’s out of town, so we got him in town, and my mom was here.  He and my mom were like, you need to go.  And I’m like, I don’t.  I’m barely contracting.  Literally, barely contracting.  Maybe every 25 minutes, maybe 20.  And only a 40-second long cramp.

No need to rush in, yeah.

No need to rush in, and I had learned at this point that I didn’t need to run to the doctor or to the hospital.  Even though I knew that, my mom and my husband – I love them.  Don’t get me wrong, I love them.  But they did not know that.  And I really wanted to hire a doula with this pregnancy, but we financially were not in a good space, and my husband really didn’t understand and wasn’t super on board, and I didn’t feel like fighting him hard enough.  I wish I would have.  But I didn’t have a doula, either.  So I kind of felt pressured, and we went to the hospital.  He was exhausted.  He passed out.  If you can imagine his rush of, oh, my gosh, my wife’s water broke.  I’m in Texas!  I have to get home; my wife is going to have a baby!  And I think he just crashed.  It was so much, and by the time he got there, he was exhausted.  So he fell asleep, and I’m just sitting here, twiddling my thumbs, barely contracting.  This nurse comes in and was so friendly and warm.  We were chatting, and she’s like, all right, you know, not much is happening.  But that’s okay, your body can do this.  Let’s get you a peanut ball.  Let’s get you on the birth ball.  Let’s move!

Amazing!  Doula-like!

So much doula-like!  As we were chatting – guess what?  She was a doula!

Oh, that’s why!  Okay!

Yes, she was a doula, and I was like, oh, this is amazing!  For me, I was like, this is a blessing.  I got my doula after all!  But you know what happens; at 6:00, 7:00, depending on the hospital, they leave.  They’re gone.  She left.  And when my new nurse came in, it wasn’t the warm energy that she had brought.  And it was like, well, we can’t do anything for you.  We can’t give you Pitocin.  We can’t do anything for you.  You’re only a 1.  We can’t do anything, so your doctors are going to come talk to you.  So when he came in, it was very much, we’re going to go have a C-section.

It was hard.  It was really hard.  It was not what I wanted.  My husband wasn’t super on board with VBAC, just because my doctor was saying C-section, at that point.  We walked down, and I had a second C-section.  It was undesired completely, but it was such a healing experience.  And I think sometimes when people  hear that, they’re like, wait, what?  But you didn’t want that!  How is that healing at all?  But it really was.  My husband reminded my provider, hey, she wanted to watch it in a mirror.  That was something I really wanted.  And I had told him that, and it was really kind of fun and special, because I was like, oh, he was listening!  He was listening along the way, even though I didn’t think he was.  He was.  So yeah, I watched my baby be born through this mirror.  It’s definitely different, but it was amazing.  And the anesthesiologist was playing music, and they put my baby on my chest.  It was the best thing ever.  You know those belly bands that they kind of hold the monitors on with?  They put that on like a tube top and stuffed my baby in that so she was secure.  So for anyone listening, if you have a C-section, planned or not, that is something that really helped me.  They stuck her in, and it was amazing.  So amazing.

I went in the postpartum unit, and here I am, Googling how to become a doula.  I became a doula quickly after that.  I definitely knew in the future, I was going to VBAC.  And that’s what I did; I had a VBAC!  I went into labor spontaneously again.  My water broke.  This time I had multiple doulas.  At this point, I was a doula and had so much support.  I had switched providers during my pregnancy from a different provider to another provider that would truly support my VBAC and have more options.  I had the most joyous experience when my midwife said, Meagan, reach down and grab your baby!  I reached down, and I pulled him out.  I had him on my chest.  And it was really long; a 42-hour long labor.  I was just so exhausted, but so high on life and birth.  I just can’t explain this joy.  And I remember screaming, you guys, I did it!  This is possible!  My pelvis isn’t too small!  My body really can do this!  All these things that I was told were false, were absolutely false.  Soon after that is when the VBAC Link was born with a friend.  We started it in 2018, and we just were like, we need to help people know more about their options for birth.  Is it possible?  Is VBAC really possible?  Yeah, guys, it is.  It’s totally possible.  I just have to tell you that!  It is so possible!

And I love that you explained all of your different stories, Meagan, with the Cesarean that went against all of your plans to the second surgical birth where you were able to experience more of labor, move, follow more of your birth preferences, and then have a family-centered Cesarean that gave you some healing from the first experience.  And then the journey to become a doula and create this program from scratch that you needed to exist and to then be able to make even more impact by training doulas to support families and giving families more education.

Yeah, exactly!  During my VBAC journey, there wasn’t a lot of information, and the information that was out there was kind of scattered all around.  I still think that today.  You could find how positive VBAC is and how little risk it is, to how scary it is and how you shouldn’t do it.  But there wasn’t a lot of information in one place.  We had ICAN.  We had VBAC Facts, things like that.  And it was so great, but then there was a lot of static out there.  So we wanted to create a space where people could come, both parents and birth workers, and really dive deep into the nitty gritty of VBAC and what does it look like, what are some tips for people to do.  Because I wanted to know what I could do to increase my chances of a VBAC.  And then to have this birth worker network where people can find a doula all over the world, literally.  We have doulas in Kuwait, even, who have a deeper knowledge of VBAC.  I mean, I’m just here in Utah.  I can’t change the VBAC world alone.  Birth workers have such an amazing impact on birth and people’s overall outcomes.  That’s why we wanted to broaden it past parents and reach doulas.

Yes, and I agree that back when I started as a doula, ICAN was about it.  Some local support groups.  But it was challenging for my clients to be able to, one, find the right provider.  You mentioned switching providers later in pregnancy and finding someone who wasn’t just tolerant of VBAC birth but also more supportive and was 100% on board because providers will sometimes say, oh, yeah, I’m all for a VBAC, but really understanding and is passionate about it and who has a track record that is pro-VBAC.

Yes!  I love that you mentioned that because that is honestly one of the number one tips, if not the number one tip, that I give parents who are wanting to VBAC.  Find a truly supportive, truly loving provider.  Someone who is up to date, that is not going to put all the restrictions on you, because even my first provider, right?  Sure, yeah, we support VBAC.  But in the end, he wasn’t even close to supporting VBAC.  In fact, I was bullied into a repeat Cesarean.  And not even just VBAC parents; I think even first time parents, really, a big goal is finding a supportive provider that aligns with you and your desires and who’s up to date with evidence based care.  That’s one of the number one tips.

And then, of course, education.  Education is so important.  I want to say I learned the hard way, right?  I want to kick myself because I should have learned!  But then again, I look back and say, I didn’t learn, and that’s why I’m here today.  So I go back and forth.  But learn as much as you can.  That is why we have the VBAC Link course, and we have a 20% off discount for any parents looking for deeper education in VBAC, and they can use BIRTH20 at checkout.  But really diving into the education.  Find a great provider.  Hire a doula!  Guys, if you can hire a doula, it’s so good.  There’s actual evidence on it.  I’m sure you’re aware of the evidence on doulas.

Oh, yes, but our listeners may not be.  There is so much benefit, especially with VBAC families, to hiring not only a doula but also a doula who is VBAC certified through your group as well as others.  I think VBAC Link has an exceptional certification program.  The doulas on my team that are certified through you are highly in demand by clients.  It’s not just the experience that our families are looking for, but they want the certification.  It’s not just, oh, I’ve attended five VBACs.  They want the education behind it and the full understanding from doulas now.

Yeah, and a lot of our doulas, I know, bring the actual book.  We have an actual book, over 100 pages.  They bring those to the births.  If there are providers coming in saying a statistic or something like that, they can kind of fact check a little bit and have that.  I just think it’s so great.  And of course, I believe I was a good doula not certified in VBAC.  I don’t think I was less.  But I definitely have that deeper, richer knowledge and knowing like, oh, they just said that.  I’ve learned that actually is not quite true.  Or there’s actually an alternative to that.  Let’s talk about that and really kind of help open conversation within the client and the provider, too.

Exactly, and having that community, whether it’s parent focused or the doulas, on the updated evidence based information, what the stats are, and staying current even after the certification.  I think the benefit to some of the communities you created is key and just an extra bonus from going through the actual program.

