August 2024

Anna Rodney shares hospital birth prep tips with Kristin Revere in the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.  Anna is the founder of Birth and Baby University.  Gold Coast Doulas is an affiliate for the online Birth and Baby University class, Preparing for Your Hospital Birth. 

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am so excited to chat with my friend Anna Rodney today.  Anna is the founder and CEO of Chicago Family Doulas and the creator of Birth and Baby University.  Anna is a committed lifelong learner and has spent her entire adult life in the field of education.  After the birth of her first child in 2009, Anna became incredibly committed to learning as much as possible about birth and babies.  She first became a labor and postpartum doula and childbirth educator and has continued to grow her knowledge base and accomplishments.  Anna is a newborn care specialist, lactation educator, Lamaze instructor, Happiest Baby on the Block parent educator, a former HypnoBirth instructor, and faculty for CAPPA.  CAPPA is a doula training organization.  Anna trains labor and postpartum doulas and childbirth educators through CAPPA.  Her commitment to learning is only matched with her commitment to supporting and educating families and their incredible journey to parenthood.

Welcome, Anna!

Thank you so much for having me!  That was such a nice introduction!  I appreciate that!

Of course!  You are so accomplished.  I’ve been a longtime admirer, and it’s been great to reconnect with you again more recently.

Same!  I’ve watched you from afar for many years also and all that you do for your community and the doula community.  It’s always incredible.

There’s so much work to be done.  I feel like it is a passion of mine that just won’t cease.  A lot of people burn out, as you know, in our industry.  The average doula is only doing this work for three years, and you and I have worked hard to make things more sustainable for doulas and trying to advance the career.  So I do appreciate that!

Really exciting and relevant for, again, supporting families and making impact, and our discussion is centered around preparing for your hospital birth.

Absolutely.  I’d say a majority of our families are giving birth at the hospital, and I have created so many classes over the years.  A few years ago I was like, I think it would be very important to have a class helping families prepare for their hospital birth outside of the hospital so it could still remain that unbiased support and help them create real questions and real opinions, not being told how to have a baby at one specific or particular hospital.

Exactly.  I am with you.  I feel like, again, the hospital classes are an excellent option, and they are, as you mentioned, focused on specific hospital policies and procedures and are not as customized.  They’re made to be as inclusive for all patients, but with your course, once you approached me about being an affiliate for your Birth and Baby University classes, I wasn’t sure how we could partner because at Gold Coast, we have so many classes, including HypnoBirthing, and I teach a Comfort Measures for Labor class.  But we don’t have anything specifically to preparing for a hospital birth, and it is so unique.  So I’d love for you to fill in our doula clients and listeners on more of your unique focus in this particular class and what would separate this class from other online classes or even in person out of hospital classes, and then of course the hospital classes themselves.

Yeah, absolutely.  So I touched on it just a little bit, but thinking about having a hospital birth, it’s very different from having a birth at a birth center or a home birth.  And one thing that was always really important to me is that whoever is taking my classes feels like all or almost all of the content of the class applies to them.  And that was something that I’ve always held really close to me because I never want somebody to be sitting in a class feeling like this isn’t about me, or how would I use this.  I’m having a homebirth; how would I use this?  So I really wanted to hone in on our target audience, which honestly, mostly has births at a hospital.  So that was really important to me, that everything in the class applies to them.  As a doula trainer, I feel like I get this really broad lens because I’m training doulas from all over the country.  So I’m training doulas from New York, California, Georgia, everywhere.  And some of them are nurses.  Some of them have been doulas for a very long time.  And I get to learn about all different ways that hospitals operate, what’s allowed and not allowed, and it was really shocking to me to see such a huge difference.  And I love bringing that lens into my trainings, and I thought, oh, wow, this is a lens that I can actually bring into a class.

In Chicago, we offer Preparing for your Hospital Birth in Chicago because I want it to be very specific to the area hospitals.  But it’s not very different from our just Preparing For Your Hospital Birth class, but learning about what protocols and procedures are possibly available in every hospital and what maybe they can ask for, what are common things.  So my take on it is, hey, these things happen all over the place.  What is allowed?  What can you advocate for at your specific hospital?  What sits well with you?

It’s interesting where families come from in terms of what they believe is possible.  And often, they believe what people around them tell them is possible.  And Kristin, as doulas, a lot of possible if they ask.  So that’s a huge platform for this class.  Hey, did you know that you can have skin to skin with your baby?  You can even have that for one hour.  They don’t have to take baby from you and weigh them and measure them.  And did you know that your water might be able to be broken for 12 to 24 hours before even heading in?  All of these really big, important changing possibilities that I think families don’t know to ask for and they’re not being offered.  So it’s really about empowering families to ask questions, to know what’s possible, to know why people make choices that they do, come to terms with what choices they’re comfortable with.  A big part of my classes, always, is about empowering families to feel like they have some control and that it’s up to them and they need to work within their comfort levels.

Exactly.  And your class is also very partner-involved, which is helpful because partners want to help, but they don’t know what to ask for, and that could be anything from a birthing ball to the heat packs at hospitals to understanding all of their options and even the importance of a birth preference sheet or birth plan and how that can help them work with their birth team, whether or not they have a doula.

Yes, absolutely.  Thanks for saying that!  Yes, it’s very much partner involved.  It doesn’t have to be if there is no partner, but a support person involved, as well.  Somebody who understands why choices are being made for the family and by the family and helping to make sure that those happen.  I think building investment in the process and the outcome is a huge part of the class, establishing conversations and boundaries.  I was a special ed teacher before becoming a doula and diving in here, but one of my huge ideas always has been information is just information unless you make it usable.  So I approach every single class I create with that mindset.  Here’s the information, but so what?  Why do you care?  Why do I care about this?  Why might you care?  Maybe you don’t care about it.  But I really want to build that structure around information so that families can dive deeper and connect it to them.  That’s so important to me.

Yes.  And I find with some of my Gold Coast clients, we have partners who are traveling for work or they could be a military family, and the fact that you have this online component makes it a lot easier.  As doulas, we often serve a large territory for our agencies.  For example, at Gold Coast, we serve Northern Michigan and Southwest Michigan for postpartum support, but we aren’t teaching classes in person in those areas.  We have clients that have needs, and a class like this is so helpful.

Yes, absolutely.  I mean, just making it accessible and having families break it down in a way that they can, at home when they’re sitting with their partner, talking about these sorts of things, they could spend an hour talking about why they may choose an unmedicated birth, where in a class – I love in person classes; don’t get me wrong – but time is limited.  So they might have to table the conversation and finish it later in a class, where at home, they can choose what’s the most important to them, watch about it, re-watch about it, talk about it for as long as they want.  So there’s absolutely perks to having an in-person class and perks to doing an at-home class, for sure.

And you did mention being able to rewatch things.  So if you’re taking the class early in pregnancy and it gets closer to your due date and you’ve forgotten some of the material from class that is very important to your goals for your birth, then the fact that you can watch it over, versus an in-person class, like a hospital class, for example, that is one weekend or multiple evenings for a couple hours here and there.  That information, other than the worksheets you’re given, is gone.  It’s not like you can access the instructor readily unless it’s potentially a doula who’s teaching that you happen to be working with who you have access to at all times.

Absolutely.  There’s that, and we do have – like, all of our classes come with a very comprehensive workbook that has questions and activities but also very helpful handouts and information that they can take screenshots of with their phone and pictures of with their phone and save it for the day of or labor or they can just have it out in labor and be like, oh, yeah, we did talk about comfort measures.  Here’s the handout for that.  Or yeah, I do remember we talked about when to head to the hospital.  What was said about that?  What did our doctor say about that?  Oh, yeah, there’s a page about it.  Like, very usable in the moment activities, as well.

Beautiful.  And as you mentioned with some of the comfort measures, the early labor tips, if the partner has forgotten and wants to support, then having screenshots or going through the workbook can be very helpful.   I know with my first birth, I didn’t know what doulas were and took Lamaze and worked with a nurse midwife, but my husband had a workbook from our Lamaze class, and he was looking up different things to try.  And of course, I had doulas the second time around, so he didn’t have to know all of the things.  But I think some of the key points that you cover in this class would be great to jot down notes for discussion with a provider at those very brief prenatal visits, unless of course you’re working with a nurse midwife who may have more time than your OB-GYN.  But also in the prenatal visit or visits with your doula, going through some of the information that is important to your unique goals and questions you may have, having access to that information and using it with your support team or any friends or family who might be supporting you as well.

