Spirituality and Doula work with Sabia Wade: Podcast Episode #248
Kristin Revere and Sabia Wade discuss her book “Birthing Liberation” and discuss spirituality and doula work. Sabia is the CEO of Birthing Advocacy Trainings and a speaker, mentor, and author.
Hello, hello! This is Kristin with Ask the Doulas, and I am excited to bring back my friend Sabia Wade to Ask the Doulas. Sabia is the CEO of Birthing Advocacy Doula Training. She is an author. She’s a speaker. She is a thought leader in, I feel, so many different spaces, but in my lens of doula work, she is certainly my go-to. Sabia is also known as the Black Doula. Welcome, Sabia!
I’m glad to be here! I’m glad that we finally have some time to sit down and talk about some things.
Yes! You and I were both presenters at DoulaCon in Colorado, and your keynote was just receiving so many rave reviews, and of course, you had your book with you, which is all based on spirituality and doula work, and unfortunately, I was speaking at the same time, so I missed hearing it! But I got to get a photo and say hi before you left the conference, so that was amazing. I would love to dive into the topic of spirituality and doula work and hear more about your journey as an author and how you’ve been able to expand your message using books as a platform.
For sure. Where would you like to get started? I love this conversation, the topic layout so far. I’ll say this, too, as a note. I think sometimes when you are specifically a doula of color, sometimes people get caught up in only one topic that they want to talk to you about, and you’re like, I’m also multifaceted. So I really love when I’m in a space where we can really talk about these topics and not just trauma.
Exactly. And obviously, Black maternal health is a major concern. We are in Black Maternal Health Week, currently. This podcast will be coming out after, but I’m sure a lot of your speaking and podcast guesting is so focused because you are a major thought leader in this space. But I’m open to wherever you want to take the conversation, certainly. And I feel the same way, that doula work, both birth and postpartum, is very spiritual. It’s hard to explain the importance of the work unless you actually do it. Like when I tell friends about how it is such an honor to be in this space and how I need to be open and this moment can’t be duplicated, even if my client has five kids, so I need to be this open vessel as a doula and really hold space for them.
For sure. 1000% agree, and I think a part of this work and the value of a doula, too – I think sometimes we undervalue ourselves and the role we play because there’s so much conversation about how we’re not medical providers. We can’t act as a midwife. We can’t do those things. Those roles are very much important, for sure. And I think there’s something so special about the role we do hold as a doula because there’s something about it that is very holistic and, in a way, spiritual. And not in a sense of religious. Obviously, I’ve had clients that have been a different religion, whatever it looks like, but more so in the sense of spiritual as far as, like, wholeness. I think that we all are people and we all have these experiences and we all have our fears; we all have our trauma, our this, our that. I feel like as a doula we hold that and say to the person, it’s okay that you are existing in all of this. Something about that is healing as well as just spiritual in nature.
Yes. And it’s a rite of passage, so again, whether it’s baby one or baby six, it is still this major life occurrence that, in many cultures, is treated with reverence and celebrated, and it’s not just a medical occurrence.
Exactly. And I think that when you’re standing there too – I think my gift, as I’ve found myself as a person and as a doula, because there’s a difference, I think – the more that we find ourselves and the more that we work on ourselves, the more that we do our personal work, the better we show up as doulas, and the better we understand how our doula approach works. Because every doula is different, right? What we focus on or what’s important to us or our approach, the way that we talk, the services that we provide – it’s just different. And I think the more I worked on myself, understanding who I am, the more I’ve been able to show up for my clients in a way that is very transparent and also in a way that has more boundaries, even for my students. I think a lot of times in this work enmeshment is something that can happen so quickly. It’s so easy to feel like me and this person are one and the same because you’ve had similar experiences. A lot of us come into this work because we’ve had a child, right, or because we’ve had some type of reproductive health experience that made us realize, oh, this system is not what it should be. So we come into it, and then there’s this enmeshment and also this level of looking for healing in the work, which I don’t think that is bad to find a healing experience within the work, but when we make that our whole main reason for being here, sometimes that can transfer for enmeshment in spaces that we don’t want that to actually be happen.