Yeah, and I love that you mentioned along the way – like, evidence does change.  Things are being studied, and there are certain things that, unfortunately, aren’t continued to be studied.  I mean, there’s a study from 2005, and that’s the last best study we can find.  But as things are evolving and updating, we’re updating that course and our doulas and parents.  Even if you’ve had one birth and then four years later, you have another birth, you might want to tune in to that course.  They have lifetime access to that course so they can see if there’s been updates to the course and things like that and studies that are provided in there.  We always want to make sure that you are up to date on the best evidence based care so you can know and you can help guide your clients.  Or if you’re a mom, you can feel prepared and educated.

I love it.  So I know we’ve talked a bit about the parent perspective and some of the benefits that doulas would have in going through VBAC certification, but I would love to hear your thoughts on how a VBAC parent would be different from a parent who may be a first time family or a couple that has had multiple vaginal births.

Yeah.  VBAC should not be different, right?  It should just be, someone wanting to go in and have their baby just like anybody else.  But it is different.  The fact of the matter is that it is different.  And as a doula, if I have a VBAC client, I expect and know that they may need more from me than some other first time parents or someone who’s had four vaginal births before.  And it’s not just because – I’ll use myself as an example.  I had never had a vaginal birth, so I was essentially just a first-time mom.  There was a lot more in my past that I needed to work through, process, and understand.  And I find that to be true with a lot of VBAC clients where they have experiences.  And sometimes it might not even be associated or recognized as trauma, mentally.  But then physically, our bodies respond as trauma, and if we don’t work through that, that can impact our future, right?  It can impact the way we dilate or the way our labor starts or the way our mindset is when we walk into the birthing space, wherever that may be.  I think that as doulas and birth workers, we need to expect that our VBAC clients are a little more tender, and I use tender as in just knowing that they’ve got some more.  They’ve got some more to work through.  I was also told that my pelvis was too small, so not only did I have experience that I needed to work through, I had a lot that I had to mentally work through to know that my body was capable.  I had to re-find the belief and the faith in my body’s ability to give birth.  That sucked that I had to do that.  But I was so grateful for my birth doulas and for my education in VBAC to be able to do that.  Not only is it different to prepare them for birth, but navigating finding support for VBAC parents – and this is nationwide – can sometimes be very difficult.  And if I’m going to be super honest with you, it really ticks me off.  It makes me so mad that someone has to fight so hard to find that support.  It should not be that hard.  It shouldn’t.   But it tends to be.  And that, I feel like, is a big part of what I do for my doula clients is knowing and being connected to my birthing community and all the hospitals and the birthing centers and the homebirth midwives and knowing who supports VBAC and who is that truly supportive provider, not just that tolerant, okay, sure, I’ll let you try type of provider.  Yeah, I think being a birth worker, we have this space where we really can identify those people, those providers, and help guide our client to the right provider.  And let me tell you – I’m going to be honest – sometimes, we’ll get a VBAC client, and they are with a provider that we know is not supportive.  And we know that we might have to navigate some of the hardships that a provider may throw at someone.  But if someone is asking and they want to know, hey, I’m really not feeling the support, or hey, this was said to me today; is there evidence on this?  Then we’re able to do that and spend time with them.  And sometimes labor can be longer with VBAC, so we have to know that, as birth workers, VBAC labors can be long.  I mean, mine was 42 hours long.  With my first birth, it was 12 hours long when he called it.  The second one, it was 18 hours total.  I was not there for very long because, again, I tried to wait it out and was waiting for my husband.  But my body in particular just takes time.  And a lot of VBAC moms do, just like first time moms.  I mean, my body hadn’t done it before, so you have to kind of expect that sometimes labor can take a little longer.

And I’ve attended some VBAC births that are very quick, even quicker than my vaginal birthing clients.  It was amazing how quick some of those ended up being, but then as you mentioned, some can be longer.  As a doula, there’s no formula.  Every body and baby are different. 

Yeah, and I think as doulas, it’s really important, too, to kind of know a little bit more, too, on pelvic dynamics and understanding positions of babies because we know that birth workers can help so much with that, as well.  So to your point, we had a VBAC mom who was kind of having a very fast labor and then it kind of stalled for an hour, and it was just a positional thing.  And then within an hour later, she had her baby.  So her whole VBAC was, like, six and a half hours.  Wild.  But yeah, I think the biggest thing for birth workers is know that VBAC clients might need some extra love and guidance and education.

So true.  And as you mentioned, the mental aspect of it.  It’s important for anyone who’s supporting VBAC families that there is that tenderness and that emotional support.  There can be some blockages that could have happened from the past birth or births that could be carried and could stall labor.  I feel like it’s so important to deal with some of that.  We teach HypnoBirthing at Gold Coast Doulas, and that mental aspect of it has really been helpful for our VBAC families to do some of the fear releases and process things and really do the work in pregnancy, as you had mentioned you did with your last two pregnancies where you did so much to prepare and really wanted to ensure that birth didn’t happen to you, that you were an active participant and had the education and you could advocate for yourself, even before you became a doula.

Yes, exactly!  If there’s anything I wish for anyone during their birth experience, whatever you desire or how it goes: be an active participant, just like you said.  Don’t let birth just happen to you, and I think that’s really hard sometimes because we don’t feel like we have a voice, or we don’t know we can say something else, say no, or maybe later, or I don’t know these things.  I think that’s really helpful where doulas come in so helpfully with that because we can kind of help you find your voice and kind of help you know your options and again facilitate that conversation versus just being told what you’re going to do or what someone is going to do to you.

Exactly.  Any final tips for our listeners, Meagan?

Oh, man, yeah.  I just think, get your birth team.  Get your education.  And birth team goes even into chiropractic care and yourself.  Remember that you are an active participant on your own birth team.  Sometimes I feel like clients can hire a doula thinking that the doulas are going to do it all, but if you don’t have the education yourself, that’s not good either.  We want to have a whole team full of education.  So educate yourself and make sure that you are prepared.  Find that provider.  Check into chiropractic care.  Whatever it may be.  Hire that doula.  And really just create your space to be positive and know that it’s okay if something negative is coming in, that it’s okay to just say no, thank you, I’m going to excuse that.  My mom was not a very positive person in my labor, and that was really hard for me because I wanted her to be there, but I had to be like, Mom, not now.  I had to kind of exit her from my space that was safe.  And I think that’s important to know, that it’s okay to do that.  You are worth so much.  You deserve so much.  And you can have a better birth experience, and that’s our goal at the VBAC link is to have a better birth experience no matter what that may be or what you may choose.  But definitely get the education.

I love it!  Thank you!  So as you mentioned, the VBAC Link – there are lots of different sites within the website, but what is your domain name, and how can we connect with you on social media and all of the different Facebook communities you have?

Yes!  Okay, so you can find us at www.thevbaclink.com.  And on there, you can find our blog.  We post blogs all the time.  We have so many blogs full of incredible information, studies, suggestions, all of those things.  Of course, we have our podcast.  You can find our podcast anywhere that you listen to podcasts.  It’s The VBAC Link, and we share weekly stories of people all over the world sharing their experience and their journeys.  We also have providers and doulas coming on and sharing tips and things like that.  We have our resource page.  We have our doula directory, so if you’re looking for a doula who is VBAC certified, go over there.  It’s www.thevbaclink.com/findadoula.  Type in your ZIP code; you never know, there may be a doula in your area who you can interview.  Then we have our course for VBAC, for parents and birth workers.  Again, we have a 20% off discount code for any of your audience members, both birth workers and parents, and you can check it out using the code BIRTH20 for 20% off the course.

On social media, just The VBAC Link.  You can find us anywhere.  YouTube, Instagram, Pinterest even.  TikTok.  Facebook.  All those places.  And then kind of what you said, we have some amazing groups on Facebook, so if you’re looking for a community of people with the same desires and questions and goals as you, we have a private Facebook group, and you can search The VBAC Link Community.  There are some questions that you do have to answer to get in, but once you answer those questions, we can let you in, and oh, my gosh, that community is so amazing.  It’s so special.  Going and reading and just seeing the outpouring of love and support from the community is amazing.  And then we actually have a CBAC community as well.  CBAC is a new term we’re throwing out at you.  That’s Cesarean birth after Cesarean.  Sometimes the goal of a VBAC doesn’t always happen and it ends in a Cesarean, or someone may choose to have a scheduled Cesarean, right?  And we just want you to know that we love our CBAC mamas just as much as we love our VBAC mamas.  We love all of you, and we do have that group and you can search that on Facebook.  It’s The CBAC Link Community.