Absolutely.  I always teach doulas this and guide my doulas on my team in the same capacity, but I say the prenatal visit, if you’re doing one, do that after someone has taken their classes because then they’ll have this great foundation, and you can build from that.  Rather than teaching someone about early labor for 45 minutes in a prenatal visit, it would be great for you to say, hey, bring whatever materials you have from your classes that you took.  Let’s talk about questions that you have.  Write down questions when you’re taking those classes, and I’m happy to answer those and build that into our prenatal visit.  It really can make the doula experience so much richer, and I just feel like families get so much more invested when they’ve taken classes, and that makes them more satisfied with all of it, with their experience with the doula, with their doctor, with their midwife, with the hospital, with their birth, with their baby.  It all intertwines so beautifully if families feel prepared and supported and cared for and like they had a voice.

Exactly.  I agree.  Preparation is important, and not every family wants to invest time or has the ability to afford a class.  There are certainly other options, but I’ve found that people who want a doula and can’t make that work for their budget – if they’re investing in a class, then they’re getting information a doula may share at a prenatal.  They’re able to prepare and feel confident with the support that their partner or other family member or friend is able to give them.

Absolutely.  I do think it makes such a difference, having not only the birthing person, but also their partner know all the why’s for all the things so that in the moment, everything feels so much smoother and less intimidating and scary.  I agree; not everyone will want a doula; not everyone will be able to afford a doula, but taking well-done classes will make a positive impact.

Exactly.  And your class is affordable!  It’s $97, and if our listeners happen to be in West Michigan and are Gold Coast clients, then they can register on our Gold Coast clients, but through your Birth and Baby University, you have a full curriculum of different options class-wise.  So if you’d like to touch on your other options and how our listeners who are outside of Michigan are able to register for one or multiple classes that you offer?

Yeah, absolutely!  Well, anyone listening, whether they’re in California or New York, can absolutely register for your Preparing For Your Hospital Birth class.  But if they do hop on our Birth and Baby University, they’ll find that we have quite a few options on there, and we’re actually always working on building in more classes, so there’s more to come, which I’ll talk about what’s being added soon.  But currently, we have Preparing For Your Hospital Birth, Bringing Home Baby.  Well, let me talk about the birth ones.  Preparing For Your Hospital Birth, Intro to Childbirth, Comfort Measures.  Then the preparing for baby classes include Bringing Home Baby and then a simplified class called Newborn Care 101.  We created this class because we were getting an influx of families who maybe were adopting or having surrogates.  All the things from Bringing Home Baby like postpartum recovery weren’t applying to them, and it’s so important to us that people sit in the class and feel like this is all meaningful information to me.  So we created a really hands-on Newborn Care 101 class where it talks about feeding your baby and bathing your baby and swaddling and troubleshooting tricky situations with your baby, but it’s very baby-focused.

I love that you have two options.

Yes.  You know, I’m really about making sure that it applies to everyone.  We want to support all of our families, and that’s been a great addition.  Then we have a breastfeeding class and like I said, all of our classes come with these really comprehensive workbooks so that families can remember things, write down their answers, and dive deeper into the material itself and also have lots of really helpful handouts and information that they could bring with them.  Or when they’re nursing their baby, they can look through and be like, oh, yeah, this is normal.  I remember from the class, but I also have this great book that reminds me, oh, yeah, feeding my baby every two hours is normal.

Then we have a VBAC class that’s getting put on our website very soon, and we’ll have a twin class coming up really soon.  We’re just in the final stage of recording those and making them look perfect, and those will get on there.  Also, our goal is to have these classes available in multiple languages at some point, but right now, Intro to Childbirth, Preparing For Your Hospital Birth, Bringing Home Baby, and Breastfeeding are also offered in Spanish.

Wonderful!

Yes, it’s unheard of, unfortunately!  That was one of the big reasons I wanted to do that is I don’t think they exist anywhere, and something that I love about having prerecorded classes and materials like this is I can share them for free.  I do share a lot of our Spanish curriculum and classes with hospitals so that they can offer it for free to their patients who need it.  We are sharing a lot with the refugee community, like the Venezuelan refugees, trying to get them access to this information, because as you can imagine, navigating a whole new system in a language that is foreign is really overwhelming.

Definitely.  That is so wonderful.  And once some of your newer classes are up, we will add those to the Gold Coast website, certainly.  We aren’t teaching a VBAC class.  We do have an in-person customized multiples class, but for people who want a self-paced option for twins, I am all about having that, as well.  We will be making updates when you do, then!

Awesome!  And as you can imagine as a project person like I know you are, too, I do have a list of a whole bunch of other classes that I would like to create but haven’t done so yet.

I love it.  And over time, with videos, you can always re-record and update things as, say, hospital policies and procedures change.  There have been so many changes since I became a doula, whether it’s feeding information, safe sleep, car seat safety.  Things are always being updated, especially with technology advancement.

Absolutely.  That is definitely an ongoing thing we do.  We create videos surrounding all these different topics, as well, and we’ll be like, well, now we have a video for that.  We need to embed that.  Now we need to embed this.  So it does make it easy to update classes.  I mean, we do have printed books for our families taking in-person classes, but we update those also often, so it keeps us on our toes, for sure.

Absolutely.  Anna, what other tips do you have for our listeners who are preparing for a hospital birth?

Yeah, I think, like you said earlier, I think taking classes from hospitals can absolutely be helpful, so please don’t think I’m saying never take any classes from hospitals.  But it depends on the area that you live in.  There are some hospitals that offer more comprehensive classes and some hospitals that offer really short lecture-style classes.  So just know what’s offered and know that other options exist out there in terms of classes.  But I think what is super important about taking a class like Preparing For Your Hospital Birth is knowing that even if your hospital doesn’t offer something, that it might be an option somewhere else.  So a really simple example of this is a tub or showers.  Sometimes people are delivering in hospitals and they’re like, oh, you know, my hospital doesn’t even have tubs or they don’t have showers.  They take this class and they’re like, oh, wow, maybe some hospitals do absolutely have these things.  Or we talk about, can you get out of the bed in labor?  I know it seems silly to even say something like that, but to be honest, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had families tell me, oh, the hospital said once my water breaks, I’m not allowed to stand up outside of the bed.  And it’s like, really?  They said that?  That’s not true.  Like, you should have the option.  So I’m hoping that people take this class and feel that they really do have much more control than maybe their friends have told them or that their doctor has mentioned to them.

One big belief that I have is that absolutely different ways to ask questions and some ways you ask a question results in being empowered, and some ways you ask a question results in giving away your power.  And we have a section in the class devoted to this, but a really simple example that I like to share in most of my classes is a family asked their doctor, oh, so when my water breaks, should I head straight to the hospital?  That answer is probably yes in most circumstances, if you ask that question.  If you ask a similar question and say, if my water breaks, I’d like to stay home for as long as possible.  Is that 12 hours?  16 hours?  24 hours?  I’m comfortable monitoring what that looks like and smells like.  I know what to look for.  How long can I stay home for?  That answer is going to be 12, 16, or 24 hours, most of the time.

Right.  It all depends.

Are you asking as a patient, or are you asking like this is my birth and this is what I want?  And you will get a very different answer.  One thing I often talk with families about, and I hear this often – they’ll say something along the lines of, well, I’ll just do whatever my doctor says to do.  And I say, well, that’s great.  That’s great that you trust your doctor and you like them.  One thing to be aware of is that your doctor may not share all of your options or possibilities.  And then I give them that example, and they’re like, I’m going to try it.  And they try it and they’re like, you’re right.  I asked in this way, and it totally changed their response.  It’s true.  In most hospitals, you have some wiggle room with provider practices, and they may or may not be open to changing the way they say something to you if you advocate for yourself.  I’m really excited to have that as an option for families.  If they know the questions to ask and they know how to ask those questions, they will have more possibilities on the table, and that’s so important to me.  Even if it’s not the exact birth that they imagined and hoped for as we know birth is unpredictable, they still will have some power in that, and they usually leave feeling more satisfied and respected and cared for.  I am always heartbroken when I hear a family say, like, I don’t even know what happened.  I don’t know – I don’t know what happened in my birth.  I don’t know how it came to this.  That’s one of those words or phrases that sits with me for a long time.  When a family says that to me, I always feel devastated for them.  And so my hope in all our classes is that we can help families feel like they know what happened.  They know why it happened.  They know how it led to that.  They know choices that they made along the way that were choices rather than things they felt like they had to do.

Exactly.  Birth happening to you, versus making informed decisions. 

Yes.  And I absolutely know that birth is unpredictable and not always as we imagine it to be, but I also know that there could be a lot more power given to the family if they know how to go about receiving that power.