Yes, 1000% yes, Sabia. I feel like doulas get into the work either based on a positive experience in birth and postpartum or a negative, and like you said, trying to heal trauma, trying to live out a better experience. In one of my doula trainings, I learned that we are not accountable for our clients’ birth or postpartum experience, and it’s not – I’m there to hold space and to support without judgment, but my role is not to fight the system or reduce interventions or if they want an unmedicated birth, to help them achieve that. There’s so much out of our control and out of our clients’ control. So if I go in with that act of service and without trying to keep perfect stats and save the world, then I end up being able to support in a more holistic way.
For sure. And I think too, naturally for me, I am definitely an anxiety girly. In my anxiety, understanding that my anxiety comes from different spaces. It comes from myself being someone who’s been in the medical space. I just had a hysterectomy, but that’s three abdominal uterine surgeries later, right? And I think there’s a part of us when we get into this work – there’s a part of us that we understand there’s a need for this work, so that’s very clear. The other part is that this work can be very triggering, for lack of better words. It can be very intense, and I think in that, all of us have anxiety because we all have really seen things. It’s one thing to have anxiety over an idea. Like, oh, maybe birth doesn’t go right or the experience is not good, but when you’re a doula, you’re literally in that space with people seeing things not go right. You’re seeing things in real time not be the way or you’re seeing outcomes, and not necessarily – when I say outcomes I don’t mean necessarily death as an outcome, right? Like, we obviously don’t want that. But the outcomes that we see are people who are like, I feel unsettled. I feel unsafe. This birth or this procedure didn’t go the way that I wanted it to. I’m having a lot of feelings about whatever. We see that all the time, and honestly, I think all of us, in my mind, we all build up certain anxieties and certain stress and certain trauma, like secondary trauma, and then that sometimes comes off as, now I’m trying to control the outcome of every client that I work with.
Right, and we can’t do that.
We can’t! Sometimes I think in that not being able to do that, it sometimes looks like simply – and I think there’s two kinds of ways that it shows up. Sometimes it’s like I’m literally trying to educate you, and you’re active in education, and then we’re in the birth room and things are going chaotic, and I’m feeling like it’s my personal failure that it’s not going the right way, even though I’ve done everything I can do. And then there’s also the second part, which I think a lot of people don’t talk about often. When you have a client that you adore but they’re just not listening. They’re not listening, and you’re just kind of like, why are you not listening to me? And then I feel like, I want to control this. Listen to me. Listen to me. But we have to understand that people are on their own path and they do what they want to do and they do what they know how to do. In that instance, if they’re not listening when we’re in the birth room, we try to direct or give as much as we can, but again, the outcome is not in our control.
And that’s very freeing. When I was a new doula, I kept the stats. I felt like a failure. There was so much weight on my shoulders, and when I was able to release that, I was able to be a much more effective doula and hold the space that was needed without that anxiety that comes with helping your client to make what you feel is the best choice for them. But it’s their choice. It’s their birth.
And it’s like, how do we hold ourselves, right? Obviously, this work is about holding people, and that’s great, but also, like, how do we hold ourselves? How do we as doulas, as care providers, as birth workers of any sort, how do we fit a team that holds us? Because you really can’t – I wouldn’t suggest doing this work in this one-sided manner where, like, oh, I hold everyone. As a superhero personality type like me, that’s not it. At some point, the walls fall down because you’re like, but who was holding me?
Yeah. And that’s why we encourage therapy and support groups for our clients, but I feel like doulas and birth workers, birth keepers, need it just as much. I know if I experience secondary trauma or loss, I am talking to my therapist and also my team of doulas are certainly there as a resource and we’re able to help each other process situations that are challenging.
For sure. And I think, too, for me, I have realized, especially even beyond my – you know, you have your doula pals. And your doula pals, they’re going to understand what you’re going to. They understand the things, and you’re like, oh, my gosh, thank you, I don’t have to explain this. But I think one of the things that is important to do is kind of require the people in your life, your partners, your families, whoever your family includes – also require them to learn how to hold space, as well. Because sometimes as a doula, you’re like I can go to my doula friends, but what if they’re not around? Can your partner hold space for you? Not that they have to understand every piece of what happened, but I think that we have to also as doulas – and I think that’s a hard thing for doulas to require people to hold space for them because we are the space holders.