Beautiful!  Thank you for sharing all of your wisdom on VBACs and your passion, Meagan.  It was a delight to chat with you today!

IMPORTANT LINKS

VBAC Link

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

Kristin Revere and Kayli Joann discuss Kayli’s entrepreneurial journey, which started out of her frustration with finding postpartum bras and nightgowns that made her feel beautiful.  She decided to create her own line of clothing, Tender Seasons.

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Kayli Joann.  She is the owner and founder of Tender Seasons.  Kayli was born and raised in Michigan and still resides there with her husband and two children.  She is passionate about motherhood, and nothing gives her more joy than being a mom.

Our topic today is all about reclaiming your beauty and the self-image you had pre-pregnancy after having a baby.  So I’m excited to dive into this subject with Kayli, who has personal experience with it as a mother and then created her business based on the struggles she had in finding clothing and nightwear that made her feel sexy and confident after having a baby. 

Welcome, Kayli!

Thank you!  Thank you for having me!

Let’s get into it!  Tell us about your big why for creating your business and your personal struggle in finding nightgowns and clothing that made you feel like your former self or less like that mom who is feeling frumpy and just not ready to receive visitors.  All of the things that we feel as a postpartum mom!

Yes!  So my journey started with my first pregnancy with my oldest son.  He’s four now.  And I got pregnant and by the end of my pregnancy, I had gained 60 pounds.  So I definitely felt different.  I looked different.  I had all of the fun stuff with the puffy ankles and puffy face.  I felt miserable.  I went shopping to try to find some maternity stuff but also for postpartum, and my options were very limited.  And nothing felt like my true style.  Like, it just felt like the same style that I literally saw my older sisters wear, my mom wear, my grandma wear.  I was like, why hasn’t anybody put more effort into this?  Especially with nightgowns.

I was going to go for a weekend getaway, kind of like a babymoon.  I want to say I was 35 weeks pregnant.  And I went shopping to try to find a maternity nightgown, and I could not find anything.  I ended up buying one that was three sizes too big.  It wasn’t even maternity, and it looked awful.  That was kind of where the frustration started.  And then I ended up having my son, and then I realized when I started breastfeeding that the nursing bra options were really not great, either.  I was packing my hospital bag, and I was looking at the bras that I had, and I had looked all over.  And I was like, well, these are really not cute, but I guess I’ll deliver in this one because it’s kind of a purple color versus just the skin color and black.

So yeah, I had my son, and the frustrations just continued.  I didn’t really feel like myself, and I know with motherhood, you’re a whole new version of yourself, but when I looked in the mirror, I had the added weight gain but also the type of clothing that I like to wear, I couldn’t wear.  Either I couldn’t fit it, or the breastfeeding options were not great.  Especially the nightgowns and the bras; that’s what I just kept thinking of.

When my son was three months old, I was like, okay, if nobody is going to do this, I’m just going to do it.  I had no experience with designing or running my own business.  My dad had run his own business my whole life, but I really didn’t try to learn ins and outs of that.  So I was kind of nervous, but I was like, you know what, I have to start somewhere.

Like I said, my son was three months old, and I remember this moment exactly.  I think about this all the time.  He was in a little bouncy seat just kicking, and I was like, I’m just going to start somewhere.  So I grabbed a piece of paper and some pencils and I sat down and just drew up a nightgown, a maternity and nursing nightgown.  That’s where it all started, honestly.

I love it so much.  And your bras are beautiful, and you’ve expanded to some baby gear.  Like, you have swaddles and cute little hats and leggings and so much more than your original vision.

Yes.

Did that come from feedback from your early customers on what they needed, or how did you expand your vision to be more encompassing?

Some of it was from customers saying, hey, we’d love to see this.  We started with one nightgown in one color, and then it became the same nightgown in three colors.  Then we had a couple of other maternity dresses, and one bra that we started with.  And people really liked it, and we were like, oh, okay, this is going well!  But then with our manufacturing, we had a couple issues with trying to create the extra large sizes.  We have now been able to get this specific bra into size 3XL, but we were hearing from women that were 4XL, 5XL that they can’t fit into them, and nobody else has my size.  So that’s why we came out with our second bra, our Eden bra, to fill that need, but also so much more.  It’s the three in one, so it’s perfect for nursing, sleep, and delivery.

That is so beautiful because I feel like, one, bras are expensive.  And as a birth doula and a postpartum doula, I’m always talking about what you can wear in labor, not to wear a sports bra because it might get cut off, and what might make them feel good in labor and also be able to have that skin to skin time.  As a postpartum doula, helping them plan for their return home and all about enjoying that skin to skin time, whether they’re breastfeeding or not with baby, and being comfortable.  Leakage that comes with that postnatal time.  What would make them feel good about themselves, especially because there are a lot of interruptions, whether it’s your hospital stay or coming home.  There’s visitors, family members, and you want to look and feel good.

Absolutely.  And the craziest thing that I did not realize before I had my son was that I would be wearing a diaper.  People joke about it, but I had no idea.  It was hard enough, and being in a diaper just felt humiliating.

And you’re leaking everywhere and sore, and you just don’t feel beautiful.  And then after you have a baby, it’s all about baby.  During pregnancy, especially if it’s your first, the mother is celebrated, and there might be a shower or sprinkle and family members are talking about your cute baby bump and so on.  And then after you’ve gone through this transformative experience, whether it’s baby one or baby five, then everyone wants to hold the baby.  The gifts are for the baby.  And the mother feels left behind.  It’s hard to even process the experience.  Like you talked about, you’re wearing a diaper; the leaking.  It’s feeling just less than in that stage where your hormones feel like a roller coaster of emotions.  You might feel weepy.  And then you look at this outfit that you’re wearing.

The fact that you’re making women feel celebrated and beautiful in this time that they can feel a little left out is wonderful to me.

Well, thank you!  Yeah, women and new moms are a big passion of ours.  Me and Lynee, my business partner, we felt a huge need for this.  And we also dealt with these issues ourselves.  So after we were like, okay, we’re going to do this – we were like, okay, moms need to find out about this.  We really wanted to help mothers change the narrative and to feel empowered and not to feel weak.  Sometimes for some women, it’s hard to walk.  It’s hard to move.  All of this, just after giving birth.  What you wear does make a difference, but also you want something that’s comfortable and not completely unrealistic.  That has been really beautiful, to see the community that has been created through this and all the women that we have been able to reach out to and help and encourage.  It has been bigger than we even thought.  That’s been really, really cool to see.

Yes!  And Kayli, I feel like just the change in relationship, especially if this is a first baby, and wanting to feel beautiful for your partner and not just feel like parents.  Put some priority into the relationship.  If you’re not wearing this frumpy gown – I remember when I had kids.  My daughter is 13 now, my first child, and my son is 11.  I pretty much only had Motherhood Maternity to shop at, and I had this little gray nursing tank and robe and pant set that I wore postpartum pretty much constantly.  And I felt really frumpy in it, personally.  And now there are all of these cute gowns and robes and florals.  I just didn’t have a whole lot of options back then.

Yeah.  I had gotten a gift from someone at my baby shower, which had the sweetest intentions, and they were like, this is a dress that you can wear for delivery, and also, you could leave the hospital in it.  So I tried it on when I was pregnant with my first son, and I looked in the mirror, and it was this huge, baggy, heavy dress.  It was green.  And I started laughing and I said to my husband, I look like Shrek.  I literally look like an ogre.

So yeah, it is true.  You want to look good for your partner, and you want to feel confident.  They can say, oh, you look amazing and all this stuff, but you have to truly believe it.

Yes, you do!

It’s such a mental thing.

Yeah.  And every day, it’s trying to feel more like yourself and the woman that you are versus getting into that mom role and feeling like you exist only to change baby, feed baby, help baby sleep.  To get some normalcy back and feel beautiful and sexy and feel like you are still desirable is a huge shift.  I think that fashion and your line of bras and the gowns can make a huge impact on the little steps.