Yes.  Absolutely.  Anything else that we didn’t cover that you’d like to share, Anna?

I would say also that the Preparing For Your Hospital Birth class is not just about decision-making.  It’s absolutely teaching about what happens in labor, comfort measures.  A lot of the other things that are more focused on are absolutely mentioned and talked about in this class, but obviously, in Comfort Measures, that’s the focus and we talk only about comfort measures for the most part.  But in this class, you can’t avoid talking about having birth in a hospital without going over all of these very important details that make for questions and options.  But a lot of knowing what to expect in a hospital and knowing how to navigate it that I think a lot of classes don’t have a focus on.  That’s a big focus in this class.  So absolutely, we’ve gotten great feedback about it from our families.  Families take it and they say, oh, wow, I had no idea that I could ask these questions or that I could ask for any of these things.

Right.  Knowledge is power.  So thank you for bringing these beautiful classes to the world and to Gold Coast clients!  I would love to have you share – let’s start with both of your websites and then get into all of your social media channels that you spend time on.

That’s a lot!  Like you mentioned earlier, I own Chicago Family Doulas, which is obviously a Chicago and suburbs of Chicago based doula agency.  And we have the opportunity to support so many families in that setting.  We have over 200 doulas on our team and a really amazing admin team of about 13 people now.  We have a big reach.  I love the lens that that has given me.  But we have that business, and then I also have, like you mentioned, Birth and Baby University.

I’d say the best way to contact me is at hello@chicagofamilydoulas.com.  That is a very busy email that we check hundreds of times a day, so we definitely get back to families really quick and get back to doulas very quickly on that platform.

Then I have an Anna Rodney Doula Trainer website as well where I provide lots of resources to doulas and doula agency owners and birth workers and perinatal professionals.  That’s another connected business that I have.

Birth and Baby University is where you find your classes if you’re not going to Gold Coast for the hospital class?

Yes, absolutely.  So Birth and Baby University is a big class platform dedicated to expecting families with prerecorded self-paced classes on that platform.

And then what are your favorite social media channels?  As you mentioned, you’re pretty much everywhere, but where do you spend the most time?

Yeah, it’s pretty well divided up, but we’re on Instagram and Facebook with all three of those companies, so Chicago Family Doulas, Birth and Baby University, and Anna Rodney Doula.  And we do have a really fun TikTok channel on Birth and Baby University.  That one is one I fought against for years, but – I have!  I always say the younger, cuter version of me, my cousin Nina, runs that channel.  And I think that’s been going well because she loves doing it, and that was one of the things that I did not love doing.

I am with you on that.  I feel like I’m too old.  We have a TikTok channel, but I just can’t get into video the way that I can with other forms of content like blogging, podcasts, and so on.

Same.  I’m just like – everything I do on TikTok, I’m like, really?  What am I supposed to be doing?  I want to give longwinded information and people don’t really want to hear that.

No, it’s all these short clips, and I’m a talker, so YouTube is definitely more my strong suit when it comes to video.

Yep.  At Birth and Baby University, we have a YouTube channel, also.  We kind of are spread out, but we have lots of amazing followers and contributors to our blogs and our social media also.  So that’s all been fun.

Well, I appreciate the work you’re doing.  Thank you for sharing your wisdom with our listeners and doula clients.  I’ll have to have you on again, Anna!

Yeah, I would love to talk about all the things.  We can absolutely talk about anything birth and baby and agency owning, all of it.

Yes, let’s do it again!  I’ll wait for your next series of classes to come out and we can do a combined podcast on some of your new options!

Awesome!  Thank you so much, Kristin!  I really appreciate it!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Preparing For Your Hospital Birth

Birth and Baby University

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

 

Christi Kmecik shares her journey with loss and how she was drawn to create a beautiful line of grief cards.  She also gives tips on how to support someone who is grieving.

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am excited to chat with my friend Christi Kmecik.  Christi is the owner and founder of Written Hugs Designs.  She’s been married to her husband Gary for over 13 years.  She has three kids, and she started Written Hugs Designs to help people feel more seen, more connected, and less alone.

Welcome, Christi!

Thank you!  Happy to be here!

I would love to learn a bit about your journey, and being that Ask the Doulas supports families from the early family planning stage through the toddler years, I’d love to hear more about how your business helps families with all different types of loss.

Yeah, happy to share.  I’ve been through a lot of different kinds of loss myself in this space.  I’ve been through miscarriages, and it was really through the seasons of miscarriages in my life that I first began to realize how uncomfortable we are as a society with grief, with pain, with loss, especially when it comes to babies or miscarriages or stillbirths.  And my experience led me to circles of other grieving parents who had different stories to mine, but we all had a very similar feel, that society in general doesn’t know how to show up for us, doesn’t know how to make space for us.  And that was kind of the beginning of my desire to help change things.  Written Hugs Designs – I started it in hopes of helping people connect through the hard things when words are hard to find, and acknowledging how holidays are harder when you’re grieving.  I remember the first Christmas after my first miscarriage, and it just felt like the rest of the world had already moved on, and I still couldn’t breathe.  I really found that in sitting in different supportive circles or in my own life experience, that it seemed like everyone else was grieving an announcement and I was grieving a lifetime.  It was a very disconnected experience of grief and perception and reality and all of the things.

So what I do when I design a card is I’m trying to help bridge the gap for people to feel more seen.  I think these cards should exist.  I think some of the these things are hard to say for the average person, and I am somebody who values words very deeply.  Words are sacred to me, and I also empathize a lot with other people and what they’re going through, so I’m happy to create these things in an effort that the person receiving a card from someone feels seen, feels less alone, feels more connected and not isolated and disconnected like I felt through so many things.

That is so lovely.  And I do feel like it’s hard with traditional cards to really express the deep sorrow that we have when our friends or family members experience a loss.  And since you are such an empathetic individual by nature and have personally experienced many types of loss, the meaning behind your cards – and I know when you gifted me a card, it was so beautiful.  You’re an artist, so the images on the cards – you create them yourself, so it’s not just the messaging.  There’s so much beauty in the gift that you give your customers and families alike.

Thank you.  I’m glad you brought up the artwork, too.  That’s definitely something that I keep in mind as I create it, of what something feels like or how I’m feeling at the time as I’m creating it, in an effort to also bridge that gap and an effort to also have some kind of emotional connection even before the card is opened and read.

I love it.  So other types of cards that can be helpful, other than infant loss – give us examples of all of the different cards that you’ve created and how people can find your cards, where they can purchase them.

Yeah, my cards fall into a few categories.  One is straight sympathy where they’re created either with a specific kind of relationship loss in mind, or in general, coming alongside somebody who you know is going through something, going through their grief journey, and you want to come alongside them and say something more than just “My Sympathies.”  Here’s an example of one of those.

As the waves of grief come, remember you are not alone.  Please reach out for support.  Let us lift the burdens that you can share so the weight of it all doesn’t pull you under.  We are here for you and so sorry for you loss.

Beautiful.

So there’s cards like that, that aren’t necessarily about the relationship specifically.  Or I have cards that are about the relationship specifically.  I have cards that are coming for loss of babies, multiple, loss of baby, loss of baby boy, loss of baby girl, loss of daughter, loss of son, among other relationships, as well.  So that’s the straight sympathy cards.

Then I have holiday or celebration sympathy cards.  They acknowledge how this particular celebration or gathering may be harder because you’re also grieving.  Grieving the loss of a child during Christmas or the loss of a loved one during Christmas; grieving a loss over Mother’s Day, or infertility during Mother’s Day, or where Mother’s Day is both joyous and sorrowful; if you happen to have joy as well during that day, but you’re also grieving the loss of a child.  I have a both/and card for Mother’s Day and Father’s Day.

A birthday card for somebody who is also grieving.  Cards like these really acknowledge how the celebration itself, society itself, doesn’t tend to make space for our realities when we’re also grieving, so I decided to make them in hopes that those people don’t feel more disconnected and more “other” and more alone in their reality because we haven’t decided to make space.  I have made space for them in these cards.

I have cards that lean into positive affirmation, into encouragement.  I think these are a really beautiful thing that could be touching to this community.  Cards that say, you are enough.  You matter.  You are loved.  You are brave.  You can do hard things.  These kinds of words of encouragement that we may not be telling ourselves as we’re in the thick of it, but we really need to hear.