Exactly. It’s hard to ask for help, and especially for the helping personalities, they want to serve, and it’s hard for them to ask for a listening ear or a hug. I find that especially with the postpartum doulas on my team, so many of them serve and then get depleted and then get so burnt out that they need to take a break or might have health issues. It’s a matter of slowing down, finding some form of self-care that works for you, and just like with the advice we give our clients and the resources – take them ourselves!
For sure. And I think, too, when we say that, finding something that works for you – so currently, I’ve almost finished my training as a spiritual director. And basically, spiritual direction is – you could even call it the spiritual doula in some realms because it’s really like sitting with you in spirit. There’s no end goal. With coaching, let’s say you have a business coach. The end goal is, let’s say, increase revenue by 10% by the end of the year. But with spiritual direction, there is no goal. It’s more so for me to sit with you while you’re figuring out things or whatever that looks like for you.
It’s so beautiful.
And I love it. I’m definitely being more open about it. Spirituality – I’ve always practiced or I’ve always existed this way in my close circle, but I haven’t existed this way more publicly. But I think the reason why I love spiritual direction is that when I’m talking with my different clients – and some of them are doulas. A lot of them are doulas, to be honest. We talk about, like, okay, well, what does spirituality mean to you? And I think, one, we always have to go over the difference between religion versus spirituality. But for me, I’m always like, spirituality starts with yourself, right? And I think a lot of us, just traditionally, by the different traditions and religions, we talk about everything starting externally. You have to go to church to be spiritual. You have to do this to be spiritual. It’s always these external things. But I think spirituality for me, it starts with you. What do you put in your body? Not what do you put in your body like don’t eat sugar. More so, what nourishes you? What gives you energy? What life force are you putting into your body that helps you? Whether it’s drinking tea, whether it’s drinking water, and whether it’s drinking a glass of wine. It’s whatever is personalized to you. And then also thinking about – if we’re thinking about food, what energy? What people am I absorbing? What do my surroundings look like? A lot of times, that’s nature. If you go to my house, my house has 30 houseplants. And it’s not just because I love plants, although I do love plants. But when I look at my plants, if they’re in bad shape, I know that I’m not taking care of myself because part of my self-care for myself is keeping my plants in good shape. I think for doulas and care workers in general, if we were to have a better relationship with ourselves and maybe see ourselves the way we look at our clients, to see them as these sacred bodies – like this is a sacred situation. They are a vessel of light, of whatever. And we don’t look at ourselves the same way. I just want to do more work around that to change that because we need to see ourselves as those vessels, like vessels of light, the same way that we see our clients as those vessels.
That gave me chills. Very moving. No, I hadn’t thought of our work in that way.
I think about all these things. Like, we could be here for three hours. I know we’re not going to be here for three hours. To know me is to know that this is how I am, right? But I think I’m being more publicly out there with this part of myself.
Please do! We need more of this! But it’s hard to be vulnerable, especially as a thought leader, if you’re known in certain categories, to break into yet another. But I don’t feel like this is a topic that is talked about enough, especially when it comes to birth workers and those that care for newborns and the importance of the work where we don’t have the village that helps in the first 30 to 40 days, depending on the culture. Women are feeling very isolated. It is a time that the caregivers need to fill their own cups and put their own mask as, as you say.
Exactly. But what does that actually look like? And I find that in my personal experience, I do see people in different communities I’m a part of who aim to create spaces of care for birth workers, and we don’t show up. And I find it so interesting. Not saying that these topics aren’t important, but for example, when we’re talking about more of the harder, traumatic parts of being a birth worker, people show up in numbers. And I want that – and I want people to show up in spaces of care for themselves, right? To me, I find that to be so alarming because yes, we are going to talk about trauma and all that naturally in the birth world because especially the way that we do birth work, right, it’s about systems and people and all that. But I see people, and it’s like, oh, here’s this kind of event. Here’s this, here’s that. And they don’t show up. And I also have this feeling of like our work has become so trauma-centered that we’re forgetting about the joy and the thriving and the beauty and the care and the community aspects that will actually keep us going.