Oh, absolutely.  And sometimes it’s as little as just wearing a bra that makes you feel cute.  Whether we realize it or not, what we wear does impact our brain and how we take care of ourselves.  With postpartum, I like to encourage moms even with the little things, like brush your hair.  Wear something that makes you feel cute.  What we really want moms to feel – and I feel like it’s not talked about enough – is that what you did was absolutely incredible, and we want you to feel powerful, empowered.  We want you to feel beautiful, sexy, and to actually believe it.

Because of social media, Pinterest, Instagram – I feel like the postnatal phase is documented a lot more than when I had my kids.  So wanting to look beautiful in a photo of a nightgown or with a robe – I don’t want to say Pinterest perfect, but you get where I’m going with that.  There is that pressure in pregnancy and certainly early parenting to keep up with what you’re seeing online.  Now there are so many other choices fashion-wise for mother and baby.  Again, those cute swaddles and hats that you have.  If that makes you feel good, having these beautiful choices for the photos or videos, it’s another great thing to consider.

Definitely.  When I had my second son, Tender Seasons had already started.  I started it in 2020, and we officially launched our website in 2022.  That’s when Lynee, my sister-in-law, and I started working together as business partners.  That was, by the way, the best decision I ever made.

Yeah, it can be tough to work with family, so I’m impressed that it worked out well!

Definitely.  And with working together, our talents just complement each other so well.  It was kind of fun because she had two kids already, and I just had one when we started.  And a dream of mine was, next time I have my next baby and I’m in the hospital, I want to wear my stuff that helps me feel cute and strong.  And so when I had my second son, I was wearing a nightgown for delivery, and then I was wearing our bras for postpartum, but during my hospital stay, I had brought several of our items, and my baby was in our hat and swaddle.  I had this dream of, while I was in labor, orders coming in and me getting the notifications on my phone.  And it was super fun having that experience that I had dreamed of come to life.  And then when family came to visit me, I did – I felt so much better.  I felt cute, and I felt presentable.  And that was huge.

Yeah, it really does make a difference.  And setting some boundaries, limiting visitors, trying to rest.  Whether our listeners feel comfortable, now that visitor restrictions have lifted in most parts of the country – having five people in and out of their labor room or the visitors in the postpartum room, or waiting until they get home –  you never know when baby might need to feed.  With the bras, I feel like they’re beautiful, but also, they’re discreet.  If you needed to nurse in public, if you were comfortable doing that without a cover, that could be an option for you with family members or friends coming and going constantly.

Yes, absolutely.  You definitely said it.  With being able to do it quickly in public, whether you decide to use a nursing cover or not – I’m not, but I’m not against them.  I think they’re wonderful.  It’s about each individual and their comfort level; that’s the right thing.  But one thing when we came out with our bras that was important to us was to have that easy, quick access.  When you have a crying, screaming, newborn and they’re ready to eat, you’ve just got to get it out quick.  So that’s nice.  We have our lace bra and then our Eden bra.  Our lace bra has quick, easy nursing clips, and you can do it just with one hand.  And then with our Eden bra, you just pull it to the side.  With postpartum, while your body is trying to decide, like, how much milk am I supposed to make for baby – personally, I dealt with milk leakage for a while.  Like, for several months.

So did I, with both kids.

Yeah, and I’d wake up in a puddle of milk.  I’m like, what just happened?  So that was one thing with our lace bra that was really important to us.  It’s leakproof.  Milk leaks are not an issue.  It absorbs the milk leaks so you’re not getting it through your shirt.  I was at my newborn’s checkup appointment, and I’m sitting in the waiting room, and people were starting to look at me.  I was like, what’s going on?  And I look down – this was with my first son.  I had through my bra, through my shirt, a stream trickling down to my lap, of milk.

I’ve been there.  It’s the worst.  I marched in a parade once and I leaked through my shirt, and there was nowhere for me to go.  I was pushing the stroller with my son, and I was leaking, and it was hot.  The worst!

These are parts of motherhood, and I think that finding ways to help things be more seamless is important.  Motherhood is busy, and it’s chaotic at times.

There are so many new gadgets that I’m thankful for, for clients.  Like the milk collectors and so many more breastfeeding and pumping related gadgets to make life easier.  Back when I had kids, it was, like, bamboo pad inserts, and I would be feeding on one side and leaking on the other.  The bamboo inserts wouldn’t collect enough, as an overproducer.  I am thankful for the milk collectors!

Yes, very true!

So one thing I would love to cover with you, Kayli, is you mentioned your bras being able to support larger breast sizes.  But it can be difficult in pregnancy and in the postnatal phase to choose the right bra because our sizes change so drastically when our supply establishes, during pregnancy, when things settle as far as supply.  You can often need to purchase multiple bras in different sizes.  It can be challenging to find the best fit.  So what are your tips in handling those changes?

So typically, we suggest size up.  But if you’re wanting something that is going to work for you while you’re pregnant and once your milk supply decides to regulate, our stuff is very stretchy, so usually that will do the trick.  But if you want to play it safe, order the size that you’re currently in while pregnant, and then size up, so that if that happens where your breasts get a lot larger when the milk comes in, you’ll have that second option for however long that takes.  If they decide to go back down, you’ll have the other one that you had in pregnancy.  But a lot of women are buying our bras while they’re pregnant, and it works all through.  I think it’s more of those extreme cases where they go up, like, three sizes when their milk comes in that they might need to get another size.  But all of our products are extremely stretchy and soft.  You’re never going to feel pushed on.  Especially with clogging milk ducts – I have dealt with clogged milk ducts in the past, and it is one of the most painful things.  What the lactation consultant told me was, you have to make sure that stuff is not pushing.  Your clothing, your bras are not pushing on your milk ducts.  That was something that was super important to us, too.  We do not want moms to have to deal with that.

Yeah, it’s very uncomfortable.  That is amazing.  So is there anything else that you would like to highlight from your product line?

We came out with a baby balm a couple years ago because my son was dealing with diaper rash.  And nothing was working for him.  The rash just kept coming back.  I tried all of the diaper rash creams and pastes; you name it.  So we came out with our baby balm.  It was originally called Baby Bum Balm, but then our customers were like, hey, I’m actually using this all over my baby’s body.  It’s working great for eczema, cradle cap.  So we kind of rebranded that and decided to make it an All-Over Baby Balm.  That was a complete game changer.  My son’s diaper rash went away right away within 24 hours.  It never came back.  I used it all the way until he was potty trained.  This has been a very popular product because moms are using it for all these different things, and it’s helping with a lot of stuff.  My youngest deals with eczema, so I’ve used this on his skin and it helps him so, so much.  With this formula, it’s all organic.  Everything is very clean ingredients.  I’m trying to remember off the top of my head every single ingredient, but one of the main ingredients, our oil is infused with calendula flower.  Calendula is extremely healing and has been known to help with burn scars and all sorts of different things.  Having that in there, it does this hydrating and nourishing and healing all in one.  It has been something that moms actually love and keep coming back for more.  It was life changing for me and my household.

Again, solving problems!  You couldn’t find the right products, so you created it yourself.  That’s what moms do!

Yes.  That’s another thing; I want to encourage moms that you can do whatever you put your mind to.  Just because you have a baby or children, don’t feel selfish for trying to follow your dreams and to be doing things for yourself, as well.  I know a lot of moms will feel selfish for doing anything for themselves after they have baby.  Everything inside them is like, take care of the baby all the time.  Baby, baby, baby.  And everyone, including your partner and your children, are going to be – they’re happy when mom is happy.  So I feel like it’s important to take the time to do things that help you take care of everyone else because you can’t pour from an empty cup.

Right.  So true.  Excellent.  Any final tips for our listeners, Kayli?  Anything about balancing motherhood or preparing for the postnatal phase; anything you want to suggest?

Give yourself grace.  Give yourself time.  And try to find the beauty of your changing body because for some reason, the minute you have your baby, people are like, oh, you’ve got to get the baby weight off.  You’ve got to do this.  Hide the stretch marks.  That’s something that we’re not okay with.  We encourage women to be healthy, but also, that starts with a healthy brain.  Loving and embracing your changing body – if you have stretch marks, okay, cool!  Look, you have something that shows what you did.  You grew a human.  And that’s absolutely incredible.  So kind of changing things in your brain, to look at that and be like, wow.  And say to your body, thank you, instead of just squeezing the parts that are a little fluffier than they were before.  I think it’s important to realize that it’s beautiful.  Everything that you’ve gone through in creating a human – it is beautiful.  That’s what I want mothers to know.  Just give yourself grace and be kind to yourself.