And then the last kind of card that I make is something called a keepsake prompt card.  And they are geared more toward the happy celebrations where you want to be intentional in the connection with somebody, so there are prompts inside to fill out.  If it’s a birthday, they say things like, my favorite thing we do together is _____.  If I could give you anything in the whole wide world, I would give you _____.  I hope you always know _____.  It’s a really beautiful way to stop, be intentional, say the things that maybe you haven’t said before, and I find it to be a really touching way to connect with someone instead of just signing your name in another card.

So those are the kinds of cards that I have, and they’re all really geared toward intentional connection, especially when words are hard to find.

So as you described some of even your affirmation cards, I’m thinking of our doula clients who may be on bedrest, who may be celebrating a pregnancy but also grieving a prior loss and they’re in that in between space.  And then just a simple, you are loved, you are enough – all of that can make a difference in a time where it is stressful and you feel like one foot is grieving and then the other part of your body is wanting to celebrate and be joyous, but you’re torn.  It’s like you’re almost split in half.  And you had mentioned multiples.  We work with a lot of twin and triplet clients.  There may be a loss of one of the babies, and then they’re still stuck in too many different emotions, and people don’t know what to say or how to be there for them.  And sometimes people say the wrong things, like “At least you have one healthy baby of the twins.”  When you have these cards or these prompts, it can make a big difference because as you said at the start of our conversation, Christi, words matter, and sometimes those words can sit with you.  Even when I’ve attended births as a doula and hospital staff says something, like again, “At least you have a healthy baby,” or some of those things that can really hurt.  “You should be thankful even though you had a traumatic birth or didn’t get what you wanted.”  Even processing birth trauma, it can be helpful to have a card or a friend listen and really feel like you’ve been heard.

Absolutely.  Yeah, I think you hit it right on the head with your examples.  “At least” – starting the sentence that is spoken to somebody who is grieving, is going to be followed with some kind of invalidation, some kind of taking permission away to feel what they’re feeling.  And I’ve found that it does the opposite.  It doesn’t bring comfort to the griever.  It makes them feel more unseen.  It makes them feel more misunderstood, and it could lead to feeling like, what’s wrong with me?  Why can’t I just be happy?  And the answer is, because you’re grieving.  It’s normal.  It’s okay to grieve that you had a traumatic birth.  It’s okay to do that because it’s within us and it needs to come out.  And when we try to ignore it and shove it down, it will come out sideways.  What a gift of a doula to be able to walk someone through permission to grieve in that space.  Sometimes we are so vulnerable when we are pregnant, expecting, going through birth, having just had birth, whatever step along the way we are, and having a doula that gives us permission to grieve is really powerful.  It’s really powerful.  I know for me, I’ve had many people in my life come alongside me and simply give me permission to grieve, and I’m so grateful for them because I didn’t know I could do that.  I didn’t know I could do that within my own self, but the fact that they did it for me – now I know I can do that.  But at the time, I really needed that support from somebody else, someone outside myself, to understand what it was.  It’s grief.  Understand it’s not wrong.  It simply is, and you have permission to feel it and move through it.  It’s just a really powerful thing that you can give to people.

It really is.  And you mentioned different milestones, like holidays or the anniversary of what would have been the birthday for baby.  What are times that our audience, who may not have personally suffered loss, can really keep in mind when trying to be sensitive, and if they’re thinking of sending a card, what would be appropriate?  You had mentioned Christmas or Mother’s Day. 

I think if they celebrate Christmas, that’s a big one.  For many people who celebrate Christmas, it’s got so many personal and societal expectations of how it’s happy and bringing everyone together, and then you have all these expectations that you have for what it will look like with the baby that you’re expecting.  When it doesn’t end up happening, if you lose your baby, if you miscarry like I did, this Christmas doesn’t look the way it should because I should have been eight months pregnant now, or the gifts we would have been given would have been all about baby.  There’s just so many things about it that feel wrong to you, but you also feel like you can’t talk about it because it feels like everyone else has moved on.  Acknowledging that with a card that simply says, it may feel like the world has moved on, but I want you to know that you matter and you’re not alone and you are seen – it’s a gift that will help them release the feeling of being alone.

The other one that I think is really powerful, I have cards for the month anniversary, acknowledging it.  My miscarriage of twins happened in July, so acknowledging how July itself is harder because there are things that my body remembers about this month that I can’t just ignore.  And if I’m going through it, to have someone else acknowledge that, hey, I just want you to know that I’m thinking about you, and I understand how July could be harder for you, and I want you to know that you matter to me – that can be a really beautiful gift for them, as well.

Definitely.  Thank you for sharing that.  So for our listeners who are personally going through loss, what tips do you have for them?

I would say that if you haven’t already experienced it, it can feel shocking that people’s reactions, in my experience, fall into really three main categories.  One is where somebody shows up in a very meaningful way that feels like they’re present, that feels like they’re listening and that they really are feeling the thing with you.

The other is, people are really uncomfortable with it, and in an effort to try to ease your suffering, will say something like, “At least ______.”  “At least you have a healthy baby.”  “At least you weren’t further along.”  Whatever it is.  I would encourage you to understand that although their intent is to not hurt you, that it’s okay to recognize that what they said hurt and felt invalidating, and it’s okay to grieve that somebody just did that to you.

The third thing that I’ve found is people don’t know what to say.  They know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of the invalidating comments.  They don’t want to do that, and they also are so afraid that whatever they say will inadvertently hurt you that they simply don’t acknowledge it at all.  And what I would encourage you to recognize in that moment is that, again, their intent is to not hurt you, but their impact, that I have felt, is that they are putting the weight of their discomfort on you to pretend like your reality isn’t what it is.  Understand that that is something to grieve.  It is okay to grieve when somebody does that.  It’s okay to acknowledge that was not their intent.  And the thing that I’ve found the most shocking about those three different categories of people is that it does not matter how close or not close a relationship is to you.   You will have people who fall into all three categories across the board.  You will have complete strangers who you don’t know show up for you in the most meaningful way if they find out that’s what happened.  You will have people who may be your best friend of a lifetime who say the invalidating thing, or a family member say nothing or not acknowledge it.  And that to me was the most shocking.  I kind of assumed that the closer to me, the more meaningful the response and the further away, the more invalidating, and that’s just not what I experienced.

So if you are grieving, I would just tell you that if that’s what you’re experiencing, you’re not alone.  I’ve experienced it most.  Most people I’ve talked to have experienced it as well, and your feeling of people’s lack of capacity to show up for you is valid.  I hope you can also hold on to their intent, which is to not hurt you.

Having said that, I do want to acknowledge that there are malicious people.  There are malicious people who may say something with intent to hurt you.  That’s not what I mean.  If there is somebody in your life who, knowing your loss, says something with intent to hurt you, they are not a safe person.  If you’re experiencing that, I would strongly recommend you talk to your doula or a therapist and get some external help to make sense of what’s happening because unfortunately, there are people who do want to cause harm.  I just want to acknowledge that it’s different than the first three that I mentioned.

That makes complete sense, and so true.  So how can our listeners find your cards and connect with you personally, Christi?

My cards are all on my website, Written Hugs Designs.  And all of my variations that I have on hand are listed there.  I do have the loss of babies, loss of baby, baby boy, baby girl – those are all coming and will be up shortly, so check back in a couple of weeks.  They are on order, so they are coming.  And I’m also on Instagram and Facebook @writtenhugsdesigns.  You can find me there!

Thank you so much, Christi!  I know I’ll be ordering more of your cards myself.

Thank you, Kristin!  I appreciate you inviting me on, and thank you so much for doing this really important work and helping people learn how to connect through loss in this way.

Thank you!  I appreciate the work you’re doing!

IMPORTANT LINKS

Written Hugs

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

 

Kristin Revere and Kelly Cox discuss milk sharing and her new platform called Share the Drop on the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.  

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to chat with Kelly Cox today.  Kelly is a registered prenatal yoga teacher, a birth doula, a former mental health therapist, and a breast cancer survivor.  Her experience in working with pregnant and new mothers for 15-plus years led her to create Share the Drop.

Welcome, Kelly!

Thank you for having me!  I’m so excited to talk!

Yes, I would love to hear more about your story!  Obviously, you’ve worked in the prenatal and postnatal phase for quite some time, but to create an app and get into the tech space is a much different venture than working in this service business.

Absolutely.  I am the least tech-savvy human you may ever meet.  My friends laugh that I’m in this tech space, but I just had this idea, and I couldn’t stop thinking about it, so here I am.

I love it!  It’s all about solving problems.  So tell us a bit more about the informal breastmilk sharing concept and how you’re able to connect donors to families in need virtually.