Right. And it’s so essential. If you don’t have that community of support – that’s why I feel like when I was a solo doula, it was so isolating. Even if I had my doula friends in the agency that I created, there is that sense of community, and we support each other and we do continuing education. In fact, a couple of years ago, you did a training for my entire doula team on really focusing on trauma and equity and just understanding a lot of the diversity, equity, inclusion, and how that relates to their work, both as birth doulas, as educators, as postpartum doulas. But I am very intrigued by talking with and having our doulas have a training with you on spirituality and how they can really get to that next level so we don’t have the burnout in our industry that we’re known for three years and then you’re done. I’ve been doing this work coming on 11 years, and I’m one of the rare ones in my community that have stuck with it.
Listen, it’s not easy, and I think, too, one of the things I hope for the doula world specifically is, obviously, that we do more care for ourselves and understanding what that looks like for ourselves. And understand that it’s going to look different. It looks different for everybody. What fills me may not fill you, and it’s okay to have those differences. What fills you might be a specific religion. That’s also fine, right? But I also hope that we are able to start healing our money trauma. That’s the second thing. I feel like people have this feeling of, if I’m giving to my community, it can’t be for any type of financial gift or financial return. Building a budget for some people or building or asking for a certain amount of money for their time – it doesn’t feel good. So I really hope that we can help people to move that. And I think the other thing that I would love to see is the expansion of doulas seeing themselves as – how do I say this? I guess what I’m trying to say is, there’s nothing wrong with, obviously, being a doula, being very happy in your practice, doing one on one clients, whatever. But I think there’s so many different types of business models that can exist for doulas. And I think a lot of us feel the weight of, like, we don’t have college degrees, some of us. Like I don’t have a college degree. Our work is not seen as this valuable thing, so people seem to limit themselves and what their business can look like. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, it can look like so much more because you have these natural talents, these natural gifts, and these ideas; how do we bring it to life? That’s something I would love to see more in the doula world.
Yes, absolutely. And women doing women’s work. I feel like a big project for me was trying to get doulas to be respected in the business community, so I joined the chamber and got on some policy committees and became a B Corp to try to get the respect that I was used to getting in the corporate and political world, and that was my own agenda, but I do feel like doulas tend to undervalue and undercharge, and that is one of the many reasons they leave the work.
Yeah. And then it’s like when we look at the world that we’re in, right, where there’s all this monetization of doula work, right, whether it’s looking like the Medicaid process – but yeah, I think when it comes to doulas, right now we’re in this very sensitive time where I know a few years ago, when I started being a doula, even in 2015, people were like, doula what? And even now, I still get that reaction to some degree, but I think there is more awareness of us, especially because of COVID, I think. With COVID, it was like, oh, we need doulas because we’re getting into the hospitals; we don’t know what’s going on. It was chaotic for all of us. So I think to a certain degree, it’s a blessing that we’re known more, right, because then we also see different opportunities. Here’s the thing. I feel like there’s benefits to Medicaid, and there’s not benefits to Medicaid, and then there’s benefits to, like, hospital programs, and there’s not benefits to hospital programs. But the major point that we’re at – we are something that people are seeing as valuable enough to want to recreate or want to collaborate with or want to partner with or want to reimburse. The social capital and relationship capital when your hospital says, we have a doula program, right? We’re not going to say if that doula program may be good or not good, but there’s also health insurance plans who are like, we want to reimburse or we want to whatever. To me, that’s telling me that there is an understanding of our value, that we’re not just this thing. We’re not just like, oh, this is cute. No, these hospital systems, these major corporations, these things are like – even colleges are like, how do we get doulas in here because that’s what’s being desired, and that’s something that will bring value to us. But I’m saying that all to say that doulas are seeing that and not even equating that their value is higher than what they think it is. Does that make sense? If hospitals and these people, whoever, want to have doulas as a part of it, it’s because there is a value there, whether we’re saving money, saving lives, doing whatever. And so it bothers me when doulas who are actually doing this work don’t see themselves as valuable when these systems are saying, there’s value. Literally, it’s why we want to have you here.