Beautiful.  So how can our listeners connect with you, Kayli?

We’re on social media.  We’re on Facebook and Instagram.  We are also on TikTok.  But the best way to reach out to us – if you just want tips on sizing or if you have any questions or you just want to say hi, probably the easiest way is to send us a message on Instagram.  We also have a couple email addresses as well.  Tenderseasons.lynee@gmail.com is a good one if you want to contact Lynee.  Both of us love to hear from our customers, and we do not mind when customers are like, hey, I’m this size; what size do you suggest?  Or they’re like, this is my first baby; I’m worried about sizing for when milk comes in.  Some people are nervous to reach out to brands because they’re afraid that their messages won’t get a reply or that they’re bugging people, but with us, we love hearing from our customers.  So do not feel bad; we love hearing from you.  It makes our day when we hear from our customers, honestly.

I love it so much, and everything that you’re doing at Tender Seasons.  Thanks for sharing your founders story with us, Kayli!

Of course, of course!  Thank you for having me!  This has been such an honor.

It has been my pleasure, and I look forward to chatting with you again soon!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Tender Seasons

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

Kristin Revere and Jacque Ordner discuss finding ways to make pumping more effective, comfortable, and sustainable in the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.  Jacque is an IBCLC, BSN, RN, RLC, and Motif Medical Advisor. 

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas.  I am thrilled to chat with Jacque Ordner today.  Jacque has many titles: IBCLC, BSN, RN, RLC.  And she is an advisor to Motif Medical.

As a registered nurse and IBCLC, Jacque has worked with breastfeeding families in the clinic, hospital, and private practice settings.  As a mom of four, Jacque is intimately familiar with the struggles that breastfeeding families face, and she loves helping families create personalized feeding plans to help them reach their breastfeeding goals.  Jacque has developed much of her career to creating lactation, birth, and baby care educational programs that equip new parents for the journey ahead.  She is passionate about finding ways to make pumping more effective, comfortable, and sustainable.

Welcome, Jacque!

Thank you so much!  I’m glad to be here!

I am excited to dive into the pumping topic, especially making pumping more comfortable.  I’d love to hear your tips for our listeners.

Absolutely.  This is something I’m really passionate about, working with families in private practice and advising Motif Medical.  The goal is to make pumping more comfortable, rather than something that we just absolutely dread.  There’s always going to be parts of it that we dread; washing parts, and all those things.  But my biggest tips are to understand, first of all, that it shouldn’t hurt, and if it does, that means that we need to investigate the underlying causes of that.  Most often, it’s flange size.  We need to get the right flange fit.  Other causes could be an underlying infection, or maybe we have soreness going on with baby’s latch, and that’s sort of transferring over and being exacerbated by pumping.  But honestly, most of the time, we’re not getting that flange fit correct.  That’s usually the first place that I start.

That makes sense.  So I know that with my own pumping and breastfeeding journey, it was difficult to find the right size.  And one breast can be a different size than the other, and trying to make that comfortable, you don’t have to just grin and bear it.  There is so much more that you can do, such as find a lactation consultant like yourself to help with that journey.

Yes!  And what’s really exciting is over the last, I would say, five to eight years, maybe, we have seen more of a focus on sort of just looking at nipple sizes and saying, okay, maybe this size 24 that comes in the box as “standard” isn’t really standard.  People are surprised to find out that flange sizes that sort of just came when we started working with pumps when they were invented – that wasn’t based on science having to do with human nipple sizes.  It was really science having to do with dairy animals.  And last time I checked, most of us don’t look like dairy animals when we’re talking about our anatomy.  It makes a lot of sense that we really need to revisit that topic, and thankfully, there is a lot of new information emerging.

Something I’m really excited about with Motif is we are taking a look at all of our flange sizing guidance, and you will see it’s a big process to change everything that comes in the box and to change all of the instructions about how to get your flange size.  But that is something that Motif has been willing to take on, and we are changing all that guidance to more closely align with the newer information that’s coming out.  And that information really is that most people’s nipples are smaller than 24mm.  They need a smaller flange size.  So we’re trying to adapt to that and provide moms what they need to be comfortable without having to jump through all these hoops.

So we’ve got this new flange sizing sort of criteria that we’re working with or instructions that we’re providing to parents, and that is you want to stimulate your nipples.  You want to get them to perk up, be everted as much as possible.  Sometimes we have nipple shapes and sizes that are a little bit more difficult to measure and to size, and so that’s when you need to seek out that expert help.  We’ve got a couple of flange sizing tools.  One is like a measurement tape.  It’s actually on a card.  And it’s like a ruler, but with the millimeter measurements, so you can measure from one side to the other of the base of your nipple after you’ve got it everted.  The other one has the holes that you can slide over the nipple itself.  You want to use something like that to measure in millimeters, and you do want to measure both sides, like you mentioned.  And then after you have your measurement, we’re not adding as much as we used to.  The current information is that we only need to be adding maybe zero to three millimeters, where we used to say two or four, or some sources said two to five.  And we’re finding that just like when baby’s mouth is stimulating that nipple tissue, baby’s mouth is touching the nipple on all sides, so it’s no longer this, oh, no, you can’t have the nipple touching.  It’s the nipple can touch as long as we’re not seeing a lot of swelling and it’s not painful.  So we’re definitely expecting a shift in how moms are able to size themselves, as long as they have the correct information, which is sort of the most important starting point.

Absolutely.  I’d love to hear more about Motif Medical.

I’m so excited to work with Motif.  As somebody who loves pumping, and as a mom of four, I have nursed my babies; I have exclusively pumped.  At times, I’ve pumped for a couple of adoptions.  So pumping is something I’m passionate about personally and professionally.  And what I love about Motif is they seek the information from parents and from professionals.  They want to know what makes lives easier, but not just what products can we put out there to market and make money.  Obviously, business is business, and you have to have products that sell to make a business work, but they’re really interested in, let’s solve problems.  Let’s figure out how we can make our pumps more effective.  Let’s get this flange sizing thing figured out.  Let’s make milk storage easier.  Because the whole idea is to make pumping easier and to help families meet their breastfeeding goals.  I just love that they’re constantly seeking information from the people who are boots on the ground, in the thick of it, so they can improve their products.

My favorite product from Motif is the Motif Luna pump.  It is an absolute workhorse pump.  It’s a pump that you could exclusively pump with.  I have exclusively pumped with it.  It’s a pump that you can build supply with right out of the gate.  And it rivals hospital rentals as far as performance.

That’s amazing!

It is!  When you look at the technical features, it really does rival the hospital rentals, and it’s available through insurance.  Usually, even to get the battery option is a lesser upcharge for moms than many other pumps on the market.  So I just sing its praises all the time.

I had to rent a hospital grade pump as my daughter was in the NICU and came home, so that was challenging.  I love that there are other options like Motif’s pump that have the strength of a hospital grade pump but you don’t have – I mean, it’s pretty big and bulky.

Yeah, and the Motif Luna is – you would just be surprised at how lightweight it is and how quiet it is.  I remember the hospital rentals that you’re just like, I’m going to turn this thing on and wake my baby up in the middle of the night, and that is so frustrating.  I’m excited for the advances that are happening in this space so that families who are dealing with all these other things – we can at least make pumping a little bit easier.

Excellent.  What are your tips for our listeners who are pumping at work?

Oh, my goodness.  First of all, it’s not easy, and there are no magic formulas to just take out all of the difficulty.  But I like to remind families that I work with that just because something is hard doesn’t mean it’s bad.  So we can do really hard things and have really positive results for ourselves, and sometimes it’s just important when you’re in the thick of it to remember that it’s okay that pumping is hard at work and continuing to breastfeed while I’m at work, it’s hard.  Hard doesn’t equal bad, and there can be good things that are coming out on the other side.  The focus on those positives can really be motivating.