Well, I operated a pre- and postnatal yoga studio here in Charlottesville, Virginia, for about ten years.  We closed during COVID.  And I was always working with prenatal clients and doula clients with kind of a more therapeutic hat on, of thinking about what they were going through, trials and tribulations of getting pregnant, staying pregnant, preparing for how everything in life was about to change, but really wanted to think more about mental health-wise, how were they doing?

And it wasn’t until I really started working with doula clients and started paying attention to how the moms were returning to the studio that it became very clear to me the stress and anxiety wrapped around how you feed your infants.

100%.  Totally agree.

I think we spend so much time getting pregnant, and then we worry about how we’re going to get the baby out, and there’s very little prep for what actually happens after.

Yeah, and we went through a formula shortage, so people who needed to supplement or were unable to breastfeed were struggling and having to order European formula.  This obviously was all during that time of your big idea to create this platform.

Yes.  So I was constantly at the studio being bombarded with women who said, hey, I have so much milk.  I don’t know what to do with it.  And then other women were just scrambling and saying I either can’t produce enough, I have to go back to work, I have a medical issue, and how do I get breastmilk?  And so for years and years, I sent people to Facebook groups, and always they came back with the same response, that it’s so clunky.  It takes time.  Once you get into a group and get accepted, it was all forum-based posts, so someone might post at 6:00 in the morning, you have 100 ounces to give, and then someone else is posting right on top of that.  And so they just said as new moms, we don’t have the time to do this.  So I just was personally introducing women in town.

Beautiful.

This happened for years and years at the studio, and I always thought, there should be another way.  It’s a long story, but I actually came up with this idea because one night I was emailing two women.  One had milk to give; one needed milk.  And I knew they lived a couple miles away, so I was introducing them via email, and my phone went off with a notification from Bumble saying, oh, I had a match.  And it was like this life-changing moment.  I was thinking, oh, my gosh.  If I can go onto an app and create my ideal mate and then the algorithm works like it does and matches me with this perfect mate ten miles away, I thought, okay, this has to happen.  So it just sat in my head, and I was really busy.  I had a studio and I was a doula and I was doing all these things.  And so when we closed during COVID, the voice wouldn’t stop.  I was like, I have to do this.  And so because the process is so clunky on these forum-based groups, I really wanted it to be in real time.  So if you go onto Share the Drop, either a donor or a recipient just goes on and creates an account, and then we use zip codes.  That’s one of the main things you put into the account because my idea is not find a donor two states away, have them pack up the milk, pay for shipping, have to wait for it.  Let’s not only meet someone in your own community who might have extra milk but also meet your neighbors.  We used to raise babies together in community with aunties and grannies and sisters, and that just doesn’t happen as much anymore.  The biggest thing that happened after a decade of owning the studio was –  like, prenatal yoga is great.  Postnatal yoga is great.  I can do that kind of work in my sleep.  But it was really the moms who would meet on their mats, newly pregnant or new to motherhood, and then they would keep coming back and sitting next to each other, and then I would see them having coffee after.  This community I live in is not that big, so now I see them three kids later.  They’re still hanging out with the same moms that they met in a yoga class.  And I realize it’s the community aspect that parents really, really need and can benefit from.

100%.  And certainly not every community has a milk bank.  We have one about an hour away from Grand Rapids, but there are so many restrictions.  It’s basically NICU babies and the most need.  So not everyone qualifies.  And then there are restrictions as far as donating, so as you mentioned, there are all of these Facebook groups, and before I found your app, in researching for our new book, Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby, I really only was referring to either the milk bank or some of those Facebook groups to our doula clients.

Yes.  I think there’s 33 milk banks in the country.  So it’s rare that someone is going to live very close.  First of all, the process to get approved for those formal milk banks can take 30 to 45 days, and then like you said, not everyone can donate.  And so my idea of peer to peer milk sharing is really based on a lot of what Eats On Feets has been doing for a lot of years.  I believe that if there’s a woman who has excess production and more than her baby could ever consume and that baby is gaining weight and meeting developmental milestones, that would be the perfect option for people who can’t produce breast milk, can’t find formula on the shelves, can’t afford formula.  I just think that this whole conversation around breast is best, fed is best, is causing a lot of anxiety and feelings of inadequacy if you can’t produce enough.  And there are people in your community who have excess, and if you do this safely – we talk a lot about dating your donor.  It’s the exact same questions you would ask if you were on a dating site.  What is your lifestyle?  We have filters on there for do you drink caffeine, do you drink alcohol, do you take prescription medication.  Are you allergic to anything?  We want to know what’s in the milk.  And then it’s all about recipients making good choices for themselves.

As a doula, I’m not of the mindset that there’s only one way to have a baby.  I always tell my clients, this is your birth, your body.  Do all the research you can, and then you can make the best informed decisions on what you want to do during birth.  And I think it should be the same thing if you’re going to use someone’s milk.

Yes.  So it’s basically a trust.  You’re having people fill out the forms, but you’re not requiring blood work, for example.  They’re just listing if they take medication or if they’re drinking coffee and so on?

Yes.  And then we do ask donors when they’re onboarding – we say, are you willing to share any recent medical lab work with a recipient if asked?  Clearly, we’re not uploading that to the app because of HIPAA, but if they would, we put a little medical icon on their badge, so that’s one more safety feature that recipients know, hey, this woman is willing to share her recent lab work, which is great.

That is.  That’s a big relief for some families who want that information.

Absolutely.  The part about using zip codes is not only can you meet your neighbors, but you can vet.  You can say, oh, Kristin, did you use a doula?  Who’s your pediatrician?  To get to know who you’re talking to, but then to say, do we have any friends in common?  And then vet them that way.  We talk about meeting in a safe place, meet during the day, when it’s light out.  Meet in a public place.  I have a neonatologist on my board of advisors, and he said in the very beginning, the questions you should ask someone before you take their milk are the same questions you should ask someone before you sleep with them for the first time.

Yeah, makes sense!

It’s totally the exact same thing.  I get a lot of feedback of, oh, this is gross; why would I drink someone else’s milk?  And I just kind of sit back and say, well, we drink cow milk and we drink sheep milk.  It is the perfect food.  If you can breastfeed, fantastic.  If you’re an exclusive pumper, great.  If you find a formula that works, great.  I don’t think there should be any shame no matter how you feed.  And I think informal milk sharing should be in the conversation.

I agree.  And it’s also, I have found in working as a doula, that some of our families experience loss and want to donate milk in that way.  Do you have stories of, as a way of grieving, where families are longing to share breast milk to help other families in need?

Yes.  Actually, I had a client at my yoga studio, and it was after her loss that I really started to think more about this app.  She was pregnant with her second.  At 38 weeks, she delivered a baby still.  And it was very important to her that she honor that life, and so I helped connect her to a local woman who was pregnant with her fourth baby.  Just diagnosed with breast cancer and knew she had to have a mastectomy right after delivery.  So that woman, the grieving mother, pumped for six months and delivered it to this other mother in need, and then the rest, gave to our milk bank her in Norfolk, Virginia.  This woman is so sweet.  I see her all the time, and we always talk about what a healing process that was for her.

It really can be.  That’s beautiful to have that story as part of the journey in starting Share the Drop and that it can certainly, with grieving, benefit so many other families and is a way to give back in such a personal way.

Yes.  I have users who have reached out and said, you know, my first baby was in the NICU.  We received donor milk.  It made such a difference, and that’s why I want to give my excess now.

I love it. 

I remember in the beginning of this, looking for investors and talking to some people, and I was in a room with a group of men, and one of them said, why wouldn’t you pay donors for milk?  And why would someone just do this out of the goodness of their heart?  And I couldn’t think of anything to say other than that women are amazing.  We’re the healers.  We’re the ones who are going to save the world.  So I don’t see where the question is.

Right.  But I’m sure that as an investor, they’re looking at the potential income that paying for the milk could help grow your business, certainly, and help grow their investment in your business.

They did invest in me.  And they’ve been fantastic cheerleaders.  One of the biggest ways we keep this safe is we do not pay donors for milk.  I understand the time and effort that goes into pumping and storing and donating.  However, I think when you open the door to monetizing a human liquid, you risk opening the doors for fraudulent behavior.  You can water down anything, sell it as milk, and this is when babies get sick.  So the app is free for anyone to create an account.  Donors always use it for free.  Recipients create an account for free, and then you can see who’s in your feed, and you never have to pay.  There’s a $9.99 a month subscription fee.  You never have to pay that until you find someone you want to message, and then that’s unlimited.  I waive that fee if they’re WIC or SNAP eligible.  I want no barriers to entrance whatsoever.  And then I also have a giving program where anyone can go onto the website and purchase a subscription to give out.  And I have had some people go on there and just say, hey, I got donor milk years ago.  I’d like to just feed it forward.  I just want it to be accessible.