Right. And depending on the state, the Medicaid reimbursement rates may not be high enough.
Now, they may not respect your value. They might not respect your value, but they’re putting you there for a reason.
Yes, and certainly reducing intervention, increasing patient satisfaction. There are so many studies on the benefits and advantages of doulas, and I am thankful, as you mentioned, for the awareness of the birth doula role. I think we are a long way off from the general public understanding what a postpartum doula is or a newborn care specialist and how an NCS would replace that night nanny or night nurse. And they’re becoming a credentialed industry of their own with postpartum doulas caring for the entire family and their client during the recovery process after the birth and supporting feeding and all of that. I’ve been trying to get as many opportunities to educate on that role because, as you mentioned, especially with the pandemic, birth doulas are becoming much more known, but I still feel like that postnatal phase is an area where our clients are getting neglected. With perinatal mood disorders and a lot of medical concerns that can happen after the birth and before that six week visit – it’s very concerning.
I mean, I wish that people had more understanding, especially of that six week period of how much goes wrong. I mean, obviously, there can be severe cases where people are dying from infection within those six weeks. People are dying from complications. They’re dying from postpartum eclampsia. Those kind of things, too, are very severe cases. But when I say, like, what can go wrong, I’m even talking about, like, a parent’s decision to not continue with nursing because no one’s there.
Right. There’s no support.
That’s the stuff that’s going wrong. Or someone, you know, had the beginnings of a postpartum mood disorder starting to be present, but no one’s there. I’m not talking about the biggest catastrophes that we see on the news, like people going into psychosis and harming their children. Everyone sees that. But there are so many other things that happen in that time that, if a doula is not present – not that families are present, but everyone has to go to work. We just live in this capitalist society where your aunt, your grandmother, whatever, they’re still going to work. And even the things that go wrong, it’s like a partner being able to connect with their partner because there’s no one there to provide the support that they need to reconnect. And now that is felt through the next year or two, whatever the case may be, to maybe possibly a divorce. Those are the things that, especially in postpartum work, I feel like a lot of my postpartum work – yeah, obviously, helping take care of the baby and the parent, but a lot of it was saving marriages.
I am 100% on board with that. I feel like we can save marriages. They can get time to communicate. They feel like their needs are being met, especially when the partner is, as you mentioned, going back to work very quickly, so they are both tired and stressed. It’s hard, often, for our clients to ask for help if they’re home and their partner is back at work. I know when my husband went right back to work the day after I had my daughter, he would come home, and all I would want to do is talk to him. I needed adult interaction, and he just wanted to relax. I was like, here’s the baby. I want to talk. And he needed some time. And if I had a postpartum doula – which they weren’t really a thing then. My daughter is now 13. In my community, there were very few of them, and they weren’t really promoted. I could have used someone to help care for me and talk to me when I’m dealing with feeding issues, which I did get support from lactation on, and having a baby coming home from the NICU and all the overwhelm that comes with that.
For sure. It’s quite busy. And I think doulas, sometimes you come into this work, you’re like, okay, I’m going to have a birth client, whatever. We’re going to work together for six months to a year, whatever that looks like. And then we’re going to have some type of relationship. But I think also the role of doulas of any form is you find out that you’re sometimes a lifetime buddy. You know, now you’re helping them make the decision or helping them to think through the decision, do they even want to have more kids? Right? Or they’re pregnant and they didn’t expect it and they feel a way about it. They’re like, I’m not exactly happy, right?
So many things.
I think back to that, and I’m like, who else would they have talked to?
Yeah, because, I mean, sometimes, some of these topics can’t be openly discussed with friends or family members, and everyone has their own idea of how things should be done. And it’s often well-meaning advice, but to have someone who is a non-medical expert in the home to be able to run things by and have that emotional support as well as the resources. It’s so helpful.
I think I love that part – I’m not that old, but in my life path, where I’m at now, I really love holding space for those conversations. I love holding space for the people who’ve had kids and they’re like, never again. Or who are like, I want to have ten more, but how can I do that, because there’s this social pressure that says that I shouldn’t do that. Because if you don’t have a certain amount of money and you want to have five kids, people judge you for wanting to have five kids and not being super well off. I love having those kind of conversations that require a lot of nuance and require a lot of depth, I guess, and just sitting with people and being like, well, what do you think today?