I think the biggest tip I have is not to get so overwhelmed with what you see on social media.  Probably three, four, five years ago, that was not my biggest tip, but it has become that way because so many families are coming to me.  Moms are saying, I’m only pumping four ounces at every pump session, and I’m shouting, going yes, that’s wonderful; that’s a great amount.  But mom is dejected because she’s seeing amounts from influencers on social media that are ten ounces, eight ounces at a pumping session, so there’s this disconnect between what real, normal output is versus oversupply.  So my first tip is to know what normal is.  25 ounces a day is the average intake for a breastfed baby from one month all the way to six months when we introduce solids.  So if you’re seeing somebody pumping eight to ten ounces at every pump session on Instagram, that’s an oversupply, and you don’t need to feel like you’re doing something wrong if you’re not getting those amounts.

I would say my second biggest tip is to know that some milk removal is better than no milk removal.  So if you’re in a situation – like especially teachers that I work with, nurses – being a nurse, I remember you couldn’t even go to the bathroom, let alone get in a pumping session sometimes.  Having this sort of mentality of, I’m going to do some milk removal, even if I can’t get in a full pumping session, can really be beneficial at protecting your supply.  So learned the skill of hand expression.  I can’t tell you the number of times I hand expressed into a sterile urine cup when I was working in the hospital because that’s what I could do.  I could steal away for five minutes, wash my hands.  I had a sterile container.  And I expressed some milk rather than skipping a full pumping session.

I had to do that as a doula, as well.  I can totally relate.  At a birth, you have just a few minutes. 

Yes!  Yeah, and you’re just like, some relief.  But also, you’re at least telling your body, I need some of this milk, and it’s more protective to your milk supply.

I think also reminding ourselves that breastfeeding doesn’t have to be all or nothing.  If you go back to work and you’re doing all the things and your mental health starts to struggle; you feel like, I just maybe need some formula.  First of all, I would highly encourage you to work with an IBCLC because sometimes there are things that maybe you’re missing.  You need somebody to look at big picture, and there are some ways to adjust things and you can meet whatever your original goals were.  And sometimes we need to adjust our goals.  And it’s okay.  You’re not unsuccessful if your goals change and you maybe aren’t producing 100% of what baby takes.  Now, it’s entirely possible to produce 100%, but sometimes we have to look at the whole big picture and decide what our priorities are.  And you’re not failing if you’re making 30%, 80%.  It doesn’t always have to be 100% of what baby is taking.

So true.  So I would love to talk a bit more about how partners can support the pumping journey. 

I’m sure that you work with partners so much as a doula, and I always champion doulas as the coach kind of mentality with partners.  But partners can really influence so much and breastfeeding in general that they just don’t realize.  Sometimes we get focused on, I’m not the one physically feeding the baby, if mom is nursing directly at breast.  If I’m not the one physically feeding the baby, somehow I’m not bonding with my baby.  And I love to tell partners that every time you meet a need for your baby, you are creating attachment.  You can work on anticipating and recognizing their needs, and then that helps foster the secure attachment.  So every time you change a diaper, every time you bring baby to mom for a nursing session, every time you wash pump bottles, every time you give the baby a bath – you are doing something that is supporting your baby’s basic needs, and that is creating secure attachment.  So try not to be so focused on, I have to directly feed my baby to have a bond, because that’s just not true.  And then basic things for mom, too: meeting her needs is also supporting her.  Filling her water cup every time she sits down to nurse or pump.  Washing those pump parts.  Oh, my goodness.  I told my husband he never looked better to me than when he was at the sink washing my pump parts.  Doing things like asking, what can I do that would be make it easier for you right now, because as moms, sometimes we’re sitting down and we have 10,000 things running through our brains.  It looks like we’re just pumping.  It looks like we’re just nursing our baby.  But mentally, we’re juggling a lot of things.  And so having a partner that says, what are you thinking about, and what can I take off your plate that maybe has nothing to do with baby care or nothing to do with pumping, but is just something else in our lives and the management of our household that can be handled?

And then research really tells us that being a cheerleader is so valuable for success when it comes to breastfeeding.  So no matter how your partner is feeding the baby, whether we’re pumping and bottle feeding, directly nursing, doing a combination of both – telling her that she is doing a great job, encouraging her when times are tough.  Maybe we’re dealing with cluster feeding or a dip in supply.  Helping to provide factual information, so learning about breastfeeding as a partner so you can then reinforce with factual information is really, really important for success overall.

Excellent.  And with partner involvement, I’m always suggesting that they attend a breastfeeding and/or pumping class to be able to understand how to put a pump together or how to be that encourager and help in other ways to optimize rest for the new mom.

Absolutely.  Even just having somebody sitting next to you in class – you’re just not going through that experience alone.  It doesn’t feel like it’s all on your shoulders.  It’s so important.

And my final question for you, Jacque, is you mentioned that insurance covers the Motif pumps and some of the differences with your pumps, but I would love to have your tips in selecting the right pump that works for the individual based on their needs and goals.  And also, how do you figure out if your insurance covers a particular pump?

Fantastic question!  First of all, the insurance piece is easiest, so we’ll start with that.  You can actually go right onto the Motif Medical website, motifmedical.com, and there is an insurance lookup tool where you can put in your insurance information and it will pop up different DMEs, durable medical equipment, providers who carry Motif pumps and work with your insurance.  Probably the most well known is Aeroflow.  Lots of people are really familiar with Aeroflow because they’ve got the whole things figured out.  We’ve had to send things to your house and all of that.  But there are tons of other DMEs as well who do the same thing and different DMEs might have different options based on your insurance provider.  So if you don’t find the pump that you’re looking for at one, check with another one.  That’s something I highly recommend.  And you can find even a brick and mortar store if that’s important to you to go touch the pump.  There are definitely still brick and mortar DMEs available, and the insurance lookup tool on the site will tell you all of that information if you want to go see and touch the pumps, which I’m somebody that would want to go do that.

As far as choosing a pump, on our website, I’ve written some recent blog content really diving into this, but we divide them into really primary and secondary pumps, and that’s not like, oh, this pump is just better and this pump is worse.  It’s really more about how we’re using them.  So the Luna, because it has a really high performing motor – it’s a double electric pump.  It has the independent cycle and vacuum, so you can adjust how fast or slow it is pulling the nipple, cycles per minute or sucks per minute, versus the vacuum.  They’re independent of each other.  So you can have it going really fast with a really high vacuum or low vacuum and vice versa.  So that is kind of the hallmark of a primary use pump.  And then the other thing is that it uses traditional flanges because we tend to see better milk removal with traditional flanges.

So then in our secondary pump category, we have things like the Motif Duo.  We have a wearable pump called the Motif Aura.  And those would be more of your secondary pumps, meaning we’re not going to rely on those for building a milk supply or exclusive pumping or maybe regularly pumping back at work.  We might have a secondary pump that we use sometimes, but we’re also going to have that primary pump like the Luna to really have those effective, efficient pumping sessions to just undergird the whole process.

So think of your primary pump like the Luna as the one that you probably want to use your insurance benefit for, and then something portable or wearable like the Duo or the Aura, these smaller, more portable pumps.  That’s something you put on your baby registry as an extra.  Really nice to have, but you want to have that primary pump as the main pump that you’re using to remove your milk.

The other thing when you’re looking at choosing a pump is battery options.  So a lot of the primary pumps out there, like Luna, you have plug-in option, and then you have the same pump, but it has a rechargeable battery, and I can tell you in all the families that I’ve worked with, no one has ever been sorry that they scraped together a $30 upgrade fee or a $40 or $50 upgrade fee for that rechargeable battery.  So any sense that you might need to be pumping in the car or where there’s no electricity or even in a power outage – if you’re exclusively pumping and the power goes out, having that charged battery is going to be really important to your pumping journey.

And then the other thing is knowing that flange sizing.  With Motif, it’s across the board once you figure out your flange size.  You can apply that to all of the pumps.  And so making sure that you can have an idea of what your flange size is and that as you’re shopping for pumps, make sure that that pump has some sort of option to size for you.  A lot of times, it’s a third party insert that is compatible, and that’s totally fine.  With Motif, we want you to use whatever size works for you, so it doesn’t have to be our product, but something that’s compatible that would size it for you.  So just making sure that is an option.  You don’t purchase a pump and then realize, oh, there’s not an insert available for this particular pump that fits me.

Makes sense.  And you mentioned your website for Motif Medical, but how can our listeners and doula clients connect?  I know you’re also on social media, for example.