As far as apps, it would be on the Google Play store?  How else can our listeners find Share the Drop?

We are on the Google Play store.  We are not on Apple.  I spent months and months rewriting code, trying to resubmit.  They have finally come back and said that this is not a concept the Apple store condones.  There is an app on their platform that does exactly this; however, they do pay donors for milk.  So at that point, I was not interested in fighting with Apple, and so I pivoted, and I made a web app.  So at our website, Share the Drop, you can create an account right there.

For me, running a business, this means I don’t have to give Apple 30% of my proceeds.  But users can use it on a computer.  You don’t have to have a smartphone.  You can use it on a computer at the library.  It actually makes me more inclusive.  It did sting a little bit not to be on the app store.  You think you’re going to build this app and of course it’s in all the big stores, and the more I pulled away from it, I realized, I own the web app.  It works just as fine.  It works just as savvy.  You can get push notifications.  And so yes, it is on Google Play, but anyone else can just go directly to the website and create an account.

Yes, and I agree with you that it’s so much more accessible.  Not everyone has a mobile phone that has data, internet, and so on.  As you mentioned, being able to go to the library and log in is very helpful.

So what’s next for Share the Drop?

It’s built.  It’s running well.  My biggest hurdle right now is just knowledge that it’s out there.  So that’s why I reach out to everyone to tell them about this.  I think if it’s an option, even if families need it in the very beginning until their milk supply comes in, it could be a short term option.  It could be a long term option.  But I really just need folks to know that it’s available.  So if you are on Facebook groups sharing and you’re finding that that’s cumbersome and takes too much time, go create an account.  It’s free to create an account and to look, so it’s really just spreading the word, which is a huge undertaking.  I’ve been working in my community for 15-plus years marketing a studio and marketing my doula services, but I’ve never had to take it to this national level.  And so yeah, just spreading the word as far and wide as we can.

I love it.  So Kelly, what kind of insight do you have as far as the states that you’re in and cities?  Where are you most located?  Would it be in your home state, or what are you finding as far as data?

Yeah, so most of our users are from the central Virginia area where I am, so Richland, DC.  We have quite a few users in DC.  I’ve been able to build some great social media partnerships.  Doula agencies in Boston and Chicago and Atlanta, so those are our top markets.  However, we’re available nationwide, so I’ve just been asking users – I have users email me and say, hey, I’m done donating.  Can you help me create my account?  And I’m always like, absolutely, but tell your neighbors who are having babies.  Tell anyone you know with excess.  Really spreading the word like that.  I mean, advertising is one thing, but when you deal with moms, you quickly realize that moms just talk about everything all day long.

They sure do, yes.

What they’re eating, what they’re drinking, what they’re buying, what their babies are doing, and so trying to, little by little, build this little army of moms who will continue to spread the word.

That’s what it’s all about.  And then as you know, being a fellow doula, part of our role is to give our clients trusted resources and recommendations, just like your app.  And that is, again, one of the most common needs for families is milk sharing, where to donate.  And so you’re solving so many problems and still keeping it local and not having to deal with shipping out of state.  As you mentioned before, even having relationships or seeing the person that you’re donating to can make a big impact.

Yes, absolutely.  I really believe that what we’re missing out most in our current world and our society is community.  We’re a lot more transient.  If you can just meet your neighbors, talk to them more, no matter what stage of life you’re in, and be active in your community.  Understand who the helpers are.  I think we can solve a lot of what’s plaguing families right now.  Especially coming out of COVID.  I realize it’s been a while, but it still feels like we’re in it in some ways.  It was the communities and the neighbor partnerships that really, I think, solidified families and took care of them during that time.

Agreed.  Yeah, it does feel like things have not fully gone back to pre-pandemic times, and there’s still more isolation.  You feel like there is less community, and a lot of businesses that did support prenatal and postnatal moms had to close during the pandemic.  Some are opening back up, but there is that missing link since the pandemic.

Yeah, and I see a lot of prenatal offerings coming back, but I don’t see as much as postnatal as I think there should be.  You know, I always tell yoga clients and doula clients while they’re pregnant, do your research about pregnancy and labor, but really, really focus on breastfeeding.  Take a breastfeeding class if you can.  Go sit in on a Le Leche League meeting.  Have extending family members taken an online breastfeeding class so that they can understand more and be supportive.  If we put more steady time into what’s really going to happen that first year, I think new moms would fare a lot better.

Agreed.  So Kelly, for our listeners who are pre-conception or early in pregnancy, what are the benefits of donating breastmilk?  The second part of that question is, what are the benefits of receiving donated breastmilk?

Every woman I have ever met with excess breastmilk understands how important it is and what a vital nutrient it is.  I have never had anyone say, hey, can you help me sell this?  They’re always like, this has done so well for my child.  I can’t believe I’m making so much.  Can you help me find someone?  I mean, I think any woman helping another woman – that’s the biggest benefit.  Years ago, when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I had a lot of women come to me, other survivors, saying how can I get milk, but a lot of other women saying, hey, I understand.  This has opened my eyes to the fact that, of course, a breast cancer survivor, if she had a mastectomy, couldn’t feed.  Can you please help me find a survivor?  Absolutely.  The benefits of donating are really altruistic.  Helping your neighbor.  I’m a big fan of karma.  I think everything comes back.  Any time I’ve been able to help someone, it’s made me feel better about my life.

For a recipient, if you just are having trouble feeding for any reason but you believe that breastmilk is the best option for your infant and you don’t want formula or you can’t find formula – it’s out there and it’s safe.  It’s the perfect food.  It has the perfect blend of carbohydrates, proteins, fats.  We have huge companies trying to replicate breastmilk because they know how good it is.  So if you choose it and that’s what you want for your infant, great.  Here’s an option to get it.  I do have people asking about safety.  We talk about safety measures and how to meet your donor and all these questions to ask, but if you’re really worried, you can buy testing strips for alcohol.  My friend Dr. Trill over at Free to Feed has just come out with a new testing strip that will actually test for certain things.  If you know your baby has some allergens, it can test milk that you get to see if there’s any gluten in the milk or dairy.

And then last but not least, you can do home pasteurization, which is very simple.  It’s a very vital food that you can get from a neighbor.  But what if you can’t find your formula?  We just had another formula recall, I think, three weeks ago.  Some formulas have been difficult to find.  And families are struggling financially, so you think about a $9.99 a month fee, as our admin fee.  It’s so much cheaper than buying formula.

It is, no doubt.

And if there’s excess out there, I think it should go to infants in need and take that financial piece out of it.  We talk about being commerce free.  I do tell users, if you find a trusted donor and they’re giving you milk on a regular basis, buy them new storage bags.  Replenish that, so that they’re not spending their own money on that.  But I think we can set the standard for helping your neighbor a lot more than we do.

We can.  Totally agree.  So any final tips for our listeners, Kelly?

Just go onto our website.  You can read about us.  Anyone, anytime, can email me.  It’s kelly@sharethedrop.com.  Ask me any questions.  Give me feedback.  I’ve got pretty thick skin.  Realize that we don’t have huge users in every city, and so it might be a while before you find people in your community, but you can create an account and then keep signing on and seeing what’s there.  But just talk to people about their experiences.  Did you ever donate milk?  Have you ever received milk?  Listen to what that experience was like.

Agreed, yes.  It certainly helps to have personal experience.  Ask your friends.  Having your personal testimonials and stories that you shared today is also helpful.  If you just venture on a site and don’t have the background information that you shared, it can be a little overwhelming and scary.

Yes, absolutely.  It’s all about the more you know.  So read, ask questions.  I’m a big fan of any sort of informational support groups, whether that’s about getting pregnant, delivery, the first three months.  Go into your community and see who else is talking about these things because the knowledge will help in every aspect of parenting.

Agreed.  Well, thank you so much for sharing your story, Kelly.  I so appreciate the work you’re doing.

Thank you so much!  Thanks for having me on today.

IMPORTANT LINKS

Share the Drop

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

Kristin Revere and Dr. Lora Grasso discusses small changes that can help you maintain your health after having a baby in the latest episode of Ask the Doulas.  Dr. Grasso is the founder of APEX Coaching.

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am so excited to chat with my friend, Dr. Lora Grasso.  She has an extensive background in health and education, and our topic today is focused on health as a new mom and small changes that can be made to stay on top of your health at such a challenging time, whether this is your first baby or your fifth.  Welcome, Dr. Lora Grasso!