I love it, too. A topic that comes up at that six week appointment is contraception and family planning. So you do have to really sort some of that out. There is a lot of judgment on the one-and-done families of not wanting to add on, and also, as you had mentioned, the larger families. So dealing with some of that when you have a doula there to talk through, whether you want to be finished with your family, or you would like to plan for another, but how do you budget that? How do you work that out if you are working career-wise because, as you know, women get set back for each time they have kids. Advancements, promotions. It’s getting better as far as maternity packages and mentoring for women in business, but we’re not there yet. There’s so much work to be done.
There’s so much work to be done, and I think one of the things that we do as doulas is basically to say, like, you’re damned if you do; you’re damned if you don’t, so what are you going to do? What do you just want to do, because we can talk about the pros and cons of things for your personal health, your personal whatever, but I think specifically when we’re talking about women, specifically, it’s just kind of like – I think we hold space, and I think this is kind of the spiritual part of it, like we hold space for, what do you want to do? What does that mean for you in your life? Is that in alignment with you? How do you work through your fear of rejection? How do we work through this thing because as doulas, I feel like we want people to live whole, happy lives. That’s the place that we hold.
Yes. And feel like they made the best decision for them in that moment. Again, my goal as a doula, similar to yours – I don’t want to be the influencer or be someone who wants someone to give birth or parent the way I did or feed my children the way I did. There are so few people like doulas in that we don’t have an agenda. Even providers sometimes have an agenda.
Oh, yeah, for sure, 1000%. And I think to be fair, you know, not every doula is going to have the same approach or the same vibe. I think being a doula or being a midwife or being whatever doesn’t make you obsolete from harm, but I think that part of the work that you’re doing, part of the work that I’m doing is also creating more understanding of, ideally, what a doula would be doing for you. Ideally, they wouldn’t have an agenda. Ideally, they would be listening to you and what choices you want and giving you unbiased information on what those things can lead to or pros and cons and so on and so forth. And sometimes you don’t come across that. Sometimes you come across someone who’s harmful. But I think the work around that, whether it’s writing or podcasting or any type of media – it’s to put the message out there more so that when a birthing person comes in contact with a doula, they know what they’re looking for. They know what they’re not looking for.
Exactly, yes. So we are running out of time, Sabia, but I would love for you to share some of the top tips from your book. Let us know how to purchase that and how to connect with you in all of the different social media channels and your website. You’re everywhere!
I would say my biggest thing, and I talk about it a lot in the book, is that everything starts with you. So if you have a goal of wanting to be a doula, or if you are a doula, it still centers you. What is your well-being? What traumas are at the surface? What work are you doing for yourself? What do you put in your body? What are you listening to? What are you reading? All of it starts with us, just as much as we push that our clients are these vessels, we are also these vessels, and having that mutual respect for our clients and wanting to show up for our clients in the ways of showing up for ourselves. That makes us even better doulas and people in general, actually. So I would say that. And then Birthing Liberation, my book, can be found anywhere. I have no preference on where people buy it. As far as finding me, I’m most available and most social on Instagram. So @sabiawade. I’m in other places, too. Of course, my website is always the best way to see what’s going on or reach out to me for different things.
I know you’ve got book links there. You’re on Amazon. You’re in some bookstores.
I know some people are not purchasing from Amazon, which I obviously understand, so please feel free to buy or purchase wherever. And also, just a reminder that the book is available in audio version, because accessibility is important. So that’s always available for folks who would like to utilize that option.
Thank you so much for the important work you’re doing! I hope that, again, this focus on spirituality – and I know you’re torn in so many directions, but please keep getting that message out, and let me know what I can do to support you, Sabia.
Thank you!
We will plan to keep our conversations going. You’re always one of my favorite guests.
Thank you!
IMPORTANT LINKS
Birth and postpartum support from Gold Coast Doulas
Spirituality and Doula work with Sabia Wade: Podcast Episode #248 Read More »