We are.  Yes, you can find us on Instagram, on Facebook.  Definitely, you can even reach out.  If you go to our website and read a blog and you want to leave a comment, that’s always an option, as well.  We have great customer service.  That’s one of the things I absolutely love about Motif.  We get high marks in customer service, and those gals work so hard to make sure customers are happy.  You can always reach out to us for customer service, and that is available through the website as well, or you can call customer service directly.

Excellent.  Thank you so much for sharing all of your pumping wisdom, Jacque, and we’ll have to have you on again.

Loved it!  Thanks so much for the conversation!  Such an important topic.  I appreciate it.

IMPORTANT LINKS

Motif Medical

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

Kristin Revere and Dr. Ari Brown focus on the benefits of goat milk formula on the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.  Dr. Brown is the chief medical advisor at Kabrita.

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Dr. Ari Brown.  Dr. Brown is a pediatrician, best-selling author, and chief medical advisor at Kabrita.  She has been in private practice for over 25 years.  Her passion to advocate for children and educate families extends beyond the office setting.  She is the co-author of the best-selling 411 Parenting book series, including Baby 411: Clear Answers and Smart Advice for Your Baby’s First Year; Expecting 411, and Toddler 411.  Dr. Brown has received several professional awards, including the American Academy of Pediatrics Advocacy Award and the Ralph Feigin MD Award for Professional Excellence.

Welcome, Dr. Brown!

Thank you so much for having me!

What an impressive background!  I don’t know how you have the time to author three books.  I’ve only authored one, and it took me two years!

Well, it’s been a journey.  Let’s say I didn’t get much sleep during those years, put it that way.

I can only imagine!  I’m excited to learn from you.  It is excellent timing in that we’re recording this during National Breastfeeding Awareness Month, but we are going to talk about all types of feeding today.  So I’d love to get into a bit more about your background and what led you to focus on feeding topics, especially goat milk formula.

Sure.  So I am starting my 30^th year of practice.  My gosh.  And I see a lot of newborns.  Over the years, I’ve cared for too many to count, and now those little babies – some of those are parents and bringing their babies to me now!

That’s so lovely!  The full circle!

It does.  It feels full circle, and it’s really – I have to say, I have the best job in the world because I get to be part of all of these families’ experiences and share in watching their kids grow up.  And what a great gig, right?  But I think in my experience – and also, by the way, I’m a parent too – I know what keeps parents up at night.  And the reality is that we’ve been given this very precious gift, and we don’t want to screw it up.  So the stakes feel really high, and we all want to do our best, right?  I think what I’ve learned on this journey of walking this road with parents is they feel much more empowered when they’re knowledgeable and also learning that we’re all just trying to do our best and that no one is every going to be the perfect parent, right?  So I try to give parents that knowledge base.  I feel very passionate about education, which is why I write books and do speaking engagements and do all these crazy things.  And I also want them to feel like they don’t need to be a martyr, right, and that they have to be open minded and realize that we’re not going to be able to control all the variables, as much as we would love to do that.  And so we want parents to be confident in the way that they feed their baby, and I think that when it comes to breastfeeding particularly, the struggles early on can feel insurmountable, and I don’t think people are prepared for that.  So that’s part of the education piece is preparing families for, wow, this may seem like a natural thing, but it doesn’t come naturally for everybody, and everybody has to learn.  The baby has to learn.  You have to learn.  And that takes some practice, and sometimes there’s some challenges.  And those challenges are early, right when you’ve delivered a baby and you’re exhausted and your hormones are all over the place.  All of those things can conspire to make that journey very early on very difficult.  And so teaching families where they can get help and being prepared for that is one of my missions.

And how that led to goat milk based infant formula?  Well, the interesting thing is, watching my families over the years, I’ve learned a lot of things from them and what’s important to them.  I had families that were basically buying not regulated formula from Europe – basically, being bootlegged.  It’s almost like prohibition days, and people were bootlegging this formula with a middle man that was questionable.  Like, where are you getting this product?  And these families would be saying, well, I’m buying this and I’m getting – and I’m like, why are you doing this?  I was actually pretty intrigued by this whole process, which was really kind of consumer driven.  People were looking for something better as an alternative that they could feel confident about to feed their babies.  So I kind of became goat curious, as an American pediatrician, because we didn’t have that, any goat milk based product, in the American market.  I came across Kabrita while they were going through the entire process, which by the way, the only goat milk based infant formula in the US that meets all FDA requirements, and they did this whole process and they did it right.  I kind of stumbled upon them back in 2018 as they were going through this process and was really excited that they were doing it right.  They were doing the work and doing the research and the clinical trials and getting it published and really demonstrating the efficacy – and we’ll talk more about why I’m excited about goat milk based infant formula, but they brought this product to market through the correct channels where you can actually buy it the way you’re supposed to be able to buy a product in the US, and so that’s why I’m excited about this.  It does offer a great option for families if they are combo feeding or if they ultimately formula feed their baby.

That makes complete sense.  And of course, we’ve gone through the formula shortage.  You mentioned trying to buy European formula, buying formula online and not knowing the source.  There was a lot of desperation, not only in being able to find formula, but also afford it.

Right, yeah.  I think the infant formula shortage demonstrated that the American formula supply system is kind of messed up.  And there had been kind of – not a monopoly but an oligopoly, kind of two major manufacturers.  And some of it is because we have a system where we have the WIC program, which is the Woman, Infant, and Children program where government subsidizes infant formula for families, which is fantastic, but because there are these government contracts, it kind of restricts the marketplace, right?  And then when we had a problem and we lost basically 40% of our infant formula supply in the US overnight because one manufacturing plant had a problem with a contamination event, it made us realize, wow, we probably need to have more options here in the US.  And so I think that has been an eye opener and hopefully an opportunity for us to have more options.  That did bring in other infant formulas, and it is a nice reminder that Kabrita, like I said, had been going through this entire regulatory process and meeting all of the hurdles.  Some of these other products that have kind of entered the market only have emergency discretion use because of the infant formula shortage, and for them to maintain their supply in the US, they have to go through the same FDA regulatory hurdles, which that has not happened for those products yet.  But I am thankful that it’s been a horrible situation, but it’s offered an opportunity to have more options for us and a more stable infant formula supply, hopefully, in the future.

Exactly.  So Dr. Brown, I would love for you to explain the difference between goat milk formula and the, say, cow milk based, and the pros and cons of each.  And certainly, as families are making choices, it’s good to have all of the information.  I know with a lot of my clients, their infant or baby might have skin reactions or some allergies to the milk based formulas.

Sure.  So let’s start really simple and talk about what infant formula is.  So it’s a chemical formula.  That’s why it’s called formula.  But as we have evolved, as civilization has evolved, we have created options to approximate and resemble human milk, as much as we can.  And so people have tried many different kind of formula bases over the years and then tried to modify it, which is the formula piece, to compare it as much as possible to human milk.  And to be clear, there is nothing like human milk.  Breastmilk – human milk is made for human babies, right?  And it’s living food, and it’s dynamic food.  It’s never exactly the same for every person or even on a daily basis, right?  So you’re never going to get exact comparison.  But when you’re trying to create these infant formulas, historically, what has been the most popular base has been cow milk protein.  And I think a lot of people don’t realize it, because that’s what’s so prevalent.  When you look at a can of formula, you don’t realize, oh, this is made out of cow milk or this is made out of goat milk.  In general, the leader in the marketplace, or at least in the United States for – I will say goat milk based infant formula has been around for decades worldwide.  This is not new there.  It’s just new in the US.  But cow milk has been the prevailing base for infant formula.  And most babies tolerate it and do fine with it.  And all of the what we call macronutrients and micronutrients – so your macronutrients are your fat and your protein and your carbohydrate, and your micronutrients are your vitamins and minerals, like folic acid and vitamin D and all the other ones.  So those ingredients are regulated.  So for any product to be sold in the United States – or the EU has their standards, and wouldn’t it be great if we all had one universal standard, but we don’t.  The United States has 29 ingredients that have to be regulated and meet those standards to be able to be sold in the US and meet all FDA requirements.  All of those ingredients are as close to, again, human milk as possible.  And then there are some premium ingredients that some manufacturers will add, and that kind of falls under what we call bioactives.  So they’re probiotics or prebiotics.  Other things that, again, are present in human milk and then are added to infant formula to try to resemble human milk as much as possible.  But the base, again, is kind of the protein, right?  So cow milk protein has historically been the most popular base.