Hi!  It’s so nice to be here, Kristin!  Thanks for having me!

Yes!  I’m excited to get into it!  And again, your background is so extensive.  I figured it’d be better for you to really walk us through your journey in health and education and how it led you to focusing on supporting new moms with health coaching.

Sure thing.  So I started off – I was always in health.  My entire professional career, I was in health and education.  And I started off with getting my bachelor’s degree in health and physical education.  I taught in public education for a little over a decade until I had my wonderful twins, who are now eight years old.   In the process, I also got my master’s degree in exercise science, and I, of course, tend to take on the world, and I worked on my doctoral degree right as I was having my newborn twins.

That really was a wakeup call to this whole mothering thing and being able to do it all.  Then when I went back into the workforce, I went into virtual education.  I could be home with my kids and be there for them and have my own thing in education.  I quickly worked my way up to assistant director at that company.  I really loved it.  And then I just went on to find an opportunity teaching at an elementary school of my children, and that just did not work out for me.  It was not for me.  The schedule was tough with being basically a single mom at that point.

And if a kid is sick, it’s not like you can call off work.  So much to navigate.  Although the thought, obviously, was good, to be in their own school.

I always tossed around the idea of coaching because I’ve been trained as a personal trainer.  I have a certification in personal training and a health coach certification, both of those since around 2001 to 2004.  I’ve trained all age groups, all capacities, all skill levels.  I really love that.  I’ve always been involved in the exercise arena.  I’ve also competed in figure competitions, which is another thing a lot of people don’t know about me, but it’s a branch of body building.  That taught me a lot about nutrition, really.  That gave me a lot of my background in that.  And I said, why not now?  I always wanted to do health coaching.  So why not now, and I left that job and decided to go out on my own and start my own health coaching because I knew mothers needed it.  I know we always put ourselves last.  I know we need all the help we can get, and just that support, too, of each other.  We’re all going through this.  We’re there to help each other.  What can I do to make that whole process easier and simpler and just make your everyday life better and not let your health go by the wayside because you’re raising little ones?

Exactly.  And your business, APEX Coaching with Lora, is so focused on moms and women, based on your own personal experience, so I would love to get into some tips for our listeners and how to, again, make some actionable changes, what it might look like to work with a coach like yourself.  You’re not the typical health coach, with such an extensive background.  So I’d love to hear more about how you can be helpful and what moms can do.

Right.  Well, one of the biggest things here is there’s no one size fits all, and there’s no fast fix.  We all want that.  We all want that instant gratification.  Sure, it feels great, but it’s not going to stick with you for life.  So if you cannot look at a health change or a plan and say that you cannot stick with this for your lifetime, or a very long time, then it’s not the plan for you.  And everyone is different.  The programs that I build are very comprehensive.  You can’t just look at what you eat and how you move.  There’s much more to it than that.  Your daily behaviors, handling your everyday stress, your habits.  Sleep is a huge one, and I’ll talk about that more with new mothers because that impacts every aspect of your health: mental, physical, social.

Absolutely.  That is what we stress as postpartum doulas and sleep consultants.  It can affect so much more than mental health.  I mean, it compounds.  So I love that you focus on that in your plans, as well.

Yes.  And there are lots of little tricks you can do.  That’s my philosophy, too, that if you want to sustain change, if you want something you can stick with, it can’t be this huge all-encompassing, overwhelming change, like a lot of these fads are.  It has to be small, sustainable ones.  So what I do is I look at what you like, what would stick with your schedule, how can it fit with your life, not making your life fit to it, but how can it fit in your life.  So sleep, for example.  We know that first year, we try as hard as we can, but we’re not going to get as much sleep as we want.  It’s very baby-focused, that first year, at least.  And we do the best to get it in where we can.  But there are other tricks, too, like using light is very important for maintaining your circadian rhythms and getting more quality sleep, even if you’re not getting quantity.  There’s a lot that you can do to help with quality.  Like that first sunlight and sunset – there’s a lower angle light that comes in.  If you get that early light and the evening light, it helps to set your rhythms, which help you get better quality sleep.  When you sleep, ensuring that it’s cold, it’s dark, it’s quiet.  Those are other things.  Granted, you could have a crying baby.  We all know that that’s going to happen.  We all know it’s not realistic to think we’re going to have the perfect sleeping environment.  But when you do get sleep, doing that, if you need to take a midday nap, have blackout curtains.  If you can, have someone else watch the baby so you can be in a quiet, dark, cooler place.  That’s going to make you feel better.

I always say don’t make any big decisions when you’re sleep deprived because it affects you so drastically.  I mean, I’ve been there.  I know how it feels.  I know how those days can seem way worse when you don’t have that sleep.

Especially with twins.  That’s a whole different experience, navigating feeding two, and different sleep schedules, trying to get them on the same page as far as all of their activities throughout the day and night.  I give you a lot of credit!

Absolutely.  But any new mother – like you said, after the fifth child, even though you have the experience, it’s never a breeze, and every child is different.  We know there’s some children who are going to be more colicky and more difficult to handle.  Think about what works with them, too.  You want them on as much of a schedule as you can.  Right?  You want to do that for yourself, too.  Going back to circadian rhythms and trying to get quality sleep – things you do throughout the day, like when you eat, when you move, any type of movement.  It doesn’t have to be an extreme, regimented exercise routine.  Just walking.  Doing that at consistent times every day helps set that rhythm as well.

Yes.  I love that.  So Lora, as far as your typical coaching client, are their concerns more about getting back to their old size they had before having kids, or is it more in getting energy?  What are the top concerns?  Is it weight or having a better diet or energy? 

I think the biggest ones are fatigue and your pre-baby body, which really, we have to learn to love and accept who we are after children because there’s just no way that you’re going to be exactly what you are and who were before you had kids.  We think about physically, we’re not the same.  My feet grew!  That’s one thing.  I have extra skin.  Those are things that are just there.  But you’re also – you are different inside.  You know how life-changing having a child is, and we have to learn to accept that.  We have to learn to accept the way our bodies are.  But with that said, there are definitely things that we can do to make us feel more confident and stronger and gain more energy because the most common complaint you hear about motherhood is I’m tired.  I’m just tired.  That creates that cycle, too, because you’re too tired to feel like you can exercise, but in the end, exercising is going to give you energy.  So it’s hard to get past that, and the biggest thing is building habits.  There’s a great book by James Clear called Atomic Habits.  I highly recommend a read for anyone out there.

I love that book, as well.

So good!  One of the examples I like to explain that he gives in the book is that when he’s trying to get someone to go to the gym, and he said, just go every day for five minutes.  You probably think, what’s that going to do for me?  What you’re doing in the beginning is strictly setting the habit.  Get into the habit and change the identity and everything else is going to follow.  Once you start doing that, you’re like, I am the person who exercises regularly.  And you start to do it more.  So the idea is don’t bite off more than you can chew.  Even something as simple as, you want to meditate every day.  Just start by getting your mat out everyday and then go from there.  Especially as mothers with very limited time – and I always take that into account when I’m working with clients – we need to know what our schedule is, what’s realistic.  If you are absolutely not a morning person, morning workouts are not going to be for you.  You’re setting yourself up for failure if you’re like, every day I’m going to get up at 4:00 a.m. and I’m going to exercise.  You just have to do what’s realistic and what’s going to work for you, and you can always go up from there.  You can always take more baby steps – since we’re talking about babies, right?  It’s about being realistic and taking those small steps that you can sustain, that you can stick with.

I love it.  And how do you factor in breastfeeding or pumping moms as far as their goals and their diet and ability to have the time to even work out when you’re feeding a lot more frequently than using formula?

Well, a couple of things with that.  I think a lot of us get stuck in what it means to work out or exercise, and it doesn’t have to be this, going to the gym, doing this many sets and reps, or doing this YouTube workout.  Really, put it in your mind as movement, especially that first year.  Get out and walk your baby.  Take them on a daily walk.  Move more.  When you’re parking somewhere, parking further away.  Just getting strictly more movement in.  And one thing, a misnomer I’d like to clear up with breastfeeding: you do need more calories, right?  You need 350 to 500 more calories.  But you also need to keep in mind what that is because I think a lot of people think – and that’s when their weight can get carried away – that they need to eat a lot more to sustain this.  But in reality, up to 500 calories is three cups of popcorn.  It’s two slices of cheese on toast.  It’s one and a half bagels with cream cheese.  It’s really, when you think about it, not that much.  So being careful with that, and I’m not a big proponent of calorie counting.  I do it in the beginning with a lot of my clients just to see kind of where we are, and it’s usually a wakeup call to see, oh, I didn’t realize it was that much.  But again, do you want to count calories for the rest of your life?

Obviously not!

Right!  So realistically, we just need to do an assessment at first, and then realize what we can sustain and what makes sense as far as the amount to make up for what we’re doing, whether that’s breastfeeding, whether that’s working out, whether that’s training for something.  I think people get a little carried away, and people do this, too, when they’re pregnant with cravings.  Like, I need to eat so much more for the baby.  I need to eat so much more.  You definitely don’t want to deprive your baby, but you also don’t want to be misled on what you’re intaking.  It’s setting yourself up for something that’s hard to rebound from.

That makes perfect sense.  And hydration, obviously, is key, especially if you are pumping or breastfeeding and having water throughout the day is so important.

Absolutely.  Hydration is huge.  There’s actually a link between your amount of sleep and hydration, so especially when you’re not sleeping as much, you need to drink even more.  It will be more trips to the bathroom, but very important as far as your health.

Exactly.  Thank you for that!  What are your other tips for small changes that mom can make in that first year?

I think a support system is huge, as well, if you can have accountability and support with other moms.  There’s great Facebook groups.  I have a Facebook group I started.  I’m going to put it out there – anyone is welcome to join.  It’s called Momentum Wellness Lounge.  There’s support in there.  There’s tips in there.  I think another thing to keep in mind with those small things is your mental health.  Having time for you – and everyone is like, I don’t have time!  It comes down to priorities.  You have to make time for you, and I’m not saying 20 minutes, even.  I’m saying 5 minutes.  Everyone can take 5 minutes out of their day to step away, to read for 5 minutes.  Just lay there and do nothing for 5 minutes.  Once again, it’s the little things, and that’s something that you can look forward to everyday, as well, when you’re in the chaotic realm of motherhood.  That’s so important with your mental health.  Writing things out, too, getting things off your mind and onto paper helps a lot of people.

100% agree.  Yeah, we talk about writing out the birth story and doing some journaling and meditating.  Taking that time, and I know there’s always that temptation, if baby is sleeping, to get on social media or answer some emails, but taking, as you mentioned, 5 or 10 minutes for yourself can change your entire day.

Yes, and I also say with social media, just be very careful.  I mean, it’s the perfect storm for depression, right, because you’re sleep deprived, which every single mental illness is linked to sleep in some way.  So you’re already sleep deprived.  Your world is around this baby.  You have this whole new identity that you’re still trying to learn about yourself.  And then you’re going on social media, where people are depicting their best lives.  People are going on vacations.  People are having a blast.  So it can be great for support – like go to some of those mom groups and vent or get advice – but also just be careful and just know everyone is putting out their best selves.  There’s a lot of people on there who are dealing with the same stuff that you are.

Right, and I do like that there’s more vulnerability now on social media, and people are showing the messy house or talking about mental health struggles.  But there’s still so much of that Pinterest perfect and Instagram lifestyle photos that are hard to keep up with.  I really like your tips of finding a community, like your community where you have moms going through the same things at the same time, supporting each other.

Yes.  Something that I will admit I struggle with, too, is asking for help.  Ask for help.  Someone – I think it was Brene Brown – brought this up in one of her books, about think about the other side of the help offer.  Like, I know when someone asks me, I love to help.  I love when people reach out to me and ask for help, so think about that next time that you’re asking.  Typically, especially the people who care about you and are around you would want to help you.  It’s hard for us.

And we’re not mind readers.  We often don’t know how to help, so it’s good to have that clear direction.

Yes, even for those five minutes to step away, I think anyone would love to help a new mother for five minutes.

Absolutely.  So Lora, what does it look like to work with you if our listeners are interested in moving forward with a consultation?  Can you walk us through that?

Yes, I offer free consultations, and that’s just us getting to know each other and making sure that we’re a right fit for each other.  From there, we’re going to talk about everything.  I mean, in order for it to be personalized, I need to really know what you like, what you don’t like, what you’re doing, what you’d like to do, your goals, your habits, your behaviors, where you see yourself in five years.  We go through a pretty in-depth analysis of where you are and where you’d like to be.  And from there, you’re going to get a very personalized plan.  We try to do it – again, I mean, that’s a lot of factors that I take into account.  So we pick out the big ones first, which usually means nailing down the sleep.  And I’ll tell you, I’ve had clients and I’ve read in several pieces of literature and articles too about people solely changing their sleep and seeing all these changes from it before even doing nutrition and exercise.  So that sleep is going to be a big factor for new moms, especially.  But I’ll do it in a way that you’re not overwhelmed because it’s a lot of factors, and it will be very personalized to you.  There will be constant feedback, constant communication, as far as, “Lora, I don’t really like this part or I’m not doing well with that.  What can we change?”  And then it will be consistent check-ins.  Some of it, depending on the needs of the client, will be that I will assess and say when we need a check-in, but sometimes client preference, too, as far as what works best for them.  It’s really a matter of getting to know the client, them getting to know me and my style, and figuring out how we can reach those goals together.

Love it.  What is the average length of time that a client works with you?  Is it a year?  Three months?  Or is it different for everyone based on their needs?

Right.  It’s a little different.  There’s three months, six months, and one year programs that we start with, and then people will renew, or some people will feel like, I’m good.  I feel like I’m good where I am right now.  And some of those people come back, too.  I always say I’m here.  This is up to you, what you feel that you need.  I’m going to give my feedback on where I feel that you are and where you need to be, as well, as your support and your coach.  But we have many ways to meet your needs.

Beautiful.  Any final tips that we didn’t chat about, Lora?

Something I always say is think of what you would tell your best friend when you’re giving advice – because we’re so hard on ourselves, you know, just as being a mother and trying to juggle it all.  Now that you have kids, think of what you would tell them.  Think of how you would tell them to make sure they’re taking care of themselves.  Now we’re always being the model for them.  They have such unconditional love.  They’re going to love you no matter what, but they’re watching what you do.  So if you’re not taking care of yourself, what are you showing them?

So true.  Excellent advice.  How can our listeners find you, Lora?

My Instagram is @lorae5.  It’s a mesh of personal and some professional tips on there, as well, but it’s important for people to know me as a mother, too.  That’s why I do that.  I have my website.  And then the Momentum Wellness Lounge, on Facebook, as well.  Just send a message that you want to join, and I’ll approve you and bring you in!

Excellent!  Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom with us!  Appreciate you, Lora!

I appreciate you!  Thank you!  I’m rooting for all you new moms out there!

IMPORTANT LINKS

APEX Coaching

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course

Buy our book, Supported

 

In the latest episode of Ask the Doulas, Kristin Revere discusses the launch of the Audiobook for Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby.  Alyssa Veneklase and Kristin Revere recorded the audiobook at a local recording studio called Centennial Sound and had a lot of fun with the process.  You can now order Supported: Your Guide to Birth and Baby on Audible, iTunes, and Amazon.

Please leave a review on our podcast if you enjoyed this episode, so we can reach more listeners like you!

Subscribe to our newsletter, check out Kristin’s birth and baby book, and see more about our Doula services & online courses at our website!

Hello, hello!  This is Kristin Revere with Ask the Doulas, and I am thrilled to share our latest book news.  As you know, Supported launched on Mother’s Day in paperback, hardcover, as well as the Kindle version, on Amazon and select retailers, including EcoBuns Baby & Co, and now we are releasing an audiobook!  That will be available on Audible and Amazon as well as iTunes, if you consume books the way I do in the audio format.

Alyssa and I recorded the book ourselves in a local studio.  Ben Zito from Centennial Sound was our engineer and guide through this process, and it was so much fun!  I hope you choose our book if you’re an Audible member or consume books on iTunes or Amazon.  We’ve got a preview of our introduction that we will share with you in today’s episode.  Check it out!

Are you ready for one of your most life-changing experiences?  We compare it to graduating from college, preparing for a promotion, or planning a wedding.  Big life changes deserve attention.

Our book, Supported, is your one-stop shop for everything you need to know about becoming a mother.  It’s created by two seasoned doulas with more than 19 years of combined experience who have helped more than 1,000 clients during pregnancy, birth, and early parenting. 

Focus on you and what you need as a new mother.  Make sure you eat.  Make sure you’re sleeping enough.  Trust your instincts, and ask for help.

Believe in yourself, and know that you’re going to be awesome at this parenting gig.  No matter who you are or where you live, how you choose to birth, or if this is your first or fifth, you have options.  You have choices.  Knowledge is power. 

IMPORTANT LINKS

Buy our book, Supported

Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas

Becoming A Mother course