Now, there are some babies who cannot tolerate that protein, and there are some babies who are actually allergic to that protein.  So for babies who struggle with tolerance issues – you may have a fussy, gassy baby; constipated baby; unhappy baby.  And then when you have a baby who has a true allergy, you may seem eczema.  The one key thing that we’re looking for as pediatricians is blood in the stool.  There is – it’s called a food protein induced proctitis, but what happens is the lining of the gut gets irritated because of this protein allergy, and then the baby may have this – what looks like slimy, mucous, snotty-looking stool, but then when you test it in the lab, there’s actually blood in it.  Some babies, you will actually see the blood visibly.

So for those kids, you can’t have them on a cow milk protein based infant formula.  You have to use something that’s considered hypoallergenic where the protein has been totally broken down or an elemental formula where it’s just amino acids floating around, like the protein is just amino acids.  It’s not even cow milk based.  And we have tried other alternatives.  In the US, there’s also a soy-based product for some babies and for families who for dietary reasons do not want a cow-based product.  So we’ve had kind of these categories of cow milk based infant formula, soy based infant formula, hypoallergenic where the protein is really, really broken down, and then elemental formulas where it’s just amino acids and there’s not even any cow milk.

But these babies that have trouble tolerating the cow milk protein, that’s when people are seeking alternatives because it’s really not fun to have a baby who’s miserable, right?  And so that’s where goat milk infant based formula has risen in popularity, but what I always try to tell people is this is not just a niche product for babies who can’t tolerate cow milk protein.  It is completely acceptable as first line nutrition.  You don’t have to wait until your baby has a problem with cow milk to try goat milk based infant formula, and in fact, that’s now been endorsed by the American Academy of Pediatrics.  They put out an endorsement in 2023 regarding that.

But here’s the difference.  So why is goat milk protein different than cow milk protein, and why is it more tolerated?  So the key is – and this is where we’re getting a little bit granular, a little nitty gritty – but if everyone remembers Little Miss Muffet, sitting on her tuffet, eating her curds and whey – milk proteins are casein, which is the curds, and whey is very liquidy.  And casein, when it gets digested in the gut – curds.  Kind of like cottage cheese, like those clumps.  And so the big difference between goat milk and cow milk, naturally, is that the goat milk protein, that casein protein, is more like human milk, which is why it’s more easily digested.  And so it’s got more beta casein and it’s got less alpha S1 casein than cow milk, and it’s got more alpha S2 casein.  So it’s a little bit granular, but at the end of the day, the casein makes the curds different.  And the goat casein curds are softer and looser, so they’re easier to digest, versus the cow milk curds.  And so when you look at the data on these clinical trials of the babies who drink the goat milk based infant formula versus the cow milk based infant formula, it’s more tolerable.  You have fewer reports of the gassiness, colicky behavior, constipation, and even there’s some data on sleep where the babies sleep a little bit more comfortably and slightly longer, which for a newborn, I don’t give anyone – I don’t tell anyone their baby is going to sleep, so this is not like the baby is going to sleep through the night.  But it does seem that it’s more tolerated.  And so that’s really the key difference between those two.  Now that Kabrita is out – it came out in January here in the US – I’ve had families who have started cow milk based infant formula, and if the babies are having trouble with it, I’m like, let’s try this!  Let’s see how it goes!  And I’ve had good success with families.  So I can say clinically that I do think I have some happier babies after trying it.  I’m very excited about that.

The other piece that’s a little bit different between the cow milk and the goat milk is something called oligosaccharides, and again, this is a little bit granular, but these are prebiotics that are in huge numbers in human milk.  Huge, like third leading ingredient in human milk.  And goat milk naturally contains five times more oligosaccharides than the cow milk.  So that makes a big difference.  Also, there’s a diversity in the population.  So what it does is it fosters the baby’s microbiome because you need the prebiotics to grow those little germs that help your gut digest.  That’s also a reason why goat milk based infant formula has an advantage over the cow milk based because it’s supporting the microbiome and the gut health.

So where can our listeners and doula clients find Kabrita?

Super easy.  It’s on Amazon now.  You can buy it directly from Kabrita if you go to Kabrita.com.  You’ll be able to order it directly online and you can even set a schedule and set it and forget it and it shows up however often you want it to.  As far as in stores, there are a variety of supermarkets that are now carrying it nationwide.  Whole Foods is now carrying it.  And stay tuned because there’s a lot of other places that are coming, probably by the end of the year.

Exciting!  I’d love to take a few minutes to chat about your books.  I’m sure that our listeners would be interested in ordering the entire series.  They’re so helpful!

That was an evolution of families coming in, really seeking information.  I’m working on my second generation of parents, right?  But I’ve watched this evolution of parents who crave information, and they want more detail and they really want to understand and make science based decisions, right?  And as the growth of the internet and opportunities to filter information on that become more and more confusing – it’s overwhelming.  You have a vast array of information.  You just don’t know if it’s accurate, right?  And so as I watched my parents in my practice struggle with wanting to learn more, but I don’t know what I can trust.  Can you help me?  It exceeded the duration of our well check time, and I was like, how can I really give you more information, what you really need, and how can I be kind of at your bedside when I’m actually not physically there?  That was the birth of Baby 411.  It was really just all the questions that parents asked.  I think people still buy books, which is exciting.  As a book author, I’m so glad people still buy books because I think it’s super important to have everything in one place.  But in the day – you know, I’ve kind of picked up all the parenting books that were on the bookshelves, and I was like, what is missing here?  Because clearly people are reading this stuff, and they still don’t know what they need to know.  And so what I realized is that most of them are not written by somebody who lives in Exam Room 1.  And that’s what I can honestly say is I spend my days in Exam Room 1, and I’ve made a career of conversations with families.  So it’s really that level of detail.  And now we have a challenge, because I’m on the tenth edition of Baby 411.  We update our books every two years.  So I’ll say to my parents, if you have a question that is not in this book, you get added to the next edition.

I love it!  Because everything changes, even in two years, with sleep, feeding, all of the things.

Exactly.  So we update it.  I’m on social media.  I’m on TikTok.  My daughter, who is an adult now, was like, you need to be on TikTok.  That’s where people are who are young parents.  And I’m like, oh, okay.  So I’m actually on TikTok, but I will say, in between every update on my books, I’m always posting new information, and when there’s something that’s buzzing, I definitely address it so that people will understand, what do I really need to be concerned about?  Is this new study important, or is it just hype and the headline and the clickbait?  So anyway, I encourage people to follow me there because I really try to keep people abreast of new and changing things and then again, we update the books every two years.  So it’s very relevant and timely and evidence-based.

So where can they find your books?

Again, go to Amazon.  Our books are sold nationwide where books are sold, so every national bookstore carries them.  Amazon, or you can go to Baby411.com and buy it direct.

Beautiful.  Dr. Brown, you mentioned TikTok.  I’ve seen your videos on Instagram, as well.  I’ll have to check out your TikTok.  But yeah, they’re very helpful and engaging.  Where else can our listeners connect with you?  You mentioned your website.  Any other social media spaces you are spending time with?  Facebook, for example?

You know, it’s interesting.  I think that when I post to Instagram, it will go directly to Facebook, and it’s a generational thing.  I think you have to be everywhere all at once, I guess.  But I will say that I’m probably a little less active on Facebook.  But yes, we have our fan page @expecting411 on Facebook, and that is the portal for all three of our books.

Wonderful.  Any final tips for our listeners, Dr. Brown?

I think one of the things I like to tell families is to give yourself permission.  I think particularly moms, but dads, too.  I think that we put our children first, and they are our highest priority.  And for good reason, but I think that you need to take a step back sometimes and go, you know what, I am a parent.  I’m a spouse.  I’m a sibling, a child.  You have so many roles and you wear so many hats, and I think at some point, a lot of parents kind of become martyrs.  So I always remind people that happy parents make happy babies.  So make sure that you take care of yourself.  Don’t forget about yourself in this equation, and I think that it makes a much more joyous parent and a much better relationship with your child.

Excellent advice!  Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and we’ll have to chat again soon!

My pleasure!  Thank you so much for having me!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Kabrita

Baby 411

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported